am i doomed to hell?

[JoeB131]

[
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

All writing 100 years after the fact, none of who directly met Jesus.

Let's look at the big magilla of these, Tacitus.

Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus

..the Tacitean passage next states that these fire-setting agitators were followers of "Christus" (Christos), who, in the reign of Tiberius, "was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate." The passage also recounts that the Christians, who constituted a "vast multitude at Rome," were then sought after and executed in ghastly manners, including by crucifixion. However, the date that a "vast multitude" of Christians was discovered and executed would be around 64 CE, and it is evident that there was no "vast multitude" of Christians at Rome by this time, as there were not even a multitude of them in Judea. Oddly, this brief mention of Christians is all there is in the voluminous works of Tacitus regarding this extraordinary movement, which allegedly possessed such power as to be able to burn Rome. Also, the Neronian persecution of Christians is unrecorded by any other historian of the day and supposedly took place at the very time when Paul was purportedly freely preaching at Rome (Acts 28:30-31), facts that cast strong doubt on whether or not it actually happened. Drews concludes that the Neronian persecution is likely "nothing but the product of a Christian's imagination in the fifth century." Eusebius, in discussing this persecution, does not avail himself of the Tacitean passage, which he surely would have done had it existed at the time. Eusebius's discussion is very short, indicating he was lacking source material; the passage in Tacitus would have provided him a very valuable resource.

Even conservative writers such as James Still have problems with the authenticity of the Tacitus passage: For one, Tacitus was an imperial writer, and no imperial document would ever refer to Jesus as "Christ." Also, Pilate was not a "procurator" but a prefect, which Tacitus would have known. Nevertheless, not willing to throw out the entire passage, some researchers have concluded that Tacitus "was merely repeating a story told to him by contemporary Christians."

Based on these and other facts, several scholars have argued that, even if the Annals themselves were genuine, the passage regarding Jesus was spurious. One of these authorities was Rev. Taylor, who suspected the passage to be a forgery because it too is not quoted by any of the Christian fathers, including Tertullian, who read and quoted Tacitus extensively. Nor did Clement of Alexandria notice this passage in any of Tacitus's works, even though one of this Church father's main missions was to scour the works of Pagan writers in order to find validity for Christianity. As noted, the Church historian Eusebius, who likely forged the Testimonium Flavianum, does not relate this Tacitus passage in his abundant writings. Indeed, no mention is made of this passage in any known text prior to the 15th century.

 

[ding]

[
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

All writing 100 years after the fact, none of who directly met Jesus.

Let's look at the big magilla of these, Tacitus.

Pliny, Tacitus and Suetonius: No Proof of Jesus

..the Tacitean passage next states that these fire-setting agitators were followers of "Christus" (Christos), who, in the reign of Tiberius, "was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate." The passage also recounts that the Christians, who constituted a "vast multitude at Rome," were then sought after and executed in ghastly manners, including by crucifixion. However, the date that a "vast multitude" of Christians was discovered and executed would be around 64 CE, and it is evident that there was no "vast multitude" of Christians at Rome by this time, as there were not even a multitude of them in Judea. Oddly, this brief mention of Christians is all there is in the voluminous works of Tacitus regarding this extraordinary movement, which allegedly possessed such power as to be able to burn Rome. Also, the Neronian persecution of Christians is unrecorded by any other historian of the day and supposedly took place at the very time when Paul was purportedly freely preaching at Rome (Acts 28:30-31), facts that cast strong doubt on whether or not it actually happened. Drews concludes that the Neronian persecution is likely "nothing but the product of a Christian's imagination in the fifth century." Eusebius, in discussing this persecution, does not avail himself of the Tacitean passage, which he surely would have done had it existed at the time. Eusebius's discussion is very short, indicating he was lacking source material; the passage in Tacitus would have provided him a very valuable resource.

Even conservative writers such as James Still have problems with the authenticity of the Tacitus passage: For one, Tacitus was an imperial writer, and no imperial document would ever refer to Jesus as "Christ." Also, Pilate was not a "procurator" but a prefect, which Tacitus would have known. Nevertheless, not willing to throw out the entire passage, some researchers have concluded that Tacitus "was merely repeating a story told to him by contemporary Christians."

