Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[IM2]

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can

So this is the third time that I've posted this. What is so "terrible" about this legislation?

"take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin"​

They've been race baited and pimped to believe that affirmative action takes away things from whites.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Do you know any African Americans or have any as friends? And I don't mean the people you might see whenever you're at work, I'm talking about friends that when you were kids you spent time in each others homes? The reason I'm asking is that to me, it's pretty obvious that you as do many white American have no clue how hostile society has been and in many respects continues to be to "people of African descent".

I'm from Cleveland. Where I live is blacker than anywhere you ever lived.

I'll meet you half way: there were injustices done to blacks when it came to employment MANY YEARS AGO. But to say it continues today is something I totally disagree with. I also feel that AA outlived it's usefulness many years ago as well.

It also had negative ramifications. I remember when they used quotas to hire Cleveland police officers. One black cop was gunned down because he was stupid enough to walk in front of a window of a store where an armed robbery was in progress. He might be alive today if there was no AA years ago. A man was beaten to death in his own home during an invasion. The police were notified immediately, but the female officer didn't respond because she "supposedly" had menstrual cramps.

There are countless stories of female officers being subdued by a criminal and causing harm to the public.

So these kinds of things went on all the time. I remember them well because a coworker of mine was trying to get on the force. He never made it because he was white, and I would bet anything he would have made an excellent police officer.

It has been stated that Mr. Green had twice the number of flight hours than the white applicants who were hired. So in this instance a "less qualified white man" was given a job that rightfully should have gone to not just an equally qualified black man but a "more qualified black man". The fact that many this particular African American candidate, as well as many others were demonstrably more qualified/experienced is not unique however.

You are going to have to understand the times. I was only a child first learning how to walk back then, but I remember how the environment was.

There was angst against black people by whites in general. So did the airline discriminate because they didn't like black people, or were they concerned how their customers would react? Also, when you get out of the military, that's just the start to becoming an airline pilot. A commercial aircraft is much different than military aircraft. They often choose military pilots because of their experience, but flying a commercial airline starts right from the beginning.

 

[IM2]

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

Did I, though? Nope. I just don't think sons should pay for the sins of their fathers, unlike you. And the American justice system. Which is why I suggested you move to Africa. Why not? Surely you wouldn't be discriminated against by your fellow black folks. Hehehe ...

Let me explain something to you Shaw. These tired excuses you made have come to an end. It's time for you to be a man and face the facts. I'm here reading pages of racist crap from you punks and yet you sit on your ass talking about not being held accountable for the fucking sins of your fathers. Who in he hell do you think you are talking too? Your attitude is just like "your fathers", and until that's gone you will be required to pay for YOUR sins. Stick your suggestion up your ass. I was born here and my family has been in America longer than yours. So you move back to Europe.

 

[IM2]

Do you know any African Americans or have any as friends? And I don't mean the people you might see whenever you're at work, I'm talking about friends that when you were kids you spent time in each others homes? The reason I'm asking is that to me, it's pretty obvious that you as do many white American have no clue how hostile society has been and in many respects continues to be to "people of African descent".

I'm from Cleveland. Where I live is blacker than anywhere you ever lived.

I'll meet you half way: there were injustices done to blacks when it came to employment MANY YEARS AGO. But to say it continues today is something I totally disagree with. I also feel that AA outlived it's usefulness many years ago as well.

It also had negative ramifications. I remember when they used quotas to hire Cleveland police officers. One black cop was gunned down because he was stupid enough to walk in front of a window of a store where an armed robbery was in progress. He might be alive today if there was no AA years ago. A man was beaten to death in his own home during an invasion. The police were notified immediately, but the female officer didn't respond because she "supposedly" had menstrual cramps.

There are countless stories of female officers being subdued by a criminal and causing harm to the public.

So these kinds of things went on all the time. I remember them well because a coworker of mine was trying to get on the force. He never made it because he was white, and I would bet anything he would have made an excellent police officer.

