Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[John Shaw]

You're a racist and an idiot. No one cares what you have to say. Thanks for playing though.

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

 

[IM2]

I've said nothing racist. But you are an idiot that doesn't seem to understand that Affirmative Action when it started was judged constitutional and never required quotas. Mandated hiring is not required unless after an investigation the business or institution has been found to be in violation of racial discrimination laws. To make it easier for someone like you to understand if there were quotas they are required because the entity required is still discriminating based on race.

Know what you are talking about before you squawk. Thanks for playing.

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

 

[rightwinger]

Affirmative Action has been great for white women. Done very little for anyone else. Personally, I am opposed to it, as well as all quota systems. They are a bandaid "solution".

They were necessary

Were they? Who were they meant to help? Blacks? The wealth gap between blacks and whites in the U.S. is nearly the same as it was 50 years ago. Progress has to come naturally. It cannot be mandated. And part (not all, but a not so insignificant part) of the reason blacks remain substantially behind whites and Asians in wealth is because they want/choose to remain segregated. You cannot force them to adapt and take part in the behaviors and communities that make whites and Asians wealthy.

In this case it had to be mandated
Blacks and women were just not going to be given the opportunity to access higher paying professions without affirmative action

Today, nobody even notices that these jobs are not exclusively white males

 

[RealDave]

The biggest effect Affirmative Action provided was giving an excise to all your Trumpettres as to why you never got into college & got a job other than Walmart.

 

[mikegriffith1]

I think that, on balance, AA has been a good thing. I take issue with some of the ways it has been implemented, but I think it's been a positive development for society, all things considered.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

 

[IM2]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Too bad there is more than one case. And the constitution was signed in 1787 but you still cite examples using it. You don't get to use that washed up excuse anymore. That's a convenient out to use when you know the shit you post is wrong and you've lost the debate..

 

[dblack]

I think that, on balance, AA has been a good thing. I take issue with some of the ways it has been implemented, but I think it's been a positive development for society, all things considered.

I can appreciate the short-term, positive effects, of civil-rights law. And I can understand the belief that it was necessary - that the cultural damage of slavery was an existential threat to our nation, and called for emergency measures.

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can.

 

[rightwinger]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Affirmative action today has evolved from what it was in 1963. When AA laws were enacted in the 70s there were quasi quotas based on population.
Today, the workforce has adjusted and AA exists in the background

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Affirmative action today has evolved from what it was in 1963. When AA laws were enacted in the 70s there were quasi quotas based on population.
Today, the workforce has adjusted and AA exists in the background

If that's the case, why should it exist at all?

 

[John Shaw]

Keep crying, baby. One day I'm sure someone will give a shit about your tears.

Another example of a white man suffering from psychosis.

Condoned any torture lately?

Have you ignored 80-90 years of whites torturing black people lately?

Unlike you, I'm not 90 years old.

And I'm not 90 either. So using that dumb ass comeback to try deflecting from the fact that you condone what whites did to blacks in South Africa is useless.

Did I, though? Nope. I just don't think sons should pay for the sins of their fathers, unlike you. And the American justice system. Which is why I suggested you move to Africa. Why not? Surely you wouldn't be discriminated against by your fellow black folks. Hehehe ...

 

[evenflow1969]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

At one time it was likely needed to level the playing feild how ever that trime has passed. Tiime for the most qualified now.

 

[rightwinger]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Affirmative action today has evolved from what it was in 1963. When AA laws were enacted in the 70s there were quasi quotas based on population.
Today, the workforce has adjusted and AA exists in the background

If that's the case, why should it exist at all?

It barely does
Most of the workforce is integrated and former barriers have been removed
AA has evolved more to a program to reach out to minorities and underrepresented groups and make them aware of opportunities

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Then there is no problem. Jobs also go to whoever does the best interview as well. If the black guy is more impressive, God love him. But same for the white.

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Affirmative action today has evolved from what it was in 1963. When AA laws were enacted in the 70s there were quasi quotas based on population.
Today, the workforce has adjusted and AA exists in the background

If that's the case, why should it exist at all?

It barely does
Most of the workforce is integrated and former barriers have been removed
AA has evolved more to a program to reach out to minorities and underrepresented groups and make them aware of opportunities

Well if they aren't aware themselves, then I would say it's an individual problem and not a race or gender problem.

Hell, even foreigners come here will little money and barely knowing the language and are aware of opportunities. It's why many of them came here in the first place.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Just saw this video in my feed and was quite shocked at the stats it puts forward.

At one time it was likely needed to level the playing feild how ever that trime has passed. Tiime for the most qualified now.

Agreed

 

[rightwinger]

Well this is what reason tells us but the reality is that there is racial bias and prejudice in all area of our society. This video discusses how difficult it was for African American men to obtain employment as commercial airline pilots (the relevant discussion begins at 1:26).

There are things that we know some of which have been proven in a court of law such as
1) the airlines traditionally gave preference to military pilots and even though the Tuskegee airmen proved themselves in battle the airlines still would not hire them. I don't know anyone who would try to state that they were "unqualified"
2) one of the airlines DID hire an African American pilot but didn't realize that he was black until he showed up for his first day of work at which point they tried to rescind his offer of employment. That was Marlon Green who won his job back via a lawsuit along with the pay he lost payable retroactively to his original date of hire. That was a huge win not just for Mr. Green personally but for every African American person who had been denied the opportunity to pursue a career in their chosen field of aviation or elsewhere.

