Analyzing A Practical Minimum Wage

[asterism]

1% is total illiterate liberal . Corporate tax is passed on to us in higher prices. We pay the corporate tax only 1% is too stupid to know it.

Lowering the cost of employees and taxes to 30% of gross isn't good?

30% of gross sucks for my friend's citrus equipment business. His EBIT is 5%. $10 Million in revenue and 5 employees. The machinery he buys and modifies for the niche market is expensive. A tax of 30% off gross minus employee cost would put him out of business. No big deal for such a high roller like you, but his product is quite instrumental in cutting costs for citrus producers which leads to lower costs to consumers of citrus products.

But go ahead and try to expand an economy by disincentivizing thousands of businesses like his.

 

[asterism]

1% is total illiterate liberal . Corporate tax is passed on to us in higher prices. We pay the corporate tax only 1% is too stupid to know it.

Lowering the cost of employees and taxes to 30% of gross isn't good?

dear whats good is the free market because it is an expression of exactly what the participants want, not what lib Nazis in govt want or think is best?

If you Work for a Living, do NOT trust ANY politician who espouses a belief in Free Trade, Free Markets, or an Invisible Hand. NONE of those exist, and that politician is NOT your friend.

Yeah, trust that guy who says he's rich and really wants to help the poor and downtrodden.

Didn't you say that you made $5 Million (or was it $10 Million) in a year? How many people did you help with that money? Be specific.

 

[OnePercenter]

If we're going to have an income tax it doesn't work to tax revenue and call it an income tax. If you think it's more efficient to have a consumption tax with then I agree.

You think taxing the middle class is a good idea?

 

[OnePercenter]

Born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

You are full of shit, regardless of your actual economic position.

Why is buying and hiring quality a bad idea?

 

[asterism]

Well, how much do you pay for clothes?

Not to presume too much, but if you're sane, you look for bargains. You try to get the best quality for the least cost. Business owners are no different. They try to get the best quality labor for the lowest wages. That doesn't make them immoral any more than you shopping for good deals makes you immoral. In fact, it's wrong to make such a thing illegal.

My clothes are mostly custom made.

I don't look for bargains, I buy and hire quality. That's why I'm number one.

Ahh.. ok. Well, you're just dodging and it seems like you know it. The fact of the matter is, sane people do DO look for bargains. They don't deliberately pay more than they need to. They look for the best balance of quality and low cost. That's what employers do. That's what customers do. That's what employees do.

He looks for bargains. He could afford to buy the building that houses his offices but he rents (because he doesn't have to take the risk and he doesn't have to pay employees minimum wage to fix the roof), he outsources his cleaning staff so he doesn't have the pay them $49K plus benefits (but he claims that's what he pays his lowest paid employees), and he pays Ford/Hertz for maintenance on his vehicles so that he doesn't have to pay the maintenance staff himself.

But he claims some moral high ground with regards to paying people. He pays well when it's convenient. Low-skilled tasks that he needs are outsourced. Sane people call that division of labor, full-of-shit bloviators like 1%er have cognitive dissonance.

 

[OnePercenter]

30% of gross sucks for my friend's citrus equipment business. His EBIT is 5%. $10 Million in revenue and 5 employees. The machinery he buys and modifies for the niche market is expensive. A tax of 30% off gross minus employee cost would put him out of business. No big deal for such a high roller like you, but his product is quite instrumental in cutting costs for citrus producers which leads to lower costs to consumers of citrus products.

But go ahead and try to expand an economy by disincentivizing thousands of businesses like his.

So his employees costs, and State and local taxes and fees are less than 3 million?

 

[asterism]

Ahh.. ok. Well, you're just dodging and it seems like you know it. The fact of the matter is, sane people do DO look for bargains. They don't deliberately pay more than they need to. They look for the best balance of quality and low cost. That's what employers do. That's what customers do. That's what employees do.

I don't fuck around, I buy and hire quality.

A number of my former competitors tried to cheap-out in hiring to boost the bottom line. They're no longer in business.

No, you outsource what you can if you're a competent business person. Certain tasks - building maintenance, power supply, internet connectivity, landscaping, janitorial, vehicle maintenance, etc. - are more efficient when effort is concentrated on efficiencies and economies of scale in those tasks. More profit for the vendors and workers, lower costs for the customers. It's why we don't all grow our own food, mine our own gold, and make our own clothes.

What you're trying to say is that for the functions that are key to your business and profitability, you don't fuck around and go cheap, you hire quality. That's exactly what every other competent businessperson does, within reason.

The company that does your coffee service relies on very cheap labor because they and their supplies have very thin margins. You have the luxury of not being in that situation and showing your ignorance while benefitting from that same cheap labor. Think about that the next time you decide to go find your own beans, roast them, bring them here, grind them, and then brew some coffee so that your assistant can serve it to your guests.

Then tell us you don't rely on low-skilled and low-paid labor.