It has been stated that Mr. Green had twice the number of flight hours than the white applicants who were hired. So in this instance a "less qualified white man" was given a job that rightfully should have gone to not just an equally qualified black man but a "more qualified black man". The fact that many this particular African American candidate, as well as many others were demonstrably more qualified/experienced is not unique however.

You are going to have to understand the times. I was only a child first learning how to walk back then, but I remember how the environment was.

There was angst against black people by whites in general. So did the airline discriminate because they didn't like black people, or were they concerned how their customers would react? Also, when you get out of the military, that's just the start to becoming an airline pilot. A commercial aircraft is much different than military aircraft. They often choose military pilots because of their experience, but flying a commercial airline starts right from the beginning.

The injustices continue now. Economic Policy Institute issued a report saying things are the same for blacks now as they were 50 years ago. Learn how to read such things so you are better informed. I have cousins living in Cleveland, I know you are lying. And do you know how many white officers die of preventable causes while on duty? White male cops died unable to get to crime scenes because they had heart attacks. Do we stop hiring white cops because of that? AA is not what you say it is. And if the CPD was made to hire blacks and women it was because they continued discriminating against them and breaking the law. That is the ONLY time any entity is required to hire based on race or sex. Get it Ray? When you break the law you must face a penalty. Understand?

We understand the times, you don't. That's the problem here.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The injustices continue now. Economic Policy Institute issued a report saying things are the same for blacks now as they were 50 years ago. Learn how to read such things so you are better informed.

And who's fault is that, whites?

 

[IM2]

The injustices continue now. Economic Policy Institute issued a report saying things are the same for blacks now as they were 50 years ago. Learn how to read such things so you are better informed.

And who's fault is that, whites?

Yes. Maybe you read the report before you ask dumb ass questions.

 

[dblack]

I think that, on balance, AA has been a good thing. I take issue with some of the ways it has been implemented, but I think it's been a positive development for society, all things considered.

I can appreciate the short-term, positive effects, of civil-rights law. And I can understand the belief that it was necessary - that the cultural damage of slavery was an existential threat to our nation, and called for emergency measures.

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can.

The government has participated in social engineering since July 4th, 1776. Until all sides are equal in every way, to include economically, we need to continue such programs.

Uh, yeah.. No. Find yourself a nice communist state.

 

[dblack]

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can

So this is the third time that I've posted this. What is so "terrible" about this legislation?

"take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin"​

Because it grants government the power to second guess our personal decisions, and force us to change them if it doesn't approve.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I'm from Cleveland. Where I live is blacker than anywhere you ever lived.

You don't know that - I've lived in both all black areas as well as all white areas and I hated being in both. But where you live doesn't answer the question as to whether or not you have any African American friends and I'm not asking to try to make you feel bad it's just that you get a different perspective on how people are more alike than different when you spend time with them as friends. And also because you seem convinced that the majority of black people are inferior to whites and that the majority of whites have been harmed due to lost opportunities given over to inferior and unqualified blacks. If this is not what you truly believe then I'm telling you, this is how you're coming across. And the reason we've still discussing this is because your perception that it was never needed and certainly not need now in 2018 is simply not true:

E-RACE AND OTHER EEOC INITIATIVES
Systemic

• In December 2017, Laquila Group Inc., a Brooklyn-based construction company, paid $625,000 into a class settlement fund and took measures to eliminate race bias and retaliation against black construction laborers. In its lawsuit, EEOC alleged that Laquila engaged in systemic discrimination against black employees as a class by subjecting them to racial harassment, including referring to them using the N-word, "gorilla," and similar epithets. The Commission also alleged that the company fired an employee who complained about the harassment. The consent decree also requires Laquila to set up a hotline for employees to report illegal discrimination, provide anti-discrimination training to its managers, adopt revised anti-discrimination policies and employee complaint procedures and report all worker harassment and retaliation complaints to the EEOC for the 42-month duration of the agreement. EEOC v. The Laquila Grp., Inc., No. 1:16-cv-05194 (E.D.N.Y. consent decree approved Dec. 1, 2017).
  
