Aggressive suppression of forest fires has left the forests full of deadwood

[martybegan]

That would be why they almost died when they got on American soil without Native American help. Little did those Native Americans know what the cost of helping the Europeans was going to be.

No one said Europeans didn't manage forests in Germany. One weird thing about some of you white folks is that you seem to get jealous when another civilization does something good. You start jumping up and down yelling "me too". Its OK if I give another ethnicity some props for their accomplishments right?

A few groups almost died, then the rest of the hordes that came later had no issues establishing a foothold. How many groups died when the anscestors of the NA's came across the Bering land-bridge?

One of the things "this white folk" has an issue with is propping up certain groups with feel-good bullcrap that has a grain of truth to it with 10 tons of hyperbole. History is History, you dont get to play with it to make yourself feel better.

What you dont seem to get is that if those first groups had not been successful the hordes would have been either delayed in coming or never came at all. Where was there hyperbole in my comment? The NA's worked with nature and as a result this was a pretty pristine place to live before everyone else started coming over. Only certain types of white folk believe History is History as long as it reflects that they were superior. How many times have historians been caught in lies trying to promote European superiority? By now I would be questioning everything after the Columbus fiasco.

It wouldnt have stopped them, expansion is expansion, even if the first few attempts had issues. Open land is too much of a tempting target, and the land was open due to the relatively small numbers of inhabitants relative to land acrerage as well as the technogical inferiority of the inhabitants.

So far European technology HAS proven superior to everything else, it may not be what you want, but its fact. The only ones that came close were the Chinese for a while *and they were superior for a few centuries) but the stagnation of thier governmental model caused them to fall behind in the technological race.

 

[Asclepias]

It was pristine because there weren't enough of them to negatively impact the environment. Grow up. They were just people, just like any other people, and they still are. They did stupid shit, just like you do.

Thats not true. They had enough sense to spread out so they wouldn't deplete the resources and moved to other areas to let the resources renew. It was conscious decision making on their part. Who said they weren't people just like everyone else? Where was this written. Again its ok that white people didn't do everything noteworthy under the sun.

 

[martybegan]

It was pristine because there weren't enough of them to negatively impact the environment. Grow up. They were just people, just like any other people, and they still are. They did stupid shit, just like you do.

Thats not true. They had enough sense to spread out so they wouldn't deplete the resources and moved to other areas to let the resources renew. It was conscious decision making on their part. Who said they weren't people just like everyone else? Where was this written. Again its ok that white people didn't do everything noteworthy under the sun.

Lol, thats comical. Thier economic and techological system could not support thier numbers increasing past a certain amount. Do you really think they chose not to increase thier numbers to fill into their environment? Until modern times what culture tried to self limit themselves in that way?

And the ones that were nomadic DID deplete the reasources in one area before moving to the next, thats why they were considered NOMADIC.

 

[Asclepias]

A few groups almost died, then the rest of the hordes that came later had no issues establishing a foothold. How many groups died when the anscestors of the NA's came across the Bering land-bridge?

One of the things "this white folk" has an issue with is propping up certain groups with feel-good bullcrap that has a grain of truth to it with 10 tons of hyperbole. History is History, you dont get to play with it to make yourself feel better.

What you dont seem to get is that if those first groups had not been successful the hordes would have been either delayed in coming or never came at all. Where was there hyperbole in my comment? The NA's worked with nature and as a result this was a pretty pristine place to live before everyone else started coming over. Only certain types of white folk believe History is History as long as it reflects that they were superior. How many times have historians been caught in lies trying to promote European superiority? By now I would be questioning everything after the Columbus fiasco.

It wouldnt have stopped them, expansion is expansion, even if the first few attempts had issues. Open land is too much of a tempting target, and the land was open due to the relatively small numbers of inhabitants relative to land acrerage as well as the technogical inferiority of the inhabitants.

So far European technology HAS proven superior to everything else, it may not be what you want, but its fact. The only ones that came close were the Chinese for a while *and they were superior for a few centuries) but the stagnation of thier governmental model caused them to fall behind in the technological race.

Thats why I mentioned it would have delayed them. If the NA's had been against them coming however, there would be no way they would have been able to gain a foothold until way later.

