Abortions: Should Women be Allowed to Choose?

[NoNukes]

No, you ignorant cow. They should as responsible people do and practice birth control.
Jesus Christ!..... You are dense.
That is why the OP's argument is nonsense.

And if birth control fails?

Sister, if we had to live in your world of "what if" and "but what about", we'd all be living in plastic bubbles. Our only human interactions would be with plaintiff's attorneys.
Abortion should not be for birth control. Period.
That WILL be the law here sooner or later.
North Dakota ha already passed a law that states a fetus is not eligible for abortion if a heart beat can be detected.
Having not read the entire text of the law, no doubt there are contingencies for health of the mother and viability of the child and of course rape.
Again, you have no standing here. It's none of your business. Worry about Australia.

Because North Dakota is always in the forefront of progressive thinking and action. As North Dakota goes, so goes America.

 

[JoeB131]

Women should choose their own birth control and they can choose to have an abortion. Then they can choose how they want to pay for their choices. Do as you wish, but stay the hell out of my pocket.

We'll do that when you stay out of my pocket for Wars for Israel and Corporate Welfare for big companies that move jobs overseas.

 

[JoeB131]

[

As you can see, the number of deaths via illegal abortion were falling long before Roe v. Wade and were nowhere near the "thousands" pro-choicers throw out. In fact, as you can see, Roe v. Wade occurs at the tail end of the downward trend. But, hey. Who needs facts, right? Roe v. Wade made abortions safe! (<-sarcasm, for those who can't tell). As far as the line that "hundreds/thousands of women were maimed by illegal abortions" well, good luck with that citation (because it's untrue).

What was that that Disraeli said about Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics?

The REASON why the number of deaths dropped was because Doctors were already disobeying the laws on abortion rather than let their patients take their chances at the hands of a back alley abortionist. IN fact, before Roe, most abortions were being performed in Doctor's offices.

Roe just legalized what everyone was already doing.

 

[paperview]

The year after abortion was legalized in New York State, the maternal-mortality rate there dropped by 45 percent -- one reason why legalization can be seen as "a public-health triumph" by Katha Pollitt

Abortion in American History


<snip>

"What was the point, then, of making abortion a crime? Reagan argues that its main effect was to expose and humiliate women caught in raids on abortion clinics or brought to the hospital with abortion complications, and thereby send a message to all women about the possible consequences of flouting official gender norms.

Publicity -- the forced disclosure of sexual secrets before the authorities -- was itself the punishment. Reagan's discussion of "dying declarations" makes particularly chilling reading: because the words of the dying are legally admissible in court, women on their deathbeds were informed by police or doctors of their imminent demise and harassed until they admitted to their abortions and named the people connected with them -- including, if the woman was unwed, the man responsible for the pregnancy, who could be arrested and even sent to prison.

In 1902 the editors of the Journal of the American Medical Association endorsed the by then common policy of denying a woman suffering from abortion complications medical care until she "confessed" -- a practice that, Reagan shows, kept women from seeking timely treatment, sometimes with fatal results. In the late 1920s some 15,000 women a year died from abortions."

 

[Dragonlady]

I think it's essential that women my age tell our daughters and our granddaughters what it was like when abortion was illegal. I remember the terror I felt when my friend went for an illegal abortion in the 1960's. Her brother assured us the man performing the abortion was a real doctor, but I still remember my overwhelming sense of relief when it was over and she was OK.

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US. But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever. Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it. Unless and until they do, they should not be telling others to do the same.

 

[koshergrl]

The year after abortion was legalized in New York State, the maternal-mortality rate there dropped by 45 percent -- one reason why legalization can be seen as "a public-health triumph" by Katha Pollitt

Abortion in American History


<snip>

"What was the point, then, of making abortion a crime? Reagan argues that its main effect was to expose and humiliate women caught in raids on abortion clinics or brought to the hospital with abortion complications, and thereby send a message to all women about the possible consequences of flouting official gender norms.