  
• In November 2017, after an extensive five-year, complicated systemic investigation and settlement efforts, the EEOC reached an agreement with Lone Star Community College covering recruitment, hiring and mentoring of African-American and Hispanic applicants and employees. The terms of the agreement were designed to enhance the College's commitment to the recruitment of African-American and Hispanics and to engage in meaningful monitoring of the College's efforts to reach its recruitment and hiring goals. The agreement included some novel relief, such as: implementation of a new applicant tracking system; establishing an advisory committee focused on the recruitment, development and retention of minority groups; hiring of recruitment firms; developing new interview protocol training; establishing a mentoring program for recently hired minority employees; and updating job descriptions for all college manager positions to require as a job component the diversity of its workforce.
  
  
• In August 2017, Ford Motor Company agreed to pay nearly $10.125 million to settle sex and race harassment investigation by the EEOC at two Ford plants in Chicago area. In its investigation, the EEOC found reasonable cause to believe that personnel at two Ford facilities in the Chicago area, the Chicago Assembly Plant and the Chicago Stamping Plant, had subjected female and African-American employees to sexual and racial harassment. The EEOC also found that the company retaliated against employees who complained about the harassment or discrimination. In addition to the monetary relief, the conciliation agreement provides ensures that during the next five years, Ford will conduct regular training at the two Chicago-area facilities; continue to disseminate its anti-harassment and anti-discrimination policies and procedures to employees and new hires; report to EEOC regarding complaints of harassment and/or related discrimination; and monitor its workforce regarding issues of alleged sexual or racial harassment and related discrimination.

There are approximately 100 additional cases listed here at the EEOC's website
https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm)​

 

[Doc1]

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

Did I, though? Nope. I just don't think sons should pay for the sins of their fathers, unlike you. And the American justice system. Which is why I suggested you move to Africa. Why not? Surely you wouldn't be discriminated against by your fellow black folks. Hehehe ...

Let me explain something to you Shaw. These tired excuses you made have come to an end. It's time for you to be a man and face the facts. I'm here reading pages of racist crap from you punks and yet you sit on your ass talking about not being held accountable for the fucking sins of your fathers. Who in he hell do you think you are talking too? Your attitude is just like "your fathers", and until that's gone you will be required to pay for YOUR sins. Stick your suggestion up your ass. I was born here and my family has been in America longer than yours. So you move back to Europe.

You po chile. Grow the fuck up. You nappy headed lil scamp. Shove your racism up your ass and cry to someone who cares. AA is racist to it's core.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

There was angst against black people by whites in general.

[Continued]

Good, the acknowledgement of the open hostility towards Black people by racist whites is a good first step.

So did the airline discriminate because they didn't like black people, or were they concerned how their customers would react?

The court case indicates that the airline was afraid that their racists white passengers would refuse to patronize their business if it became known that they had a black pilot. It also mentioned that because much of the southern United States was still segregated that this presented logistical problems because the African American pilots would not be allowed to stay in the same hotels nor patronize the restaurants that the white pilots were provided with, therefore requiring the airlines to find suitable lodging for it's black pilots elsewhere. Apparently that was more than they were willing to take on until mandated to do so by law as a result of Captain Green's lawsuit.

Also, when you get out of the military, that's just the start to becoming an airline pilot. A commercial aircraft is much different than military aircraft. They often choose military pilots because of their experience, but flying a commercial airline starts right from the beginning.

This is incorrect. In order to fly for the airlines you have to log 1500 hours of flight time in order to obtain your ATP (airline transport pilot license). If you've flown in the military you can use some of those hours to qualify for your ATP. I wasn't previously aware of this but it appears that military pilots can obtain an ATP with even less than 1500 hours.
Mil to ATP under the new system - Airline Pilot Central Forums

 

[rightwinger]

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

Did I, though? Nope. I just don't think sons should pay for the sins of their fathers, unlike you. And the American justice system. Which is why I suggested you move to Africa. Why not? Surely you wouldn't be discriminated against by your fellow black folks. Hehehe ...