Sorry European technology has lagged behind Asian technology for quite awhile. You can really call it European anyway when some of the advances were made by people of color. If you are talking about prior to coming over to the Americas all that knowledge was based on what was taught to them by the Moors.

 

[koshergrl]

And native technology has lagged far, far behind both. They couldn't get along then, as they can't now. There is no going back, there will be no great rebellion, and the white man is not leaving. In fact, most of you are effectively white now.

 

[Katzndogz]

The natives of this land seem to know a lot about managing the forest. They let mother nature do her thing and stepped in only when necessary. Too bad most of them have been killed off or absorbed into society. i wonder how much knowledge has been lost regarding stewardship of our forests.

How many Etruscans are left? The same thing happened to them when Rome did it. I don't see any boo hooing over them.

I bet if you asked 100 people about them maybe only 10 would know anything.

You might not find ten. America is particularly uneducated today. We are among the world's most ignorant people. Especially about history because "progressives" are rewriting history to suit their own purposes.

 

[Asclepias]

It was pristine because there weren't enough of them to negatively impact the environment. Grow up. They were just people, just like any other people, and they still are. They did stupid shit, just like you do.

Thats not true. They had enough sense to spread out so they wouldn't deplete the resources and moved to other areas to let the resources renew. It was conscious decision making on their part. Who said they weren't people just like everyone else? Where was this written. Again its ok that white people didn't do everything noteworthy under the sun.

Lol, thats comical. Thier economic and techological system could not support thier numbers increasing past a certain amount. Do you really think they chose not to increase thier numbers to fill into their environment? Until modern times what culture tried to self limit themselves in that way?

And the ones that were nomadic DID deplete the reasources in one area before moving to the next, thats why they were considered NOMADIC.

You do realize not everyone thinks like that correct? Most other civilizations understood balance and harmony with nature until European colonization. Nomadic doesn't mean deplete your resources. Where on earth did you get that definition? Nomads moved to follow migrations and seasonal wild plants. Precisely the reason they didnt deplete anything. They were too busy moving. Do you really think the NA were so dumb they used up everything in one area before moving?

 

[martybegan]

What you dont seem to get is that if those first groups had not been successful the hordes would have been either delayed in coming or never came at all. Where was there hyperbole in my comment? The NA's worked with nature and as a result this was a pretty pristine place to live before everyone else started coming over. Only certain types of white folk believe History is History as long as it reflects that they were superior. How many times have historians been caught in lies trying to promote European superiority? By now I would be questioning everything after the Columbus fiasco.

It wouldnt have stopped them, expansion is expansion, even if the first few attempts had issues. Open land is too much of a tempting target, and the land was open due to the relatively small numbers of inhabitants relative to land acrerage as well as the technogical inferiority of the inhabitants.

So far European technology HAS proven superior to everything else, it may not be what you want, but its fact. The only ones that came close were the Chinese for a while *and they were superior for a few centuries) but the stagnation of thier governmental model caused them to fall behind in the technological race.

Thats why I mentioned it would have delayed them. If the NA's had been against them coming however, there would be no way they would have been able to gain a foothold until way later.

Sorry European technology has lagged behind Asian technology for quite awhile. You can really call it European anyway when some of the advances were made by people of color. If you are talking about prior to coming over to the Americas all that knowledge was based on what was taught to them by the Moors.

Some areas did resist, it didnt do them alot of good. Asian technology stagnated around the 1300-1400's due to rigidity of their governmental system, and a strong desire to maintain the status quo.

Islamic countries were the bridge between the romans/byzantines and the renissance, but after that, its been European technology that rules our current world.

 

[Asclepias]

How many Etruscans are left? The same thing happened to them when Rome did it. I don't see any boo hooing over them.

I bet if you asked 100 people about them maybe only 10 would know anything.

You might not find ten. America is particularly uneducated today. We are among the world's most ignorant people. Especially about history because "progressives" are rewriting history to suit their own purposes.

I find that a lot of new historians are actually seeking the truth instead of going with the classic Eurocentric point of view. Of course the old guard is fighting it tooth and nail but DNA evidence along with carbon dating is pretty much killing all the old assumptions.