Publicity -- the forced disclosure of sexual secrets before the authorities -- was itself the punishment. Reagan's discussion of "dying declarations" makes particularly chilling reading: because the words of the dying are legally admissible in court, women on their deathbeds were informed by police or doctors of their imminent demise and harassed until they admitted to their abortions and named the people connected with them -- including, if the woman was unwed, the man responsible for the pregnancy, who could be arrested and even sent to prison.

In 1902 the editors of the Journal of the American Medical Association endorsed the by then common policy of denying a woman suffering from abortion complications medical care until she "confessed" -- a practice that, Reagan shows, kept women from seeking timely treatment, sometimes with fatal results. In the late 1920s some 15,000 women a year died from abortions."

Bullshit. Pollit is a poet and essayist, and a liar. The death rate from abortions today is higher than it was before it was legalized...because medical staff, in the name of "privacy", do not list abortion as the cause of the systemic infections and hemorrhages that led to death. Sometimes it's because the woman didn't share that fact with them, and sometimes it's from an admitted staff reluctance to indicate abortion.

 

[koshergrl]

I think it's essential that women my age tell our daughters and our granddaughters what it was like when abortion was illegal. I remember the terror I felt when my friend went for an illegal abortion in the 1960's. Her brother assured us the man performing the abortion was a real doctor, but I still remember my overwhelming sense of relief when it was over and she was OK.

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US. But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever. Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it. Unless and until they do, they should not be telling others to do the same.

The abortionists today aren't REAL doctors. They lack admitting privileges, which leads to the deaths of their "patients".

 

[Dragonlady]

The abortionists today aren't REAL doctors. They lack admitting privileges, which leads to the deaths of their "patients".

They lack admittiing privileges because that's one way that Republican administrations have sought to ban abortions in their states. By requiring that doctors who perform abortions have admitting privileges in local hospitals, which are bar out of state doctors from having admitting privileges, women are being prevented from getting adequate care.

Abortion is a legal procedure, but even so, Republicans have found ways to ban abortions. It's one of the many reasons why the Republicans have lost the women's votes.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

As you can see, the number of deaths via illegal abortion were falling long before Roe v. Wade and were nowhere near the "thousands" pro-choicers throw out. In fact, as you can see, Roe v. Wade occurs at the tail end of the downward trend. But, hey. Who needs facts, right? Roe v. Wade made abortions safe! (<-sarcasm, for those who can't tell). As far as the line that "hundreds/thousands of women were maimed by illegal abortions" well, good luck with that citation (because it's untrue).

What was that that Disraeli said about Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics?

The REASON why the number of deaths dropped was because Doctors were already disobeying the laws on abortion rather than let their patients take their chances at the hands of a back alley abortionist.

There's a reason the maternal mortality rate (that includes all deaths including abortion) was higher in the first half of the century than the latter half. Do you know why that was? I'll give you a hint; it has nothing to do with what you typed. The reason the number of deaths dropped via illegal abortions was because of advances made in medical technology from around the 1920s/1930s to the 1970s, which in turn benefited all surgical procedures. An illegal abortion performed in 1930 by a licensed medical practitioner was a lot more dangerous than one done in 1960, just like an illegal abortion done today is a lot safer than one done in 1960. But don't let facts get in your way. Continue laboring under the delusion that "more doctors willing to perform an illegal abortion = safer abortion".

IN fact, before Roe, most abortions were being performed in Doctor's offices.

Only pro-choicers dispute this, since they just love-- I mean LOVE-- to argue about back alley abortions or that other nonsense.

Roe just legalized what everyone was already doing.

False. To claim as much is to (A) be ignorant of how legalization affects an action's incidence and to (B) assume that Roe v. Wade actually lowered the abortion rate. When you make something legal whereas it was illegal in the past, its incidence goes up. This is true with everything, as making something illegal creates a deterrent where people who would otherwise engage in said action won't. To assume that Roe just legalized what everyone was doing, you would have to believe that Roe caused the incidence of abortion to decrease from (the oft quoted by pro-choicers ) 1.2M illegal abortions per year down to about 800K legal abortions the year after abortion was legalized. But who would believe that?