Let me explain something to you Shaw. These tired excuses you made have come to an end. It's time for you to be a man and face the facts. I'm here reading pages of racist crap from you punks and yet you sit on your ass talking about not being held accountable for the fucking sins of your fathers. Who in he hell do you think you are talking too? Your attitude is just like "your fathers", and until that's gone you will be required to pay for YOUR sins. Stick your suggestion up your ass. I was born here and my family has been in America longer than yours. So you move back to Europe.

You po chile. Grow the fuck up. You nappy headed lil scamp. Shove your racism up your ass and cry to someone who cares. AA is racist to it's core.

Poor white males no longer have all the top jobs reserved for them
I realize how that ruined your life

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Because it grants government the power to second guess our personal decisions, and force us to change them if it doesn't approve.

Are you saying that each of us should be free to engage in unconstitutional behavior by which we deprive our fellow citizens of their rights?

 

[IM2]

I think that, on balance, AA has been a good thing. I take issue with some of the ways it has been implemented, but I think it's been a positive development for society, all things considered.

I can appreciate the short-term, positive effects, of civil-rights law. And I can understand the belief that it was necessary - that the cultural damage of slavery was an existential threat to our nation, and called for emergency measures.

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can.

The government has participated in social engineering since July 4th, 1776. Until all sides are equal in every way, to include economically, we need to continue such programs.

Uh, yeah.. No. Find yourself a nice communist state.

I know the truth is difficult for those like you to take, but it is what it is.

 

[IM2]

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

Did I, though? Nope. I just don't think sons should pay for the sins of their fathers, unlike you. And the American justice system. Which is why I suggested you move to Africa. Why not? Surely you wouldn't be discriminated against by your fellow black folks. Hehehe ...

Let me explain something to you Shaw. These tired excuses you made have come to an end. It's time for you to be a man and face the facts. I'm here reading pages of racist crap from you punks and yet you sit on your ass talking about not being held accountable for the fucking sins of your fathers. Who in he hell do you think you are talking too? Your attitude is just like "your fathers", and until that's gone you will be required to pay for YOUR sins. Stick your suggestion up your ass. I was born here and my family has been in America longer than yours. So you move back to Europe.

You po chile. Grow the fuck up. You nappy headed lil scamp. Shove your racism up your ass and cry to someone who cares. AA is racist to it's core.

I'm 57 years old. I've heard all the little racist words punks like you have to offer.You aren't doing anything to me by posting up ignorance like is. You'd be better served to provide peer reviewed evidence supporting your claims. And we both know you can't do that.

 

[dblack]

Because it grants government the power to second guess our personal decisions, and force us to change them if it doesn't approve.

Are you saying that each of us should be free to engage in unconstitutional behavior by which we deprive our fellow citizens of their rights?

No. I'm saying something you apparently don't understand.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Good, the acknowledgement of the open hostility towards Black people by racist whites is a good first step.

It wasn't that much of a acknowledgement. As an older white American, I seen it all the time in my younger days.

The court case indicates that the airline was afraid that their racists white passengers would refuse to patronize their business if it became known that they had a black pilot. It also mentioned that because much of the southern United States was still segregated that this presented logistical problems because the African American pilots would not be allowed to stay in the same hotels nor patronize the restaurants that the white pilots were provided with, therefore requiring the airlines to find suitable lodging for it's black pilots elsewhere. Apparently that was more than they were willing to take on until mandated to do so by law as a result of Captain Green's lawsuit.

Which is what I anticipated. So the airline made their decision on behalf of the company success and associated costs with hiring that pilot. It was likely nothing personal or racial.

This is incorrect. In order to fly for the airlines you have to log 1500 hours of flight time in order to obtain your ATP (airline transport pilot license). If you've flown in the military you can use some of those hours to qualify for your ATP. I wasn't previously aware of this but it appears that military pilots can obtain an ATP with even less than 1500 hours.
Mil to ATP under the new system - Airline Pilot Central Forums

Sure, I understand that, but the point I was making is that they just don't hire you from the military and plop you down into the pilots seat of a commercial airline. You still need much additional training and in fact, just because you can fly one type of commercial plane doesn't mean you can fly them all. You have to be trained on each model of plane you are flying.

 

[IM2]

Good, the acknowledgement of the open hostility towards Black people by racist whites is a good first step.