 

[Asclepias]

It wouldnt have stopped them, expansion is expansion, even if the first few attempts had issues. Open land is too much of a tempting target, and the land was open due to the relatively small numbers of inhabitants relative to land acrerage as well as the technogical inferiority of the inhabitants.

So far European technology HAS proven superior to everything else, it may not be what you want, but its fact. The only ones that came close were the Chinese for a while *and they were superior for a few centuries) but the stagnation of thier governmental model caused them to fall behind in the technological race.

Thats why I mentioned it would have delayed them. If the NA's had been against them coming however, there would be no way they would have been able to gain a foothold until way later.

Sorry European technology has lagged behind Asian technology for quite awhile. You can really call it European anyway when some of the advances were made by people of color. If you are talking about prior to coming over to the Americas all that knowledge was based on what was taught to them by the Moors.

Some areas did resist, it didnt do them alot of good. Asian technology stagnated around the 1300-1400's due to rigidity of their governmental system, and a strong desire to maintain the status quo.

Islamic countries were the bridge between the romans/byzantines and the renissance, but after that, its been European technology that rules our current world.

They resisted too late. If NA's had refused to let them set foot on American soil from the get go there would be no way they would have gained a foot hold until way later.

Like I said before current and past European technology is not what it appears since people of color have played significant roles in it. Most of the scientific advances were rooted in Egyptian knowledge. Sir Isaac Newton for instance got a lot of his theories from Egyptian knowledge. I thought that was common knowledge. Stay tuned for more to come out regarding the lies.

 

[martybegan]

Thats why I mentioned it would have delayed them. If the NA's had been against them coming however, there would be no way they would have been able to gain a foothold until way later.

Sorry European technology has lagged behind Asian technology for quite awhile. You can really call it European anyway when some of the advances were made by people of color. If you are talking about prior to coming over to the Americas all that knowledge was based on what was taught to them by the Moors.

Some areas did resist, it didnt do them alot of good. Asian technology stagnated around the 1300-1400's due to rigidity of their governmental system, and a strong desire to maintain the status quo.

Islamic countries were the bridge between the romans/byzantines and the renissance, but after that, its been European technology that rules our current world.

They resisted too late. If NA's had refused to let them set foot on American soil from the get go there would be no way they would have gained a foot hold until way later.

Like I said before current and past European technology is not what it appears since people of color have played significant roles in it. Most of the scientific advances were rooted in Egyptian knowledge. Sir Isaac Newton for instance got a lot of his theories from Egyptian knowledge. I thought that was common knowledge. Stay tuned for more to come out regarding the lies.

Ah, you are one of those revisionist historian idiots. Good to know.

Tell me, what overall governmental structure among the NA's would have been able to prevent Europeans from coming in? Oh, wait, there wasnt one because they were tribal and primitive.

Forgot about that.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Read the whole article:

http://www.perc.org/sites/default/files/Forest Policy Up in Smoke.pdf

Here is a similiar view to mine:

Forest Policy Up in Smoke: Fire Suppression in the U.S.
by Alison Berry

Property and Environmental Research Center

For most of the 20th century, U.S. federal fire policy focused on suppressing all fires on national forests...North American forests have evolved with fire for thousands of years. Fire returns nutrients to the soils, encourages growth of older fire-resistant trees...Decades of fire exclusion have produced uncharacteristicallys dense forests in many areas. Some forests, which burned lightly every 15-30 years, are now choked with vegetation. If ignited, these forests erupt into conflagrations of much higher intensity than historic levels. Grasses, shrubs, and saplings in the understory now form a fuel ladder, through which flames can climb to the forest canopy, killing entire forest stands...According to Forest Service estimates, almost 70% of federal forests (151 million acres) are in need of some fuels restorations treatment...Congress created financial incentives that favored fire suppression over any other policy. The Forest Fires Emergency Act, passed in 1908, stipulated that in fire emergencies the Forest Service could put any available funds towards suppression, and Congress would later reimburse those expenses. In other words, funding for emergency suppression had specified no limits...and swayed Forest Service Policy against light burning...It wasn't until 1970 that the U.S. Forest Service publicly acknowleged the ecological importance of fire, allowing some fires to burn under accepted weather conditions...The 1.5 million acre Yellowstone Fires of 1988 attracted nation-wide interest and concerns about fire management policies...The Forest Service has admitted the mistake in attempting to suppress all fires on National Forests...It would seem logical that a component of hazardous fuels reduction would also entail a reduction in wildfire suppression, but this is not the case. 'Though most fire ecologists agree that the Forest Service should let more wildfires burn, the agency argues that excess fuels make it too risky to do so'...Meanwhile, suppression budgets continue to skyrocket. The Forest Service's 2008 budget calls for a 23% increase from the 2007 appropriation (USDA Forest Service 2007b)...Aside from the money fire suppression brings into the Forest Service, firefighting is big business in many areas. 'A new fire-dependent class of government agencies and private corporations has accumulated enormous power and profits from firefighting'...Local businesses and federal contractors have come to depend on an influx of firefighting dollars. In sum, since fighting fires enjoys widespread support from businesses, property owners, Congress, and the Forest Service itself, only a small percentage of fires are allowed to burn unfettered on national forests. This risk-avoidance strategy is typical of 'bureaucratic myopia'--no politician or bureaucrat wants fire damage or casualties to occur on their watch. But suppressing fires in the present can result in greater problems in the future...It will take a shift for Congress to put a cap on reimbursement of emergency fire spending...