Abortion is a legal procedure, but even so, Republicans have found ways to ban abortions. It's one of the many reasons why the Republicans have lost the women's votes.

FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALSE.

Republicans always do well among White women, who are generally more receptive to abortion than are minority women. Republicans, however, do poorly among minority women, who are generally less receptive to abortion than are White women. Simply look at the 2012 exit poll to see this.

But don't let facts get in your way. After all, if it sounds good to you, it MUST be true, right?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I think it's essential that women my age tell our daughters and our granddaughters what it was like when abortion was illegal. I remember the terror I felt when my friend went for an illegal abortion in the 1960's. Her brother assured us the man performing the abortion was a real doctor, but I still remember my overwhelming sense of relief when it was over and she was OK.

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US. But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever. Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it. Unless and until they do, they should not be telling others to do the same.

True.

As well as what it was like for women overall during that time, as they existed as de facto second-class citizens.

Many young women today take for granted the lives they currently enjoy, unaware of the struggles and sacrifices of women a generation ago

 

[koshergrl]

Yes..I'm sure the women currently being raped and prostituted out are grateful that abortion exists. It allows them to make more money for their pimps.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

I think it's essential that women my age tell our daughters and our granddaughters what it was like when abortion was illegal. I remember the terror I felt when my friend went for an illegal abortion in the 1960's. Her brother assured us the man performing the abortion was a real doctor, but I still remember my overwhelming sense of relief when it was over and she was OK.

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US. But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever. Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it. Unless and until they do, they should not be telling others to do the same.

True.

As well as what it was like for women overall during that time, as they existed as de facto second-class citizens.

Many young women today take for granted the lives they currently enjoy, unaware of the struggles and sacrifices of women a generation ago

So here's a little fun fact for you. The group most likely to remember the "good old days" of back alley abortions (60+), are the least likely to support abortion. It's usually the middle crowd (30 - 59'ish) that are the most likely to support abortion, even though they'd be too young to remember the "good old days" (on account of being very young themselves or not born). Wassup wit dat!?

 

[Esmeralda]

I think it's essential that women my age tell our daughters and our granddaughters what it was like when abortion was illegal. I remember the terror I felt when my friend went for an illegal abortion in the 1960's. Her brother assured us the man performing the abortion was a real doctor, but I still remember my overwhelming sense of relief when it was over and she was OK.

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US. But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever. Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it. Unless and until they do, they should not be telling others to do the same.

True.

As well as what it was like for women overall during that time, as they existed as de facto second-class citizens.

Many young women today take for granted the lives they currently enjoy, unaware of the struggles and sacrifices of women a generation ago

So here's a little fun fact for you. The group most likely to remember the "good old days" of back alley abortions (60+), are the least likely to support abortion. It's usually the middle crowd (30 - 59'ish) that are the most likely to support abortion, even though they'd be too young to remember the "good old days" (on account of being very young themselves or not born). Wuzzup with that???

I’m very skeptical about this. Do you have evidence to back up this claim?

Maybe women in their 80s and 90s, but women in their 60s and 70s? I doubt it.

 

[Gallowglass]

Countries with universal health care, a social safety, cheap access to birth control, and mandatory sex education in schools, and a strong social safety net, have much lower rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion than the US.

Yeah, you know why? Because these countries have sub-replacement fertility rates. The collective population of Europe is ageing rapidly as not enough children are being born to make up for all the women who simply avoid childrearing via contraceptives or abortion.

But Americans don't want their children taught anything other than abstinence taught as birth control, so their children grow up not knowing about basic human biology and end up on TV saying women don't get pregnant from legitimate rape.

Nonsense. All parents that love their children have that special "Birds & Bees" talk with them when they judge them to have reached the appropriate age. Every kid develops maturity at his/her own rate, so it shouldn't be for the government to pound mass-produced sexual propaganda into their heads as soon as they hit puberty.