Based on these and other facts, several scholars have argued that, even if the Annals themselves were genuine, the passage regarding Jesus was spurious. One of these authorities was Rev. Taylor, who suspected the passage to be a forgery because it too is not quoted by any of the Christian fathers, including Tertullian, who read and quoted Tacitus extensively. Nor did Clement of Alexandria notice this passage in any of Tacitus's works, even though one of this Church father's main missions was to scour the works of Pagan writers in order to find validity for Christianity. As noted, the Church historian Eusebius, who likely forged the Testimonium Flavianum, does not relate this Tacitus passage in his abundant writings. Indeed, no mention is made of this passage in any known text prior to the 15th century.

That was fully addressed in the link I provided, Joey.

The reason you don’t want to admit Jesus existed - which is a ridiculous claim BTW - is that it would force you to argue against his resurrection to confirm your bias that the material world wasn’t created by spirit.

In a 1929 interview in the Saturday Evening Post, Albert Einstein was asked if he believed in the historical Jesus and he replied:

Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.

Did He Or Didn't He? Jewish Views of the Resurrection of Jesus • Jews for Jesus

 

[froggy]

Early Christians wrote about him, Jewish historians wrote about him and secular historians wrote about him.

People wrote about Captain Kirk and Indiana Jones... did that make them real?

Actually, there are no writings about Jesus before the Third Century, and most of the attributions like Tacitus and Josephus are suspected of being later writers inserting text. (As all texts were hand copied before the invention of printing presses.)

For instance, Tacitus says Nero blamed the Christians for the Great Fire in Rome. But this is not mentioned in Suetonius and Dio Cassius. Kind of an important detail to miss, don't you think?

Further, when Pliny the Younger wrote Emperor Trajan for instructions on what to do with Christians when he caught them. (Christians not necessarily meaning followers of Jesus) Trajan recommends being lenient with them. Really? The guys who started the Great fire? This is like someone in 2040 being lenient with ISIS members.

Yes Indiana Jones real name was Roy Chapman Andrews

 

[danielpalos]

...only women with lousy female intuition get used by all of the other ones instead of make appointments for full body massage with a mostly nice guy who is honest about it.

 

[hobelim]

Abiding by the law was a way to get to heaven before Jesus Christ. So come Judgment Day all who lived under the law will be judged by the way they acted the good they done but after Jesus Christ died on the cross and paid our sin with the blood now we are no longer under the law we can only get to Heaven if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

I heard that come judgment day, the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

If you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you wouldn't be sleeping in the grave of idolatry, you would be on your way to meet Jesus in the midst of the clouds that have obscured him from sight for more than 2000 years and you would conform to the instruction of the law, the only way to eternal life, in light of the revelation of Jesus with full comprehension and an intimate knowledge and keen awareness of the cost.

So get on with it already. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.You have a lot of work to do but if you waste your time arguing with me all of your work will be in vain and you will forfeit the salvation that you have been deceived into believing that you have in the bag already without even lifting a finger.

Worry about yourself.

You worry about Christians. Which is odd.

What's odd is you thinking that I am worried about Christians.

When you make a ridiculous claim like "The universe was created so that God can experience the material world through us", (something that I have never heard any other Christian say), and I point out how that irrational statement and your consistent use of "we" and "us" is like the mark of the beast on your forehead , it doesn't mean that I am worried about you or Christians or anything dingbat, even if you have been assimilated by the Borg.

If you were trying to steal from the candy store on the way to church and the owner said, " What did you put in your pocket you little rat bastard," would that mean that he was worried about something? lol..

pft.

 

[JoeB131]

That was fully addressed in the link I provided, Joey.

The reason you don’t want to admit Jesus existed - which is a ridiculous claim BTW - is that it would force you to argue against his resurrection to confirm your bias that the material world wasn’t created by spirit.

No, it really wasn't.