Sorry, but you showed your ass with your grand economic plan. You might actually be as wealthy as you claim but you were either very lucky, inherited it and are burning through it, or are a complete hypocrite. You're already a partial hypocrite because you depend on low-wage workers. Otherwise you'd own the building and your janitors would be direct employees with benefits.

 

[asterism]

More than one economist takes issue with Fletcher's protectionist views. Here is one:

My Debate with Ian Fletcher David Henderson EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty

Keep in mind that Henderson is a scholar, and Fletcher was an actual economist in private practice.

Those that can DO, those that can't TEACH.

Can I use that the next time you post an economist's view of capitalism?

I'm a capitalist. Krugman is a theorist.

 

[asterism]

If we're going to have an income tax it doesn't work to tax revenue and call it an income tax. If you think it's more efficient to have a consumption tax with then I agree.

You think taxing the middle class is a good idea?

That's where the money is, so yes.

The key is having a system that maximizes the government revenue that's needed with the greatest efficiency. Everyone should pay some tax, those who can afford more should pay more. The progressive income tax was a good idea but the implementation sucks. The consumption tax with a poverty exemption is better. Less manipulative, fosters more growth.

 

[asterism]

Born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

You are full of shit, regardless of your actual economic position.

Why is buying and hiring quality a bad idea?

It's not.

 

[asterism]

30% of gross sucks for my friend's citrus equipment business. His EBIT is 5%. $10 Million in revenue and 5 employees. The machinery he buys and modifies for the niche market is expensive. A tax of 30% off gross minus employee cost would put him out of business. No big deal for such a high roller like you, but his product is quite instrumental in cutting costs for citrus producers which leads to lower costs to consumers of citrus products.

But go ahead and try to expand an economy by disincentivizing thousands of businesses like his.

So his employees costs, and State and local taxes and fees are less than 3 million?

Yes. A big hint would be the term EBIT, "Earnings Before Interest and TAXES." Please tell me you've heard of the term and you're aware that many businesses have thin margins.

 

[asterism]

Keep trying to raise the cost of human labor, protectionists. It's only going to increase this:

 

[asterism]

Here's the answer:

-Base Federal tax on corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with 400 employees or less, employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

Why do people that can easily afford to give more to the government refuse to do so but advocate policies that require EVERYONE ELSE to pay more to the government?

I mean it would be one thing if they gave half of their personal earnings above $500,000 per year to the government because they support funding the government at higher than current levels. But they don't ever do that. They take every tax break, hire experts to find loopholes, and then decry those loopholes they themselves take and elect people who raise taxes on everyone except them.

Interesting.

 

[Politico]

On this page, we will itemize a sample budget for a single person in order to analyze what a fair standard would be for a minimum-wage worker. It is our position that a person working eight hours a day, five days a week, at any job, should be able to support themselves to a minimum basic standard of living. This practical wage is necessary in order to elevate the class of working poor to contributing members of society. Working for anything less than what is needed to subsist on independently, is nothing short of slavery.

All figures are based on national averages, for a Federal standard.


RENT ------------------------------$1000
BASIC UTILITIES --------------$200
ADVANCED UTILITIES ------$150
FOOD ------------------------------$300
NON-FOOD GROCERY -----$50
CLOTHING -----------------------$75
TRANSPORTATION ----------$500
HEALTHCARE -----------------$350
MISCELLANEOUS -----------$400
------------------------------------------------------
Average Basic Monthly Expenses $3,025

A full-time job at 40 hours per week is 173.2 hours per month calculating 4.33 weeks in each month. To find a reasonable minimum wage, we divide the average basic monthly expenses figure, by the number of hours worked. For the average American worker to support themselves without government assistance or by borrowing beyond their means, that worker must earn...

$17.47 per hour

Of course, that figure must be after all taxes and contributions are taken, or that anyone earning that amount must be exempt from all such garnishments and liability. A person who cannot even afford to pay their own way, cannot afford to pay taxes. Forcing them to pay taxes that will jeopardize their basic standard of living, is unsound economics and in the long run will only force other taxpayers to subsidize those workers, in turn jeopardizing their own living standard, in a perpetual cycle that we see happening today as more workers descend into deep poverty.

If $17.47 per hour seems unreasonable to you, or just downright impossible, consider a few more facts. There was a time when a grocery clerk, or a department store salesperson could actually support themselves on what they earned. That is not so today.

Using data by the U.S. BLS, the average productivity per American worker has increased 400% since 1950. One way to look at that is that it should only take one-quarter the work hours, or 11 hours per week, to afford the same standard of living as a worker in 1950 (or our standard of living should be 4 times higher). Is that the case? Obviously not. Someone is profiting, it’s just not the average American worker. -Source

Based on consumption growth since 1968, the minimum wage today would have to be $25.05 to represent the same share of the country's total consumption. Based on national income growth, the minimum wage should be $22.08. Based on personal income growth, it should be $21.16. -Source

After adjusting for inflation, minimum wage workers today are paid about 26 percent less than they were in 1974.

At the top 1 percent of the American income distribution, average incomes rose 194 percent between 1974 and 2011. Had U.S. minimum wages risen at the same pace as U.S. maximum wages, the minimum wage would now be $26.96 an hour. -Source



Here is a detailed description of how we arrived at our sample budget figures:

Read more: Analyzing a Practical Minimum Wage Minimum Wage Workers Union of America

Minimum wage is to protect entry level workers.

It is not the ticket to a middle class life.

Nobody is supposed to raise a family on minimum wage.
Get fuckin' real.

Doesn't say anything there about living middle class or raising a family. Those numbers are for a single person, living on their own, to meet basic living expenses.

$3025? Your single person is on crack.

 

[Skull Pilot]

If we're going to have an income tax it doesn't work to tax revenue and call it an income tax. If you think it's more efficient to have a consumption tax with then I agree.

You think taxing the middle class is a good idea?

Define middle class because it seems to you idiots middle class is everyone but the top 5%.

 

[dblack]

Here's the answer:

-Base Federal tax on corporations at 30% of revenue.

-Raise minimum wage to $23.50/hr. Based on where minimum wage should be using 1970-2013 rise in food, shelter, and transportation.

-Eliminate all business subsidies (deductions/write-off’s/write-downs) except for employee expenses which are deducted dollar-for-dollar on all city, state, and Federal taxes and fees with the Feds refunding city, State, and fees.

-Companies with 400 employees or less, employee expenses above the deduction are subsidized at 100% with funds usually give back to the States.

-Adjust Social Security and private/public retirement and pension payments using 1970-2013 price structure.

-Remove the FICA limit.

-Back down ALL costs, prices, fees, to January 1, 2009 levels and hold them for 10 years which will eliminate inflation.

-Recall ALL off-shore investments tax free, and disallow any further off-shore investments.

-Make inversion illegal.

Why do people that can easily afford to give more to the government refuse to do so but advocate policies that require EVERYONE ELSE to pay more to the government?

I mean it would be one thing if they gave half of their personal earnings above $500,000 per year to the government because they support funding the government at higher than current levels. But they don't ever do that. They take every tax break, hire experts to find loopholes, and then decry those loopholes they themselves take and elect people who raise taxes on everyone except them.

Interesting.

Because their motive isn't a desire to fund government at higher levels. Do we really believe serial deficit spenders care whether government is funded or not? Their desire is to give government more power over our economic decisions. The greediest of the "one percenters" long ago realized that the surest way to amass power and wealth is by force, not free trade. And only government can do that unfettered.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You can't control quality control outsourcing.

Really? That's going to be major news to a whole bunch of people, including Ford.

WTF are you writing about? Ford maintains equipment. Nothing to do with my business.

Sociopath? That's interesting. I've noticed a trend when disagreeing with someone who can't back up his claims, he tends to accuse the opposing party of a mental illness.

You make a huge profit off of lower paid workers, you just outsource them so you can claim something different. How much do the people cleaning your offices make? How much do your landscapers make? How much do the maintenance workers make?

It's not $49K plus benefits that's for sure, but since you pay vendors for those tasks you get to think you are somehow better.

Your lacking a sense of moral responsibility and/or social conscience cements my accusations of sociopath.

I don't outsource. You can't control quality control outsourcing.

There is only one office. The Husband and Wife team company that was hired to clean the office make far more than $23.50/hr.

I don't hire landscapers, the building owner does.

Maintenance of equipment is done by mobile services, Ford/Hertz.

The lowest paid employee makes $49K/yr plus employer paid benefits.

What do you mean you dont out source? You just said you out source vehicle maintenance and maid service.
And the idea that you cant control quality when outsourcing is absurd.
Do you actually believe that when building say the space shuttles,that they did it all in house?
Hell,our economy is driven in a large part due to out sourcing.

 

[Iceweasel]

You can't control quality control outsourcing.

Really? That's going to be major news to a whole bunch of people, including Ford.

WTF are you writing about? Ford maintains equipment. Nothing to do with my business.

I was just making fun of your idiotic statement that you can't control outsourcing. Companies do it all the time. But of course you wouldn't know anything about it.

 

[Iceweasel]

And once we get past your silliness the fact remains that corp taxes are part of the cost of doing business and are paid by consumers in the form of higher prices.

So in reducing the cost of employees and taxes to 30% of gross, companies will pass the savings on to consumers?

If lower taxes allow some to charge less, others will follow suit in order to compete. Have you noticed lower prices at the gas pump? For one who claims to be in business, you seem to know little about how it works.

No way in hell does he own a business. He couldn't make ends meet running an espresso stand.

 

[SAYIT]

More than one economist takes issue with Fletcher's protectionist views. Here is one:

My Debate with Ian Fletcher David Henderson EconLog Library of Economics and Liberty

Keep in mind that Henderson is a scholar, and Fletcher was an actual economist in private practice.

Those that can DO, those that can't TEACH.

Making it all the worse for Fletcher who had his ass handed to him in that exchange. BTW, there are many (and probably most) economists who not only do not subscribe to Fletcher's protectionist views, they roundly pan his POV.