Alexis de Tocqueville and religion and politics

[Votto]

I was reading an interesting article about the political philosopher Alexis de Tocqueville regarding his views of the importance of religion in relation to democracy.

As many may know, Alexis traveled to America in the 18th century and was amazed at how different American culture was in contrast to European culture. That is, he was amazed that America had such a vibrant democracy devoid of an imposing nanny state he experienced in Europe. He then took to task trying to observe how this could be.

Philosophers such as Plato, Aristotle, Burke, and Locke, to name of few, all argued of the need for religion to supplant a free government. It was their view that without religion free government could not be maintained. And even though the Founding fathers in America created a secular government, they often reminded us of the importance of religion in the culture. In George Washington's Farewell Address, George Washington reminded his countrymen that religion and morality are the "firmest props of the duties of men and citizens" and therefore use "indispensable supports" of "the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity." He added, moreover, that morality depends on religion: "Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." Religion, he then suggested, is necessary to the preservation of "free government".

So why then did the Founding Fathers create a separation of church and state if they thought that religion was a pillar of society and free government? Tocqueville contended that religion is so powerful in America precisely because of the separation of church and state. Tocqueville argued that the union of religion and politics tends to weaken the citizens attachment to religion by tying it all to the dissatisfaction and animosity that is inevitably caused by wielding political power. An example of this would be the recent Pope coming out and saying that Trump was going to hell and then inviting Bernie Sanders to Rome for a warm embrace and hug and kiss. This does nothing but weaken the Pope's influence among those who may have differing views of both political candidates.

So why is religion so important to a free government? The answer is easy to see if a free government fosters a free people. If society was full of people who were amoral, their freedom would be used accordingly. To put another way, if society were full of the morality seen in most prisons, then how would one maintain a civil society if those convicts were free to do as they wished? The obvious answer is, the state would then need to impose a police state in order to maintain order. Freedom and self rule require it's citizens to restrict their own actions by some moral order, otherwise it must be done for them and freedom is no more.

 

[SuperDemocrat]

I argue that a moral people creates moral policies since any democratic system of government can't be vetoed by some all-knowing force that restrains people when they make poor choices. Democracy entertains every whim the people may have. That includes the bad decisions as well as the good ones. That is the danger of democracy and is the main criticism of democracy which is what happens when the people are wrong? What is it there that restrains them from making those bad decisions? The answer is nothing. A free government is like a free person in life in that they are free to make good as well as bad decisions.

 

[Votto]

I argue that a moral people creates moral policies since any democratic system of government can't be vetoed by some all-knowing force that restrains people when they make poor choices. Democracy entertains every whim the people may have. That includes the bad decisions as well as the good ones. That is the danger of democracy and is the main criticism of democracy which is what happens when the people are wrong? What is it there that restrains them from making those bad decisions? The answer is nothing. A free government is like a free person in life in that they are free to make good as well as bad decisions.

The US Federal government passes about 40,000 laws and regulations every year, and with every law and regulation, we lose freedoms.

Is society that "amoral"? More importantly, are we any better for it?

The gist of what Tocqueville was saying was that a free society must have some general agreement as to what is "moral" and what is not in order to prosper and even survive. For example, Bernie Sanders argues that we need a "moral economy". In other words, Bernie Sanders wishes that the state impose a "moral economy" by having more power over your pocket book to redistribute to the poor. Now in Tocqueville's day, society tended to take care of their own. Today, societies like the Amish, which are held together through their religion, continue to take care of their own. In fact, they are not even required to sign up for Obamacare. However, today society is all about the individual and personal economic wealth and now there are those who wish the state to "fix" this by more laws and regulations. As a result, society is now divided regarding issues such as these. As a society, we no longer see it necessarily moral to take care of those in need. To make things worse, those that think the state should assume the role instead of the individual are only interested in empowering the state to take care of the poor for them. Perhaps this is why those of faith tend to give much more of their personal time and money to charity than atheists who simply vote "D" who will force them to give more of their money to the state trusting that they will do it for them. But as we all know, the government spends only a very small fraction of their money "helping" the poor.

Another example is how to treat adulterers. Muslims in the US think that such people should be stoned and that adultery is "bad" for society. Then you have men like Trump brag about having sex with married women. You then have two different types of morality that creates a divide within society.

Perhaps slavery was the biggest crisis of morality the Republic has ever faced. It cost the lives of nearly a million Americans. It is a shining example of what happens to society when a country is morally divided. It was the opinion of Tocqueville that multicultural morality is a bad thing for society. Such a society will continually be at odds and struggle to impose their will via the law.

 

[Votto]

I found the article online.

Tocqueville on Christianity and American Democracy

 

[whitehall]

Don't blame the Founding Fathers. There is no Constitutional separation of church and state. The concept is fiction developed in modern times by a FDR appointed supreme court justice who was a former member of the KKK and allegedly hated Papists and Papist (Catholic) schools that were springing up during the 40's. The concept of "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. The best the (KKK) left can come up with to justify the modern version of separation church/state is that the issue was brought up in a letter by Jefferson. De Tocquivlle probably would have had little insight into the issue that has become the mainstay in the modern left's war on the 1st Amendment.

 

[there4eyeM]

Just for clarity, weren't the states in Europe at the time of De Tocqueville conservative, royalist, monarchic, authoritarian, highly centralized with an élite of wealthy capitalists and largely absent a middle class? Is that the definition of 'nanny state'?

 

[Votto]

Just for clarity, weren't the states in Europe at the time of De Tocqueville conservative, royalist, monarchic, authoritarian, highly centralized with an élite of wealthy capitalists and largely absent a middle class? Is that the definition of 'nanny state'?

Sounds like the US today, doesn't it?

When will the queen assume her throne do you reckon?

 

[Votto]

Don't blame the Founding Fathers. There is no Constitutional separation of church and state. The concept is fiction developed in modern times by a FDR appointed supreme court justice who was a former member of the KKK and allegedly hated Papists and Papist (Catholic) schools that were springing up during the 40's. The concept of "separation of church and state" does not appear in the Constitution. The best the (KKK) left can come up with to justify the modern version of separation church/state is that the issue was brought up in a letter by Jefferson. De Tocquivlle probably would have had little insight into the issue that has become the mainstay in the modern left's war on the 1st Amendment.

The Founding Fathers came from England where the state put a stooge in the pulpit to control the masses. This is what they were trying to avoid, and with good reason.

Barack Obama comes from a Black liberation theology which teaches that government redistribution of wealth is a Christian virtue. Of course, the left has no problem with such theology because they endorse such theology.

 

[there4eyeM]

Don't bring the LGBT movement into every thread!

 

[Votto]

Don't bring the LGBT movement into every thread!

I despise peasants such as this.

 

[Votto]

Here is a quip that has stayed with me.

"Settled, common religious beliefs about morality are especially necessary, Tocqueville argues, for “free countries.” Without such beliefs, men are faced with a kind of intellectual and moral chaos that renders them incapable of preserving their freedom. “When religion is destroyed in a people,” he claims, “doubt takes hold of the highest portions of the intellect and half paralyzes all the others.” As a result, each citizen comes to have only “confused and changing notions” about the most important questions—such as the nature of his duties to himself, to others, and to the community.

Confronted with this uncertainty about the highest things, “one is reduced, like a coward, to not thinking about them at all.” “Such a state,” Tocqueville concludes, “cannot fail to enervate souls; it slackens the springs of the will and prepares citizens for servitude.”[18] "

I think it describes the West in decline to a tee.

 

[Votto]

It would appear to me that the new Scarlet "A" for the now secular humanist culture is political correctness. It is either that or build more jails.