Yet still the assumption is that 1) there is something suspect about black people applying for good jobs (such as they don't possess the required skill set or experience), 2) there allegedly are all of these unqualified black people applying for & obtaining jobs thereby depriving white people who are allegedly more qualified of jobs that they were entitled to, and 3) when black people do get good jobs, they couldn't have possibly earned them by working hard or harder than their peers, no instead they were just shooed into the position because of their race. Do you have any idea of how insulting that is? And don't get me wrong I understand that a huge portion of the population not only doesn't care that it's insulting but fully intend for it to be.

So here is Captain Dave Harris's video (). If you watch it or at least the less than 1 minute of it in which he discusses the first of them hired by the airlines, then I'll read the article you linked. I did skim it but did not read it in detail because I suspect it's something I've in the past. Then if you want to discuss our findings I'd happy to do so.

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

I never heard of the guy so I looked him up. This was back in 1963. Today is 2018.

Affirmative action today has evolved from what it was in 1963. When AA laws were enacted in the 70s there were quasi quotas based on population.
Today, the workforce has adjusted and AA exists in the background

If that's the case, why should it exist at all?

It barely does
Most of the workforce is integrated and former barriers have been removed
AA has evolved more to a program to reach out to minorities and underrepresented groups and make them aware of opportunities

Well if they aren't aware themselves, then I would say it's an individual problem and not a race or gender problem.

Hell, even foreigners come here will little money and barely knowing the language and are aware of opportunities. It's why many of them came here in the first place.

I spent 40 years working with Federal Government Contracts
In the 70s, language was very strict about meeting affirmative action goals and contractors were evaluated on meeting AA goals

Today, it is little more than a Certification of Compliance that you have an AA/EEO program

 

[Doc1]

IM2 is the epitome of the angry black man tilting at windmills. The only good Whitey is a dead Whitey.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Okay, so you found one case. I never said it didn't happen, but it was not as widespread as you may think.

Do you know any African Americans or have any as friends? And I don't mean the people you might see whenever you're at work, I'm talking about friends that when you were kids you spent time in each others homes? The reason I'm asking is that to me, it's pretty obvious that you as do many white American have no clue how hostile society has been and in many respects continues to be to "people of African descent".

What you call "one case" was the culmination of a 6 year legal battle that began in 1957 prior to the introduction of affirmative action and was decided in the United States Supreme Court which ruled that the airlines could not discriminate in hiring African American pilots due to their race.

It has been stated that Mr. Green had twice the number of flight hours than the white applicants who were hired. So in this instance a "less qualified white man" was given a job that rightfully should have gone to not just an equally qualified black man but a "more qualified black man". The fact that many this particular African American candidate, as well as many others were demonstrably more qualified/experienced is not unique however. The aforementioned Tuskegee airmen were required to fly twice as many missions as their white counterparts and I've yet to hear of anyone trying to claim that they were "unqualified" as pilots. Nonetheless between the end of WWII in 1945 and the hiring of Captains Harris and Green circa 1963 which broke the "racial barrier" they were denied the opportunity to pursue careers in aviation and not just commercially. We can readily identify close to 1,000 of them but even if there was "just one" as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. so eloquently pointed out "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere".

Filing a lawsuit and seeing it through each of the appeal processes all the way to SCOTUS is an arduous and very expensive process, the cost of which prohibits many people from being able to afford to have their rights protected.

THE TUSKEGEE AIRMEN
The African American Pilots of WWII
Before the Tuskegee Airmen, no African American had ever been a United States military pilot. The Jim Crow laws, a series of racist laws that enforced the “separate but equal” treatment of African Americans, were used as justification for blocking previous attempts by African American soldiers to become pilots. African Americans served bravely and with distinction in every theater of World War II, while simultaneously struggling for their own civil
rights from “the world’s greatest democracy.”

Although the United States Armed Forces were officially segregated until 1948, WWII laid the foundation for post-war integration of the military.
In 1941 fewer than 4,000 African Americans were serving in the military and only twelve African Americans had become officers.

By 1945, more than 1.2 million African Americans would be serving in uniform on the Home Front, in Europe, and the Pacific (including thousands of African American women in the Women’s auxiliaries)
.
The Army Air Forces established several African American organizations, including fighter and
bombardment groups and squadrons. Between 1941 and 1946, roughly 1,000 black pilots were
trained at a segregated air base in Tuskegee, AL. The Tuskegee Airmen flew hundreds of patrol and attack missions for the Twelfth Air Force, flying P-40 and P-39 airplanes, before they were reassigned to the 15th Air Force to escort B-17 and B-24 heavy bombers, using P-47 and P-51 airplanes. The famous“Tuskegee Airmen” of the 332nd Fighter Group became part of the 15th Air Force, escorting American bombers as they flew over Italy. As escorts, flying P-47s and later P-51s, they were responsible for protecting larger bombers from German fighter planes.

The Tuskegee Airmen flew more than 15,000 sorties between May 1943 and June 1945. Bomber crews often requested to be escorted by these“Red Tails,” a nicknamed acquired from the painted tails of Tuskegee fighter planes, which were a distinctive deep red. Sixty-six Tuskegee Airmen died in combat. They had one of the lowest loss records of any escort fighter group​

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can

So this is the third time that I've posted this. What is so "terrible" about this legislation?

"take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin"​

 

[IM2]

I think that, on balance, AA has been a good thing. I take issue with some of the ways it has been implemented, but I think it's been a positive development for society, all things considered.

I can appreciate the short-term, positive effects, of civil-rights law. And I can understand the belief that it was necessary - that the cultural damage of slavery was an existential threat to our nation, and called for emergency measures.

But as precedent, I think it was a terrible development. It has opened the door for a government actively engaged in social engineering. It's time to close that door, if we can.

The government has participated in social engineering since July 4th, 1776. Until all sides are equal in every way, to include economically, we need to continue such programs.