It wasn't that much of a acknowledgement. As an older white American, I seen it all the time in my younger days.

The court case indicates that the airline was afraid that their racists white passengers would refuse to patronize their business if it became known that they had a black pilot. It also mentioned that because much of the southern United States was still segregated that this presented logistical problems because the African American pilots would not be allowed to stay in the same hotels nor patronize the restaurants that the white pilots were provided with, therefore requiring the airlines to find suitable lodging for it's black pilots elsewhere. Apparently that was more than they were willing to take on until mandated to do so by law as a result of Captain Green's lawsuit.

Which is what I anticipated. So the airline made their decision on behalf of the company success and associated costs with hiring that pilot. It was likely nothing personal or racial.

This is incorrect. In order to fly for the airlines you have to log 1500 hours of flight time in order to obtain your ATP (airline transport pilot license). If you've flown in the military you can use some of those hours to qualify for your ATP. I wasn't previously aware of this but it appears that military pilots can obtain an ATP with even less than 1500 hours.
Mil to ATP under the new system - Airline Pilot Central Forums

Sure, I understand that, but the point I was making is that they just don't hire you from the military and plop you down into the pilots seat of a commercial airline. You still need much additional training and in fact, just because you can fly one type of commercial plane doesn't mean you can fly them all. You have to be trained on each model of plane you are flying.

Ray, every decision made by that company was based on racism.

 

[ATL]

No, and that's the crux of the problem. To people that have an agenda such as white nationalism, there is no such thing as an unqualified white when the comparison is to a minority.

Something wrong with "nationalism" ? Something wrong with being "white" ?

Evidently, something must be wrong with your ability to comprehend English. I said white nationalism, in which I used as a term, and not two separate words. Yes, there is something wrong with white nationalism, just like there is something wrong with black nationalism, both ideologies cause divisiveness and separatism.

Learn to read what is written and not argue something that isn't there....maybe that is the reason you were passed over on all those "internships", you claimed you missed out on because of AA, and not because blacks took your place.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You don't know that - I've lived in both all black areas as well as all white areas and I hated being in both. But where you live doesn't answer the question as to whether or not you have any African American friends and I'm not asking to try to make you feel bad it's just that you get a different perspective on how people are more alike than different when you spend time with them as friends. And also because you seem convinced that the majority of black people are inferior to whites and that the majority of whites have been harmed due to lost opportunities given over to inferior and unqualified blacks. If this is not what you truly believe then I'm telling you, this is how you're coming across. And the reason we've still discussing this is because your perception that it was never needed and certainly not need now in 2018 is simply not true:

Yes, I've had black friends and coworkers in the past. We differed on opinions many times when it came to race. Whites and blacks are as different as men and women. Two totally different people.

An example of that is a joke I make about when my neighborhood changed. I listen to the police scanner all the time. When this was a white area, the police would call in a person of concern saying the first name and spelling the last. Kind of like Arnold Kaminsky. First name common spelling, last name K-A-M-I-N-S-K-I When blacks moved in, it was just the opposite. They'd spell the first name and say the last. Kamisha Williams. First name K-A-M-I-S-H-A, Last name Williams, common spelling.

Sorry if you find it offensive, but it's funny and true at the same time.

As for your stories, I would have to research them individually which I don't have time for. I will say however that I suspect some of these suits are just lottery tickets.

Whites and blacks would joke around all the time about race on the job years ago. Some still do it today. For instance I used to have a coworker named Jewls. After Christmas, I would say something like "How was your holiday Jewls, did you have a WHTIE Christmas??? He would respond with something like "No, but if I did, there would have been a lot of ass kicking" and we would just laugh. We joked like that all the time. You can't do things like that today. Today, it might be considered racial intimidation and some money grabber would file charges against the company. At one time you used to be able to flirt with the women you worked with. Today, if you look at a female coworker with a half-grin, they would march to HR and file a complaint. You could even get fired for something like that today. It's a real shame.

Now as for any one of your stories that may be legit, I would say that our laws are working and it has nothing to do with AA. It has to do with discrimination laws that would be here with or without quotas.