Yes, the absolute absurdity of a guy coming back to life is made even more laughable by the fact he didn't exist to start with.

 

[ding]

Abiding by the law was a way to get to heaven before Jesus Christ. So come Judgment Day all who lived under the law will be judged by the way they acted the good they done but after Jesus Christ died on the cross and paid our sin with the blood now we are no longer under the law we can only get to Heaven if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

I heard that come judgment day, the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

If you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you wouldn't be sleeping in the grave of idolatry, you would be on your way to meet Jesus in the midst of the clouds that have obscured him from sight for more than 2000 years and you would conform to the instruction of the law, the only way to eternal life, in light of the revelation of Jesus with full comprehension and an intimate knowledge and keen awareness of the cost.

So get on with it already. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.You have a lot of work to do but if you waste your time arguing with me all of your work will be in vain and you will forfeit the salvation that you have been deceived into believing that you have in the bag already without even lifting a finger.

Worry about yourself.

You worry about Christians. Which is odd.

What's odd is you thinking that I am worried about Christians.

When you make a ridiculous claim like "The universe was created so that God can experience the material world through us", (something that I have never heard any other Christian say), and I point out how that irrational statement and your consistent use of "we" and "us" is like the mark of the beast on your forehead , it doesn't mean that I am worried about you or Christians or anything dingbat, even if you have been assimilated by the Borg.

If you were trying to steal from the candy store on the way to church and the owner said, " What did you put in your pocket you little rat bastard," would that mean that he was worried about something? lol..

pft.

You only evangelize Christians. You must really worry for their souls. It probably keeps you up at night.

You aren’t the candy store owner. No one is stealing anything from you.

So since you only evangelize Christians and since you aren’t the candy store owner what other reason can you possibly have besides worrying for their souls?

Preach on, brother.

 

[ding]

That was fully addressed in the link I provided, Joey.

The reason you don’t want to admit Jesus existed - which is a ridiculous claim BTW - is that it would force you to argue against his resurrection to confirm your bias that the material world wasn’t created by spirit.

No, it really wasn't.

Yes, the absolute absurdity of a guy coming back to life is made even more laughable by the fact he didn't exist to start with.

You must not have read it, Joey.

The only absurdity I can see is you wasting your time discussing something you don’t believe in.

 

[Toro]

All you need to do, no matter how bad of a person you’ve been in your life, is repent on your deathbed and accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you get into heaven.

This is why I’m a Christian.

 

[danielpalos]

...not if there are nice girls to be found in modern times!

 

[hobelim]

I heard that come judgment day, the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

If you believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you wouldn't be sleeping in the grave of idolatry, you would be on your way to meet Jesus in the midst of the clouds that have obscured him from sight for more than 2000 years and you would conform to the instruction of the law, the only way to eternal life, in light of the revelation of Jesus with full comprehension and an intimate knowledge and keen awareness of the cost.

So get on with it already. You are caught between a rock and a hard place.You have a lot of work to do but if you waste your time arguing with me all of your work will be in vain and you will forfeit the salvation that you have been deceived into believing that you have in the bag already without even lifting a finger.

Worry about yourself.

You worry about Christians. Which is odd.

What's odd is you thinking that I am worried about Christians.

When you make a ridiculous claim like "The universe was created so that God can experience the material world through us", (something that I have never heard any other Christian say), and I point out how that irrational statement and your consistent use of "we" and "us" is like the mark of the beast on your forehead , it doesn't mean that I am worried about you or Christians or anything dingbat, even if you have been assimilated by the Borg.

If you were trying to steal from the candy store on the way to church and the owner said, " What did you put in your pocket you little rat bastard," would that mean that he was worried about something? lol..

pft.

You only evangelize Christians. You must really worry for their souls. It probably keeps you up at night.

You aren’t the candy store owner. No one is stealing anything from you.

So since you only evangelize Christians and since you aren’t the candy store owner what other reason can you possibly have besides worrying for their souls?

Preach on, brother.

Oy. There you go again. You think that I am trying to save your soul. Thats very cute.

