Anarchy

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

If all you have to sell is your labor then you have no choice in a capitalist system but to sell it at a discount and submit to a capitalist.

Which is no different than submitting to a socialist except you can eventually become the capitalist (unless you are stupid and suck).

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

...and although Anarchy is logically an impossible state of being, who doesn't love the Sex Pistols?

I am an anti-Christ
I am an anarchist
Don't know what I want
But I know how to get it
I want to destroy the passerby
'Cause I...
want to be...
anarchy

 

[dblack]

...and although Anarchy is logically an impossible state of being, who doesn't love the Sex Pistols?

I am an anti-Christ
I am an anarchist
Don't know what I want
But I know how to get it
I want to destroy the passerby
'Cause I...
want to be...
anarchy

Ahh... that explains your wild misconceptions about anarchy!

 

[Tehon]

If all you have to sell is your labor then you have no choice in a capitalist system but to sell it at a discount and submit to a capitalist.

Which is no different than submitting to a socialist except you can eventually become the capitalist (unless you are stupid and suck).

Socialism as a form of production is democratic. The workplace is democratized.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Ahh... that explains your wild misconceptions about anarchy!

No. I just like that song.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Socialism as a form of production is democratic. The workplace is democratized.

You can see how that does not work, right? That's like democracy in the military. Who would ever vote to take that hill covered with dug-in Germans?

 

[Tehon]

Socialism as a form of production is democratic. The workplace is democratized.

You can see how that does not work, right? That's like democracy in the military. Who would ever vote to take that hill covered with dug-in Germans?

It's called a cooperative and it is proven to work. And the military is voluntary.

Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

But, what if I don't want to share after I busted my ass and took all that risk?

It fails to take into account the sacrifices the founders made. Now, if the workers buy out the founders, fine. Great.

Why can't that model work in a capitalist society?

 

[Tehon]

But, what if I don't want to share after I busted my ass and took all that risk?

It fails to take into account the sacrifices the founders made. Now, if the workers buy out the founders, fine. Great.

Why can't that model work in a capitalist society?

Why can't that model work in a capitalist society?

It does succeed in a capitalist society. But a capitalist society makes a cooperative society impossible.

 

[dblack]

... a capitalist society makes a cooperative society impossible.

Nonsense. We can cooperate as much as we please. You can even create communes that have exactly the kind of social structure you're after. You just can't force people to join.

 

[Tehon]

... a capitalist society makes a cooperative society impossible.

Nonsense. We can cooperate as much as we please. You can even create communes that have exactly the kind of social structure you're after. You just can't force people to join.

It isn't nonsense. The communes will be under constant threat from the capitalists who effectively control the state and see their way of economic existence threatened by popular movement. The threat of force doesn't emanate from the communist camp, it emanates from the capitalist camp. All you need to do is look at the history of US relations (interventions) in Latin America and elsewhere to see this as a truth.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Defined: a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

What if the individuals and groups voluntarily choose to put governments in place at the local state and federal level?

...as we have...

 

[NYcarbineer]

People envision a society based on voluntary cooperation?

lol. Jesus Christ you can't even get the average person to voluntarily stop at an intersection without putting up a legally enforced Stop sign.

 

[gipper]

Defined: a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

What if the individuals and groups voluntarily choose to put governments in place at the local state and federal level?

...as we have...

Not a problem, but I would not refer to as government. That word connotes criminality.

 

[dblack]

Defined: a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

What if the individuals and groups voluntarily choose to put governments in place at the local state and federal level?

...as we have...

Voluntarily? That would be fine. But frankly, I don't trust your conception of 'voluntarily'.

 

[dblack]

... a capitalist society makes a cooperative society impossible.

Nonsense. We can cooperate as much as we please. You can even create communes that have exactly the kind of social structure you're after. You just can't force people to join.

It isn't nonsense. The communes will be under constant threat from the capitalists who effectively control the state and see their way of economic existence threatened by popular movement. The threat of force doesn't emanate from the communist camp, it emanates from the capitalist camp. All you need to do is look at the history of US relations (interventions) in Latin America and elsewhere to see this as a truth.

People voluntarily joining communes doesn't threaten anyone. But let's drop the pretense. When you say "cooperative society", there's nothing voluntary about it. The commies take over and force everyone to play along, right?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Defined: a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

What if the individuals and groups voluntarily choose to put governments in place at the local state and federal level?

...as we have...

Voluntarily? That would be fine. But frankly, I don't trust your conception of 'voluntarily'.

Because you believe that if a government in any form exists that was not unanimously agreed upon,

it must be coercive.

 

[WinterBorn]

... a capitalist society makes a cooperative society impossible.

Nonsense. We can cooperate as much as we please. You can even create communes that have exactly the kind of social structure you're after. You just can't force people to join.

It isn't nonsense. The communes will be under constant threat from the capitalists who effectively control the state and see their way of economic existence threatened by popular movement. The threat of force doesn't emanate from the communist camp, it emanates from the capitalist camp. All you need to do is look at the history of US relations (interventions) in Latin America and elsewhere to see this as a truth.

People voluntarily joining communes doesn't threaten anyone. But let's drop the pretense. When you say "cooperative society", there's nothing voluntary about it. The commies take over and force everyone to play along, right?

And in anarchy everyone is free to ignore the rules? Okey dokey.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Anarchism, which btw is really libertarian at an extreme,

is rejected by almost everyone at every level of society, even down to the smallest social unit, the family.

You really think the average family wants to exist where nobody does anything except 'voluntarily'? Your kids, for example,

only go to school voluntarily, only do chores voluntarily, only refrain from drugs and alcohol voluntarily, etc., etc.,

with no consequences if they choose to do otherwise...Really?

 

[Tehon]

People voluntarily joining communes doesn't threaten anyone.

Not on a small scale, that is why I stipulated that the threat was from a popular movement.

When you say "cooperative society", there's nothing voluntary about it. The commies take over and force everyone to play along, right?

We have several examples of what happens when democratic popular socialist movements have taken shape in Latin America that show the force applied by the US State at the behest of capitalists. You want to pretend capitalism equals freedom knock yourself out. All it really is, is a method of producing commodities. As is socialism. The rest is just politics.