Let's talk about the oft repeated phrase "a threat to democracy" we believe trump presents.

[pknopp]

Like assassination of US citizens without trial?

Yes. And I've spoke about that and condemned it often.

 

[Billiejeens]

It would have disenfranchised every voter of the state. Clearly you can't be claiming every vote in those 6 states was fraudulent.

That's not how math works.

 

[Marener]

I'll address it.

I don't blame Trump for seeking legal avenues to challenge the election. Plenty of reason it should have been challenged, but the courts were not interested in getting involved, and I'm not sure I blame them.

Once the states cast their electoral votes, though, that should have been the end of it, as far as actually trying to change the results of the election. So I fault Trump for not dropping it then.

But I fault Gore for trying to sue his way into the white house also. Difference is that the whole GOP and GOP voters did not claim that Gore was a Nazi, was a threat to democracy, would put all his enemies in jail, etc.

Nobody shot Al Gore.

Why? Because there was not that kind of over-emotional rhetoric being treated by the media as serious discourse.

Comparing Trump's actions and Gore's actions is a bit outlandish.

Whatever you think of Gore's character, his lawsuit sought to have as many votes counted as possible. Certainly we should agree that voters having their ballots discarded because poorly designed machines and ballots is not what we would want. I certainly wouldn't want my vote being discarded for such an arbitrary reason.

As for Trump's lawsuits, he routinely sought to have more votes thrown out than votes counted. It's a polar opposite. They sought to have the rules of the election changed AFTER the election. One example was a lawsuit he filed in Wisconsin that sought to have mail in ballots discarded in 2 counties. Just 2 counties. Which 2 counties? Ones that vote heavily democratic.

Trump files lawsuit challenging Wisconsin election results

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — President Donald Trump filed a lawsuit Tuesday in Wisconsin seeking to disqualify more than 221,000 ballots in the state's two most Democratic counties, a longshot attempt to overturn Joe Biden's win in a battleground state he lost by nearly 20,700 votes.

apnews.com

I don't respect this whatsoever. The good thing is that I don't have to respect it, because it's not a threat so long as we have judges who are committed to the constitution and toss the lawsuit, which they did. In this country, you have a right to file lawsuits that ask outrageous things.

When you say "that should have been the end of it", we know it wasn't the end of it. If you actually fault Trump for not dropping it, how do you support him now? He demonstrated a fundamental lack of respect for the constitution.

 

[Marener]

That's not how math works.

If you actually want to have a discussion, you need to put a little more effort into these responses. I can't read your mind. I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[jc456]

What specifically have I lied about?

Did you post? There you go

 

[Marener]

Did you post? There you go

Is that all you can say? Not very convincing.

 

[jc456]

I’ve never seen anyone from MAGA actually address this. The closest they’ve come is say it’s okay because it never really happened. Never once being able to actually condemn the sentiment behind it.

Then why did demofks create indictments to try and keep trump from running? Interesting facts that implies admitting it

 

[Marener]

Then why did demofks create indictments to try and keep trump from running? Interesting facts that implies admitting it

The prosecutors created indictments because they believed Trump committed crimes.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Comparing Trump's actions and Gore's actions is a bit outlandish.

Whatever you think of Gore's character, his lawsuit sought to have as many votes counted as possible.

His lawsuit was to keep counting the same votes over and over and hoping for a different result. Counting the same votes ten times, is not the same as counting as many votes as possible. When it is unclear who a voter actually voted for, that vote should, of course, not be counted. Certainly not by partisan vote counters hiding what they are doing.

Certainly we should agree that voters having their ballots discarded because poorly designed machines and ballots is not what we would want. I certainly wouldn't want my vote being discarded for such an arbitrary reason.

Yes, but when a state has a Democratic majority, the Secretary of State will likely be a Democrat, as was Florida's when thoe poorly designed machines and ballots were put into place. Put Democrats in charge of anything and it is bound to be fucked up. But that's another example of elections having consequences.

Nevertheless, however poorly designed, they were not designed to cause Bush to win over Gore. Every voter had the same chance to have his or her vote recorded properly, not recorded, or recorded incorrectly. The incompetence did not discriminate.

At least the machines and ballots did not discriminate. Once the partisans started hand counting, there was plenty of discrimination.

As for Trump's lawsuits, he routinely sought to have more votes thrown out than votes counted. It's a polar opposite.

No, it actually is not the opposite. Asking for votes to be thrown out if they were delivered in mass after midnight and counted privately instead of openly would have helped Trump, just as having a team of Democrats looking at bad ballots and deciding who to assign them to would have helped Gore.

They sought to have the rules of the election changed AFTER the election. One example was a lawsuit he filed in Wisconsin that sought to have mail in ballots discarded in 2 counties. Just 2 counties. Which 2 counties? Ones that vote heavily democratic.

They actually sought to return to the pre-COVID rules instead of the "emergency" rules the state executives put in place absent the legislature.