I just find the whole view of forcing women to have children they neither, nor can afford, as the dumbest thing ever.

Well, keep your pants up--or, if you insist on behaving like a tramp, use protection. In most cases pregnancy is not like some accident where the woman has no idea how it happened.

Children should be raised in homes where they're loved and wanted. Every man or woman who pickets outside of an abortion clinic, should be required to adopt an unwanted child and raise it.

In the words of that Confederate bartender from "Horse Soldiers",
Ah do that anyways.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Link

About Moral Issues > Abortion > Click on any of the links titled:

&#8226; Support abortion because of defect
&#8226; Support abortion for any reason
&#8226; Support abortion for low income families
&#8226; Support abortion for pregnancies resulting from rape
&#8226; Support abortion for single women
&#8226; Support abortion if woman does not want more children
&#8226; Support abortion to protect woman

> Patterns

Breakdowns by gender, age, race, demographic region, etc.

Data taken from the GSS, so you can't claim it's biased.

 

[BreezeWood]

Birth control pills, condoms, abstinence and natural sex.


they have the same effect as surgical abortion as the potential baby is never consulted with when they are decided.

Really poor analogy. In fact, it belongs in the "crap argument" hall of fame. Despite the desperate and perverted yearnings of progressives to reduce abortion to "birth control" and to de-humanize humans across the board (starting with infants and the disabled), contraception and abortion are NOT the same thing. A "potential" human in theory and an actual, developing human, are not the same thing.

contraception and abortion are NOT the same thing ...


the decision of Clergy to practice celibacy is the same or not to have sex before marriage is the same as abortion ... they are all decisions to prevent - "Birth".

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Two prevent contraception. One doesn't.

 

[Dragonlady]

Well, keep your pants up--or, if you insist on behaving like a tramp, use protection. In most cases pregnancy is not like some accident where the woman has no idea how it happened.

Nearly half of all of the women who have abortions are married or in a committed relationship and who already have at least one woman. They are not tramps or women who are amoral. We've read the hateful rants against premarital sex in this forum.

The whole notion that the only people getting abortions are sex-crazed teenagers or promiscuous single women is false. Birth control fails, some women can't use hormonal birth control methods, the condom breaks.

Prohibitions on abortion have always had more to do with shaming women for having sex, than they have been about any interest in unborn children. Even the people in this thread who are advocating on banning abortion, would provide no social services whatsoever for those women or the babies they claim to be protecting.

 

[Gallowglass]

Prohibitions on abortion have always had more to do with shaming women for having sex, than they have been about any interest in unborn children.

Depends who you talk to. While I don't think that premarital sex is neccesarily a good thing, my main objection is that the fetus is killed rather senselessly. I mean I can understand a woman not wanting to raise a child, but why not just give it up for adoption? There are plenty of childless people who would be happy to raise it.

Even the people in this thread who are advocating on banning abortion, would provide no social services whatsoever for those women or the babies they claim to be protecting.

I'm not sure what kind of social services would be appropriate in this case. Give the child up for adoption, go on with your life. No need to kill it, no further bother.

 

[koshergrl]

Birth control pills, condoms, abstinence and natural sex.


they have the same effect as surgical abortion as the potential baby is never consulted with when they are decided.

Really poor analogy. In fact, it belongs in the "crap argument" hall of fame. Despite the desperate and perverted yearnings of progressives to reduce abortion to "birth control" and to de-humanize humans across the board (starting with infants and the disabled), contraception and abortion are NOT the same thing. A "potential" human in theory and an actual, developing human, are not the same thing.

contraception and abortion are NOT the same thing ...


the decision of Clergy to practice celibacy is the same or not to have sex before marriage is the same as abortion ... they are all decisions to prevent - "Birth".

Then they are birth control.

But abortion is not "contraceptive". A contraceptive prevents .. you know, CONTRACEPTION in the first place.

Obviously, abortion doesn't do that.