I was living about eighty miles away in Bozeman, MT at the time of big Yellowstone Fires of 1988. I went to visit the community of Glastonbury at that time (Glastonbury Landowners Association | Official Web Site), and whoa, there was thick smoke for 20 miles, even though the fire was still probably about twenty miles still further away!

PERC ? The Property and Environment Research Center |

LOL I just realized that the article I cited by the Property and Environmental Research Center is located in Bozeman, MT.

I lived in Bozeman for two years from 1987-9. I loved it there. A roommate of mine, who lived in the basement on S. 3rd for a year with me, was coincidentally working fighting forest fires for quite a while in that area. He had some wild stories and loved the work.

 

[Asclepias]

Some areas did resist, it didnt do them alot of good. Asian technology stagnated around the 1300-1400's due to rigidity of their governmental system, and a strong desire to maintain the status quo.

Islamic countries were the bridge between the romans/byzantines and the renissance, but after that, its been European technology that rules our current world.

They resisted too late. If NA's had refused to let them set foot on American soil from the get go there would be no way they would have gained a foot hold until way later.

Like I said before current and past European technology is not what it appears since people of color have played significant roles in it. Most of the scientific advances were rooted in Egyptian knowledge. Sir Isaac Newton for instance got a lot of his theories from Egyptian knowledge. I thought that was common knowledge. Stay tuned for more to come out regarding the lies.

Ah, you are one of those revisionist historian idiots. Good to know.

Tell me, what overall governmental structure among the NA's would have been able to prevent Europeans from coming in? Oh, wait, there wasnt one because they were tribal and primitive.

Forgot about that.

Is that really your best come back? It seems you are one of those that fell for the CC lie of discovering America.

Governmental structure? Its called forming a confederation. Sort of like the one that is responsible for the concept of our very constitution.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Money to Burn: The Economics
Of Fire and Fuels Management
Part One: Fire Suppression

by Timothy Ingalsbee, Ph.D.,
Director, Western Fire Ecology Center
American Lands Alliance
June 2000

With federal fire and fuels management programs currently costing upwards of $1 billion per year, there is a need for greater agency accountability, public awareness, and Congressional scrutiny over the federal 'fire shop'...Whereas Department of Interior agencies such as the National Park Service and Bureau of Land Management have invested time, money, and resources in developing new fire management plans, the Forest Service in essentially stonewalling public demands for new fire management plans. Claiming that it must first revise Forest Plans and change the Forest Service Manual, the effect is that land managers are refusing to implement the new Fire Policy. Thus, the agency continues to aggressively attack nearly every wildland fire. On a number of lightning-caused fires in northern California in 1999 that had favorable fire behavior and weather conditions for managing as prescribed natural fires, the agency responded with full-scale suppression..."

Read the rest of the article:

Money to Burn

This article makes it very clear that things are hardly changing or not at all, in regards to fire suppression.

Another solution would be to give complete control to landowners and local governments in forested areas with considerable dwellings. Maybe it could be possible to organize landowners on a large-scale to move into neighboring forests and clean them out themselves, while getting approval of the authorities.