Trump files lawsuit challenging Wisconsin election results

MADISON, Wis. (AP) — President Donald Trump filed a lawsuit Tuesday in Wisconsin seeking to disqualify more than 221,000 ballots in the state's two most Democratic counties, a longshot attempt to overturn Joe Biden's win in a battleground state he lost by nearly 20,700 votes.

apnews.com

I don't respect this whatsoever. The good thing is that I don't have to respect it, because it's not a threat so long as we have judges who are committed to the constitution and toss the lawsuit, which they did. In this country, you have a right to file lawsuits that ask outrageous things.

Then how are you so concerned about a "threat to democracy?"

When you say "that should have been the end of it", we know it wasn't the end of it. If you actually fault Trump for not dropping it, how do you support him now? He demonstrated a fundamental lack of respect for the constitution.

No, he didn't. Don't be so dramatic. He went overboard in my opinion to avoid losing in the most corrupt election U.S. history. But he did nothing without being advised by his attorneys and so he did nothing illegal.

Why do I support him? I could talk all day about that, but it really can be boiled down to "America first."

BTW, at this point I must ask: Who is your choice for president this year?

 

[Billiejeens]

The prosecutors created indictments because they believed Trump committed crimes.

No.

They "created indictment s" (good term, )
because they wanted to keep President Trump from returning to office.

They even waited until then.

Democrats are very transparent if one just looks.

 

[jc456]

Is that all you can say? Not very convincing.

You’re a demofk, nuff said

 

[jc456]

The prosecutors created indictments because they believed Trump committed crimes.

Not until trump announced! Again, facts aren’t your friends

 

[Marener]

His lawsuit was to keep counting the same votes over and over and hoping for a different result.

But that's not actually true. There were thousands of votes not counted at all because the machines couldn't read them. Gore's lawsuit asked to count these thousands of ballots by hand.

Yes, but when a state has a Democratic majority, the Secretary of State will likely be a Democrat, as was Florida's when thoe poorly designed machines and ballots were put into place.

Nevertheless, however poorly designed, they were not designed to cause Bush to win over Gore. Every voter had the same chance to have his or her vote recorded properly, not recorded, or recorded incorrectly. The incompetence did not discriminate.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. It doesn't matter if the problem affected people indiscriminately. It's a problem that it affected people at all.

No, it actually is not the opposite. Asking for votes to be thrown out if they were delivered in mass after midnight and counted privately instead of openly would have helped Trump, just as having a team of Democrats looking at bad ballots and deciding who to assign them to would have helped Gore.

Not sure what lawsuit you're referring to here. The idea that ballots were delivered in mass after midnight is mostly a myth and any nugget of truth beneath isn't indicative of fraud. Votes were not counted privately.

They actually sought to return to the pre-COVID rules instead of the "emergency" rules the state executives put in place absent the legislature.

Changing the rules of the election after the people voted would effectively disenfranchise people who did nothing wrong.

Then how are you so concerned about a "threat to democracy?"

Because he went beyond just filing lawsuits.

No, he didn't. Don't be so dramatic. He went overboard in my opinion to avoid losing in the most corrupt election U.S. history. But he did nothing without being advised by his attorneys and so he did nothing illegal.

Why do I support him? I could talk all day about that, but it really can be boiled down to "America first."

BTW, at this point I must ask: Who is your choice for president this year?

I assure you, people who are advised by attorneys can and do violate the law.

Saying it is the most corrupt election US history is indeed very dramatic. The evidence of this "corruption" remains just a right wing myth to this day. Maybe you don't care about his attempt to disenfranchise people because you don't feel like he attempted to disenfranchise you specifically.

 

[Marener]

Not until trump announced! Again, facts aren’t your friends

Trump was under investigation long before he announced. The indictments were only a matter of time and would have been coming whether he announced or not (which he did very early, probably so he would have this talking point for the weak minded followers).

It's irrelevant.

 

[Billiejeens]

Trump was under investigation long before he announced. The indictments were only a matter of time and would have been coming whether he announced or not (which he did very early, probably so he would have this talking point for the weak minded followers).

It's irrelevant.

Every fact that you don't like is irrelevant.

 

[jc456]

Changing the rules of the election after the people voted would effectively disenfranchise people who did nothing wrong

That’s exactly what demofks did

 

[Marener]

Every fact that you don't like is irrelevant.

I provide an explanation for why this “fact” is irrelevant. Refute it if you can. Whine about it if you can’t

 

[Marener]

That’s exactly what demofks did

When? How? Where?

 

[jc456]

I provide an explanation for why this “fact” is irrelevant. Refute it if you can. Whine about it if you can’t

Missing paper ballots that favored demofks, hmmm

 

[Billiejeens]

That’s exactly what demofks did

Technically, and maybe most importantly they changed the rules right before they started counting votes, without legally changing the way they counted votes.