Zone1 Annihilating the Church of J.C. of LDS

[frigidweirdo]

And how so ?

"So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!"

Imagine if Hitler had said this. Hitler didn't even go that far, he just said it about the Jews and a few other groups. God said it about almost all humans and animals.

Why? Because, a dude who CREATED CARNIVORES and OMNIVORES is pissed off because they're "violent"... I mean, how do you kill a deer without being violent, exactly?

 

[HikerGuy83]

"So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!"

Imagine if Hitler had said this. Hitler didn't even go that far, he just said it about the Jews and a few other groups. God said it about almost all humans and animals.

Why? Because, a dude who CREATED CARNIVORES and OMNIVORES is pissed off because they're "violent"... I mean, how do you kill a deer without being violent, exactly?

Actually, copies of the Book of Enoch started surfacing in the mid 1800's that explain a great deal about the flood.

Enoch was calling upon people to repent (he was Noah's great grandfather) and many were removed prior to the flood.

The book describes Enoch asking God how he can "weep" over what must happen.

And the destroying angels are pushing God to let them go down and finish the job. To which God replies, I create and I save and I (in effect) will tell you when it is time and until then, you can wait.

He wasn't pissed off. The book describes how all of heaven wept and the earth shuddered.

It also tells why it had to happen. There was literally no hope. Even the earth was complaining.

There is much missing in the bible, but there are references to the book in the N.T.

God loves his children. This didn't happen without a huge effort to save and if it happened it was only because it needed to.

 

[HikerGuy83]

"So God said to Noah, “I have decided to destroy all living creatures, for they have filled the earth with violence. Yes, I will wipe them all out along with the earth!"

Imagine if Hitler had said this. Hitler didn't even go that far, he just said it about the Jews and a few other groups. God said it about almost all humans and animals.

Why? Because, a dude who CREATED CARNIVORES and OMNIVORES is pissed off because they're "violent"... I mean, how do you kill a deer without being violent, exactly?

Separation from God is what was achieved by the Adam eating the fobidden fruit. It was necessary to show faith.

But it put man in a world that was equally controlled by God's adversary (a former high angel). We are free to chose and we are freely tempted. We grow or degrade through our choices.

Violence is one of the unfortunate consequences of the separation of man from God.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Actually, copies of the Book of Enoch started surfacing in the mid 1800's that explain a great deal about the flood.

Enoch was calling upon people to repent (he was Noah's great grandfather) and many were removed prior to the flood.

The book describes Enoch asking God how he can "weep" over what must happen.

And the destroying angels are pushing God to let them go down and finish the job. To which God replies, I create and I save and I (in effect) will tell you when it is time and until then, you can wait.

He wasn't pissed off. The book describes how all of heaven wept and the earth shuddered.

It also tells why it had to happen. There was literally no hope. Even the earth was complaining.

There is much missing in the bible, but there are references to the book in the N.T.

God loves his children. This didn't happen without a huge effort to save and if it happened it was only because it needed to.

So.... you have this Bible, and some people have copies with one story, and others don't.

And then we're expected to believe all this nonsense.

Problem is people accept what they're got, and what they've got is "The word of God".

So, you're suggesting that when God said “I have decided to destroy all living creatures," that he didn't mean it? He was misquoted or something.

It's incredible the lengths people will go to to justify genocide.

 

[HikerGuy83]

Imagine if Hitler had said this.

Hitler wanted power and control.

Man left the presence of God for a purpose.

The law of justice has been in place for as long as God has been around (and longer). And it cannot be robbed.

God wants what is best for us, but he can't force us to his will.

If we go against it, we face justice which is very exacting.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Hitler wanted power and control.

Man left the presence of God for a purpose.

The law of justice has been in place for as long as God has been around (and longer). And it cannot be robbed.

God wants what is best for us, but he can't force us to his will.

If we go against it, we face justice which is very exacting.

Yes, Hitler wanted power and control.

God made humans, apparently. He made them what they are, then got angry that they did what he made them do. Which is super weird

Then he made a flood to wipe them out because they're evil and violent.

Then when Hitler came along, Stalin, Pol Pot among a whole host if dictators of the 20th century who couldn't even reduce the massive population growth of the world, and he did what? Sweet fork all is what he did.

That's your "law of justice" right there. What people were up to in Noah's age, without guns, without bombs, without the ability to kill that many people, was nothing compared to the 20th century and beyond. And God seems to have given up and got "fuck it mate, let them be eejits"

God wants what is best for us huh?

Which is what? Death due to drowning?

 

[HikerGuy83]

So.... you have this Bible, and some people have copies with one story, and others don't.

And then we're expected to believe all this nonsense.

Problem is people accept what they're got, and what they've got is "The word of God".

So, you're suggesting that when God said “I have decided to destroy all living creatures," that he didn't mean it? He was misquoted or something.

It's incredible the lengths people will go to to justify genocide.

I am not justifying anything. I am telling you what I have read.

The book I am referencing is not in the bible, it is only referenced in the bible. It was lost for a long long time.

Nobody is expecting anything. You get to chose. Faith works on agency. But calling it nonsense seem a little crazy when you now have Hubble showing you just how vast the universe is. Who am I and who are you to make absolute judgements on anything.

The word of God is continual. The Old Testament and New Testament are examples of that. The bible didn't take shape until after 400 years. And SOMEONE decide what was in and what was out.

And I am not suggesting anything. What I am saying is that the text of the book of Enoch (fragments of which had been found in places like Quumran and the Nag Hamadi (sp?) says that God wasn't happy about it and worked for generations to get things turned around. But he respects agency.

And when there was no other choice.....keepin in mind a generation was lot longer than it is today.....it happened. l

He said it would, but people had hundreds of years (and in fact, the text says that the people thought they could defeat his efforts....i.e. bring it on).

 

[HikerGuy83]

then got angry that they did what he made them do.

What are you talking about ?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Separation from God is what was achieved by the Adam eating the fobidden fruit. It was necessary to show faith.

But it put man in a world that was equally controlled by God's adversary (a former high angel). We are free to chose and we are freely tempted. We grow or degrade through our choices.

Violence is one of the unfortunate consequences of the separation of man from God.

So why would Adam have eaten the forbidden fruit? He was a creation of God.

But God now wants people to "show faith" and if they don't, he wipes them out.

Only I don't "show faith", I think it's all a lie. And then on the planet most people are not Christians, and they haven't all been wiped out.

We are free to choose. But if we don't choose right, then we get God committing genocide against us. That sounds really bizarre, like anyone who created such a thing is clearly evil.

So, before this "separation of man from God", humans weren't omnivores or what?

 

[HikerGuy83]

Yes, Hitler wanted power and control.

God made humans, apparently. He made them what they are, then got angry that they did what he made them do. Which is super weird

Then he made a flood to wipe them out because they're evil and violent.

Then when Hitler came along, Stalin, Pol Pot among a whole host if dictators of the 20th century who couldn't even reduce the massive population growth of the world, and he did what? Sweet fork all is what he did.

That's your "law of justice" right there. What people were up to in Noah's age, without guns, without bombs, without the ability to kill that many people, was nothing compared to the 20th century and beyond. And God seems to have given up and got "fuck it mate, let them be eejits"

God wants what is best for us huh?

Which is what? Death due to drowning?

You seem to think you get to set the conditions for how this plays out.

As to your ramblings, I confess, a lot of it is lost on me.

This wasn't about people killing each other (although the Book of Enoch does say it was murderous time to live).

It was about keeping covenants or facing the law of justice. Not hard to understand.

And did your parents never do something to punish you that you found unfair but later realized was in your best interest. Likely you recieved many warnings.

Taken across the entire cyle of who we are, it is clearer in Mormon theology than it is in most others.

 

[HikerGuy83]

So why would Adam have eaten the forbidden fruit? He was a creation of God.

Adam was left to temptation. The serpent was allowed into the garden for a reason.

The consequence of his action was separation from God and removal from the Garden (cast out into a world where he would learn to live by faith, and live by the sweat of his brown, and eventually die).

But he also came to know right and wrong, good and evil which he did not know prior to partaking of the fruit.

I don't get your last statement. So what if he was a creation. Isaiah tells us Lucifer was a high angel and gave way to pride.

But God now wants people to "show faith" and if they don't, he wipes them out.

Our existence is purposeful. And the laws of jutice and mercy are eternal. Justice is very demanding.

Showing faith is one thing.

Rebelling aginst God (and doing things like lying stealing and killing) generally don't sit well with justice. God worked with obstinate Isreael for centuries before they were finally disbursed for a long time. Does he like it ? Does he enjoy it. Enoch says no. But one of the things that makes him God is that he is perfect in his judgements. And he can't rob justice.

Only I don't "show faith", I think it's all a lie. And then on the planet most people are not Christians, and they haven't all been wiped out.

Not surprizing. You may have turned your back on Him, but he hasn't given up on you.

We are free to choose. But if we don't choose right, then we get God committing genocide against us. That sounds really bizarre, like anyone who created such a thing is clearly evil.

I am not sure how many times I have to explain this. It is clear in the Atonement of Christ that justice required that perfect sacrifice (something I certainly don't fully understand). God has only done one extinction event that I know of. And they had hundreds of years (and they knew just what was going on. They were not ignorant of Him, the laws of justice, or the potential that awaited them. They thought they could beat him). I don't know how that counts as evil.

The earth is not a sandbox. It is a purposeful classroom. How it all fits together is something he knows and understands.

So, before this "separation of man from God", humans weren't omnivores or what?

I don't know, but I doubt it. From Genesis it says.

16 And the Lord God acommanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest bfreely eat:

17 But of the atree of the bknowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the cday that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely ddie.

 

[GLASNOST]

https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf

I have a perverse hobby, and I've indulged in it for many years. I enjoy reading about Joseph Smith, LDS history, and the LDS church (whatever it chooses to be called this week). Basically, I find it entertaining that so many apparently intelligent people can be so totally bamboozled by a religion that is manifestly phony...from the very beginning. The problem for them is that MOST religions were started a long time ago, before reliable recording was possible, and when eye witnesses could not be challenged in Real Time. They might all be total bunkum, but since they have been around so long, maybe not. Who knows?

But that's not the case with LDS. It happened recently enough that there ARE records, witnesses, and claims that can be challenged with facts and science, and the Mormon church comes up short in virtually every area.

But what I didn't know - I learned it watching a video earlier today - is that there is actually an ex-Mormon who went all out, questioning church authorities on every imaginable claim, belief, and assertion of the church, and providing detailed explanation of why they are bunkum.

His original list of questions to the LDS authorities, after being ignored, was expanded into a book-length essay, obliterating virtually everything that the church teaches and stands for. This thesis (or whatever you would call it) has been termed, "The CES Letter," and is linked above.

LDS members are cautioned NOT TO READ IT. It will kill their "testimony" like Raid kills bugs. If you spend a little while going over it, you will understand why they don't want members reading it.

I have had a few conversations with LDS missionaries, but the next ones...I don't know.

I think you need to watch "The Prophet" episode of "Evil Lives Here". The intro:

 

[braalian]

Basically, I find it entertaining that so many apparently intelligent people can be so totally bamboozled by a religion that is manifestly phony...from the very beginning.

You could say that about most religions. Maybe all.

You have a point about LDS being particularly dumb because they’re childish beliefs originated relatively not long ago

Same with Scientology

 

[HikerGuy83]

Basically, I find it entertaining that so many apparently intelligent people can be so totally bamboozled by a religion that is manifestly phony...from the very beginning.

O.K. Let's hear it. How is it so manifestly phony ?

 

[HikerGuy83]

But that's not the case with LDS. It happened recently enough that there ARE records, witnesses, and claims that can be challenged with facts and science, and the Mormon church comes up short in virtually every area.

I am all ears. Comes up short ? Let's hear it.

 

[HikerGuy83]

But what I didn't know - I learned it watching a video earlier today - is that there is actually an ex-Mormon who went all out, questioning church authorities on every imaginable claim, belief, and assertion of the church, and providing detailed explanation of why they are bunkum.

His original list of questions to the LDS authorities, after being ignored, was expanded into a book-length essay, obliterating virtually everything that the church teaches and stands for. This thesis (or whatever you would call it) has been termed, "The CES Letter," and is linked above.

Just about everything in the CES Letters requires someone to create a standard (which Runnels is so quick to do). There are scads of contradictions in the church or from church leaders. They never claimed there would not be.

Nor did they say "we are the light or the truth". BTW: That letter has been out for a long time. First came out in form in 2013....and you just learned about it ? That's not much of a hobby.

But you have FAIR (which I don't like) and their rebuttles and you have:

Bamboozled by the CES Letter

archive.bookofmormoncentral.org

Which takes on Runnels and the integrated argument they utilize.

Me, I could care less. As I said, my experience was, as promised, spiritual in nature.

 

[HikerGuy83]

LDS members are cautioned NOT TO READ IT. It will kill their "testimony" like Raid kills bugs. If you spend a little while going over it, you will understand why they don't want members reading it.

I listened to Runnels, I've read most of the book.

I've never been told not to read it.

Where did you get that little bit of infomration ?

 

[frigidweirdo]

You seem to think you get to set the conditions for how this plays out.

As to your ramblings, I confess, a lot of it is lost on me.

This wasn't about people killing each other (although the Book of Enoch does say it was murderous time to live).

It was about keeping covenants or facing the law of justice. Not hard to understand.

And did your parents never do something to punish you that you found unfair but later realized was in your best interest. Likely you recieved many warnings.

Taken across the entire cyle of who we are, it is clearer in Mormon theology than it is in most others.

Well, I'm using logic.

"As for your ramblings"... conversation over. Bye bye

 

[HikerGuy83]

Well, I'm using logic.

"As for your ramblings"... conversation over. Bye bye

Sorry to offend you, but I could not follow the point (if there was one) you were trying to make.

 

[braalian]

O.K. Let's hear it. How is it so manifestly phony ?

The church of LDS?

Really?