What is actually going on is that you were found dead in an alley rotting under a pile of trash clutching a teddy bear with a binky in your mouth and the signs of a prolific serial killer on your sexually defiled and mutilated maggot infested corpse.

Someone dropped you off at the morgue so I picked you up, strapped you to a gurney and brought you to the institute where you are being dissected in a open arena for the benefit of medical students and officers of the Law to determine your cause of death and discover irrefutable scientific evidence that will expose the murderer and put an end to his reign of terror..

So don't you worry little fella. The investigation is under way. Evidence is being collected, a host of dedicated professionals are jotting down notes. I'm gonna make sure that sadistic psycho killer who did all that horrible and sick stuff to you when you were just a tender and supple little boy is taken off the streets for good!

 

[TNHarley]

I dont doubt jesus existed, i think all that shit his whore mother shoved down his throat probably developed him a mental illness. Not his fault

 

[ding]

Worry about yourself.

You worry about Christians. Which is odd.

What's odd is you thinking that I am worried about Christians.

When you make a ridiculous claim like "The universe was created so that God can experience the material world through us", (something that I have never heard any other Christian say), and I point out how that irrational statement and your consistent use of "we" and "us" is like the mark of the beast on your forehead , it doesn't mean that I am worried about you or Christians or anything dingbat, even if you have been assimilated by the Borg.

If you were trying to steal from the candy store on the way to church and the owner said, " What did you put in your pocket you little rat bastard," would that mean that he was worried about something? lol..

pft.

You only evangelize Christians. You must really worry for their souls. It probably keeps you up at night.

You aren’t the candy store owner. No one is stealing anything from you.

So since you only evangelize Christians and since you aren’t the candy store owner what other reason can you possibly have besides worrying for their souls?

Preach on, brother.

Oy. There you go again. You think that I am trying to save your soul. Thats very cute.

What is actually going on is that you were found dead in an alley rotting under a pile of trash clutching a teddy bear with a binky in your mouth and the signs of a prolific serial killer on your sexually defiled and mutilated maggot infested corpse.

Someone dropped you off at the morgue so I picked you up, strapped you to a gurney and brought you to the institute where you are being dissected in a open arena for the benefit of medical students and officers of the Law to determine your cause of death and discover irrefutable scientific evidence that will expose the murderer and put an end to his reign of terror..

So don't you worry little fella. The investigation is under way. Evidence is being collected, a host of dedicated professionals are jotting down notes. I'm gonna make sure that sadistic psycho killer who did all that horrible and sick stuff to you when you were just a tender and supple little boy is taken off the streets for good!

Preach on, brother!

 

[ding]

I dont doubt jesus existed, i think all that shit his whore mother shoved down his throat probably developed him a mental illness. Not his fault

You are only harming yourself, bro.

 

[ding]

All you need to do, no matter how bad of a person you’ve been in your life, is repent on your deathbed and accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you get into heaven.

This is why I’m a Christian.

Good luck with that.

 

[TNHarley]

I dont doubt jesus existed, i think all that shit his whore mother shoved down his throat probably developed him a mental illness. Not his fault

You are only harming yourself, bro.

It only hurts if you believe, like black magic

 

[ding]

I dont doubt jesus existed, i think all that shit his whore mother shoved down his throat probably developed him a mental illness. Not his fault

You are only harming yourself, bro.

It only hurts if you believe, like black magic

Normalization of deviance is black magic?

 

[TNHarley]

I dont doubt jesus existed, i think all that shit his whore mother shoved down his throat probably developed him a mental illness. Not his fault

You are only harming yourself, bro.

It only hurts if you believe, like black magic

Normalization of deviance is black magic?

Shutup ding

 

[froggy]

All you need to do, no matter how bad of a person you’ve been in your life, is repent on your deathbed and accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you get into heaven.

This is why I’m a Christian.

7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord,Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

 

[froggy]

All you need to do, no matter how bad of a person you’ve been in your life, is repent on your deathbed and accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you get into heaven.

This is why I’m a Christian.

7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord,Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven