Ante up anti gunners...what will you allow for normal gun owners, what do you want?

[Al Azar]

Criminals don't obey laws? You think that life in prison for illegal possession of a machine gun isn't effective? How many crimes are being committed by criminals wielding machine guns do we suffer every day?

Or ever?

Save your bumper sticker responses.

How about we jail those actually committing crimes with firearms for around 25 years if used in a robbery, fifty years if you discharge the weapon during said robbery and get your affairs in order if you kill someone in a robbery?
That way we actually punish the ones committing the crimes and not the law abiding.

Certainly nothing wrong with that approach. But we're not doing that either.

We're not doing anything to address this problem because of the influence of those who won't abide any new efforts to control the acquisition and use of firearms.

Nothing else would be needed if we locked up criminals who use firearms for long sentences.
The statistics show it's a small percentage of the population that commit crimes over and over again.
Stop letting em out of prison and we'd see a dramatic drop in firearm related crime.

That only leaves about 18,000 suicides, 1,000 accidental gun deaths, etc. Still more than all of Europe combined. (You know, since we're back to "black lives don't matter" or "only thugs kill with guns").

But sure, it's just the bad guys. You gotta be delusional. We're a gun-crazy country that the rest of the world shakes its head at.

Here...non Asian suicide rates by country.......countries with extreme gun control laws v. the United States...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

Deflecting the thread onto an altogether different topic suggests you've run out of excuses.

 

[Auld Phart]

Our gun culture isn't a problem...we have 357,000,000 guns in private hands.......and in 2015 we had 586 accidental gun deaths.

We had 8,124 gun murders. Out of 357,000,000 privately held guns........do you realize how small a number that is in a country with 320,000,000 people? And 90% of those doing the shooting cannot legally buy, own or carry the guns....

Normal gun owners are not the problem....

Think about that.

Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent criminal attack and to save lives...many times stopping mass shooters...........

The actual problem that we have is inner city criminals who have been raised for generations by single teenage mothers...creating young males with impulse control problems.......that is the problem....not gun owners or American gun culture.

Normal gun owners are not the problem and are unaffected by background checks and registration.

I've already pointed out the silliness of that argument

On the contrary, you've ignored it.

I suggest you take another look at post #56

Your example of how you would feel inconvenienced is not persuasive.

Why not?

It would affect every gun owner at some point in their lives, and their families after their deaths.

 

[Al Azar]

The problem with guns here, is the culture behind it. I was listening to an interview with a Norwegian on their gun culture.

Like Americans, many Norwegians own guns. But according to Seierstad, the culture of gun ownership is very different in the two countries. In Norway, for example, it's uncommon to see guns outside organized settings like gun clubs or during hunting season.


“Yes, there’s a high percentage of gun ownership in Norway," she says, "but those guns are used mainly one week in the year during the hunting of elk season ... the rest of the year it’s locked down and stored.”


Even US and Norwegian law enforcement have different approaches to firearms.


“The police has not been armed in Norway,” Seierstad says. “People in the US could say, ‘Well, isn’t that scary?’ Well when the police is not armed, the drug dealer is not armed, the criminals are not armed, because no one is armed.”

After Orlando, Americans and US lawmakers are arguing over whether to strengthen (or even weaken) gun regulations. But after the attacks in Oslo and Utoya, Norwegian law didn't change.


The Norwegian government did set up a committee that proposed tighter gun laws — including mandatory medical background checks, regular checks on weapon owners and better lists accounting for guns with lead ammunition — but none of these proposals went into effect.


Why? The reason was pretty simple.

“We had quite restrictive laws,” Seierstad explains. "We have very very few gun accidents and gun murders.”​

You don't see testosterone impaired idiots walking around like this:

In my mind common sense gun control would look at changing the culture as much as changing any laws. I'd have no problem with some sort of education course in safe use, legal issues etc before you can purchase gun. I'd also have no problem with having certain types of weapons banned, and the purchase of large amounts of weapons and ammunition causing a red flag to be raised. Universal background checks.

Since online a gun and voting are both basic civil rights.....would you agree to a tax on voting and a test before you can vote?

So if background checks and registration were free, you'd have no objection to them?

Voting is mentioned in our constitution six times. Arms are mentioned but once. Yet we must prove that we are eligible to vote. Why the discrepancy?

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

So you borrow a buddies gun to go to the range because you're thinking about buying one and you go to jail.

Nah..i dont think so.

See how far you'd get borrowing your buddy's passport and using it.

 

[2aguy]

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

Why.......say I am a law abiding citizen with no criminal record...why should I get penalized for owning a gun?

I am more than happy to lock up anyone using a gun in a crime....30 years.....

I am more than happy to lock up felons caught in mere possession of a gun...30 years....

But a law abiding person, with no criminal record, who is not using a gun to commit a crime...why do you want to punish them ?

Who brought up penalizing law-abiding citizens?

If I have a gun that is not registered...having broken no law and committed no crime.......you want me punished. For something that is a Right under our Bill of Rights.....

You broke the law by not registering it. It's no different than breaking the law by driving without a license.

and the only reason it was a law is because you created it......otherwise there is no reason to register the gun as a law abiding gun owner....you specifically created a law, that does not apply to criminals and only puts the law abiding person at legal risk because they did not jump through your bureaucratic hoop....

And who will pay to register guns? Any payment is unconstitional under the 14th Amendment.....equal protection....poor people can't afford it...therfore it is not Constitutional. Just like Poll Taxes on the Right to vote.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Since online a gun and voting are both basic civil rights.....would you agree to a tax on voting and a test before you can vote?

So if background checks and registration were free, you'd have no objection to them?

Voting is mentioned in our constitution six times. Arms are mentioned but once. Yet we must prove that we are eligible to vote. Why the discrepancy?

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

So you borrow a buddies gun to go to the range because you're thinking about buying one and you go to jail.

Nah..i dont think so.

See how far you'd get borrowing your buddy's passport and using it.

Why would someone borrow a passport that would be useless?

 

[2aguy]

They block efforts that would affect law abiding citizens as well as criminals.

Find me a link that shows them approving of straw purchases, felons or criminals owning firearms, back street sales, etc

They oppose background checks for ALL gun purchases. Most NRA members support it. If that's not proof to you, what is?

Most NRA members are uninformed as to why you guys want universal background checks.....you only want it to get gun registration....

 

[Al Azar]

Normal gun owners are not the problem and are unaffected by background checks and registration.

I've already pointed out the silliness of that argument

On the contrary, you've ignored it.

I suggest you take another look at post #56

Your example of how you would feel inconvenienced is not persuasive.

Why not?

It would affect every gun owner at some point in their lives, and their families after their deaths.

And I'm sure I'm not alone in being affected by the stop sign at the end of my street. Not just once or twice in my life, but every day.

The horror...

 

[2aguy]

I'll indulge your wisecrack this one time. The lobbying efforts of the NRA is responsible for arms proliferation in this country and their ready availability.

If you don't like wisecracks, you might as well put me on ignore now, I use a lot of them.

Where did you get the impression that the NRA is behind the proliferation of firearms in this country?

What do they promote, in your opinion, that causes this?

You're serious? The NRA blocks every effort to keep firearms out of the hands of high-risk individuals. The more guns they can put in anyone's hands, the more everyone else feels they need protection from everyone else.

What a racket.

No,the racket is liberals and their soft on crime approach because it happens to be minorities doing most of the killing.
The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens.

We have more people in jail than any country on earth, including India or China.

INDIA. OR. CHINA.

But please, preach more about how we need to jail more people in order to have the appropriate "hardness" against criminality.

No need to jail more people. Increase the jail time for those who aren't getting the message.

Ref earlier mention of machine guns, the penalties for misuse, and the dearth of crimes with machine guns.

It's simple risk/reward calculus.

No.....gang members can't buy guns in the first place...any guns...they still get them...they use pistols because they are easy to conceal and carry and hide in their homes.......

 

[Auld Phart]

I've already pointed out the silliness of that argument

On the contrary, you've ignored it.

I suggest you take another look at post #56

Your example of how you would feel inconvenienced is not persuasive.

Why not?

It would affect every gun owner at some point in their lives, and their families after their deaths.

And I'm sure I'm not alone in being affected by the stop sign at the end of my street. Not just once or twice in my life, but every day.

The horror...

Great deflection.

What does that have to do with the right to keep and bear arms?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I've already pointed out the silliness of that argument

On the contrary, you've ignored it.

I suggest you take another look at post #56

Your example of how you would feel inconvenienced is not persuasive.

Why not?

It would affect every gun owner at some point in their lives, and their families after their deaths.

And I'm sure I'm not alone in being affected by the stop sign at the end of my street. Not just once or twice in my life, but every day.

The horror...

How many times does it have to be said?
Driving is not a Constitutional right.

 

[2aguy]

Yet you mock responsible gun control.

Define it then.

??? I just did. Our regulation of machine guns is very effective. Expand it to include all firearms. No law-abiding citizen would be adversely affected.

Except that only criminals would be armed to the teeth. What kind of fantasy world do you live in where criminals obey laws? See, that's the fundamental flaw in your thinking. Criminals, by definition, do not obey laws. No gun law ever has, nor ever will, stop a criminal from committing a crime. If a criminal wants my wallet, on the other hand, he will have to kill me to get it. See the difference? You want to prosecute him for taking my wallet, I want to stop him from taking it.

Criminals don't obey laws? You think that life in prison for illegal possession of a machine gun isn't effective? How many crimes are being committed by criminals wielding machine guns do we suffer every day?

Or ever?

Save your bumper sticker responses.

How about we jail those actually committing crimes with firearms for around 25 years if used in a robbery, fifty years if you discharge the weapon during said robbery and get your affairs in order if you kill someone in a robbery?
That way we actually punish the ones committing the crimes and not the law abiding.

That is how you actually stop gun crime....but that isn't the goal of most of the posters here...they want to keep law abiding people from getting guns.

 

[Al Azar]

So if background checks and registration were free, you'd have no objection to them?

Voting is mentioned in our constitution six times. Arms are mentioned but once. Yet we must prove that we are eligible to vote. Why the discrepancy?

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

So you borrow a buddies gun to go to the range because you're thinking about buying one and you go to jail.

Nah..i dont think so.

See how far you'd get borrowing your buddy's passport and using it.

Why would someone borrow a passport that would be useless?

Why would your buddy furnish you with a weapon you could use only illegally?

Hey, this is fun. Let's speculate about all sorts of irrelevancies instead of discussing the issue.

 

[2aguy]

Hey, if you get in trouble, you can always call a cop

Ah, yes, the good old days when calling a cop was sufficient. Back when a juvenile delinquent who wanted to be a tough guy had to fabricate his compensator out of a car antenna shaft, rubber band and a nail. Today he just goes to the corner of the playground and buys a Glock.

Thanks, NRA.

NRA is selling guns at playgrounds?

I'll indulge your wisecrack this one time. The lobbying efforts of the NRA is responsible for arms proliferation in this country and their ready availability.

If you don't like wisecracks, you might as well put me on ignore now, I use a lot of them.

Where did you get the impression that the NRA is behind the proliferation of firearms in this country?

What do they promote, in your opinion, that causes this?

You're serious? The NRA blocks every effort to keep firearms out of the hands of high-risk individuals. The more guns they can put in anyone's hands, the more everyone else feels they need protection from everyone else.

What a racket.

WRong.....which anti gun group are your reciting from.....do some research please.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

So you borrow a buddies gun to go to the range because you're thinking about buying one and you go to jail.

Nah..i dont think so.

See how far you'd get borrowing your buddy's passport and using it.

Why would someone borrow a passport that would be useless?

Why would your buddy furnish you with a weapon you could use only illegally?

Hey, this is fun. Let's speculate about all sorts of irrelevancies instead of discussing the issue.

I've borrowed firearms from friends many times.

 

[2aguy]

How about we jail those actually committing crimes with firearms for around 25 years if used in a robbery, fifty years if you discharge the weapon during said robbery and get your affairs in order if you kill someone in a robbery?
That way we actually punish the ones committing the crimes and not the law abiding.

Certainly nothing wrong with that approach. But we're not doing that either.

We're not doing anything to address this problem because of the influence of those who won't abide any new efforts to control the acquisition and use of firearms.

Nothing else would be needed if we locked up criminals who use firearms for long sentences.
The statistics show it's a small percentage of the population that commit crimes over and over again.
Stop letting em out of prison and we'd see a dramatic drop in firearm related crime.

That only leaves about 18,000 suicides, 1,000 accidental gun deaths, etc. Still more than all of Europe combined. (You know, since we're back to "black lives don't matter" or "only thugs kill with guns").

But sure, it's just the bad guys. You gotta be delusional. We're a gun-crazy country that the rest of the world shakes its head at.

Here...non Asian suicide rates by country.......countries with extreme gun control laws v. the United States...

World suicide rates by country

World suicide rates by country

Per 100,000


Hungary ... 21.0
Belgium .... 18.4
Finland... 16.5
France... 14.6
Poland... 13.8
Austria... 13.8
Czech Republic... 12.7
New Zealand.... 11.9
Denmark... 11.3
Sweden..............11.1
Norway...............10.9
Iceland................10.4
Germany.............10.3
Canada...............10.2

United States.......10.1

Deflecting the thread onto an altogether different topic suggests you've run out of excuses.

I was responding to a dumb point about suicide and guns.......notice...almost all of those countries have extreme gun control..and higher suicide rates than we do....

 

[2aguy]

Our gun culture isn't a problem...we have 357,000,000 guns in private hands.......and in 2015 we had 586 accidental gun deaths.

We had 8,124 gun murders. Out of 357,000,000 privately held guns........do you realize how small a number that is in a country with 320,000,000 people? And 90% of those doing the shooting cannot legally buy, own or carry the guns....

Normal gun owners are not the problem....

Think about that.

Americans use guns 1,500,000 times a year to stop violent criminal attack and to save lives...many times stopping mass shooters...........

The actual problem that we have is inner city criminals who have been raised for generations by single teenage mothers...creating young males with impulse control problems.......that is the problem....not gun owners or American gun culture.

Normal gun owners are not the problem and are unaffected by background checks and registration.

I've already pointed out the silliness of that argument

On the contrary, you've ignored it.

I suggest you take another look at post #56

Your example of how you would feel inconvenienced is not persuasive.

Not inconvenienced.........Poll Taxes and Literacy tests are infringements on the right to vote.......but really...aren't they just inconveniences.......why not put a Poll Tax to vote...right? Why not require a test to vote..right? Merely inconveneinces.......

 

[2aguy]

Since online a gun and voting are both basic civil rights.....would you agree to a tax on voting and a test before you can vote?

So if background checks and registration were free, you'd have no objection to them?

Voting is mentioned in our constitution six times. Arms are mentioned but once. Yet we must prove that we are eligible to vote. Why the discrepancy?

I am fine with background checks at gun stores......they should be free however.....background checks for private sales are another issue...they require gun registration .......and gun registration is always used to ban and confiscate guns...they did that in Germany, Britain and Australia........so gun registration..which does not even apply to actual criminals is a non starter....

What exactly do you think gun registration achieves anyway......mass shooters would register their guns, happily....since they plan their shootings 6 months to 2 years in advance....and criminals don't have to register their illegal guns...

So what do they do?

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

Why.......say I am a law abiding citizen with no criminal record...why should I get penalized for owning a gun?

I am more than happy to lock up anyone using a gun in a crime....30 years.....

I am more than happy to lock up felons caught in mere possession of a gun...30 years....

But a law abiding person, with no criminal record, who is not using a gun to commit a crime...why do you want to punish them ?

Who brought up penalizing law-abiding citizens?

When you put a penalty on not registering a gun......which criminals do not have to do from the decision in Haynes v. United States.......

 

[Al Azar]

Again, any one of these steps alone is inadequate. Did you miss the third step, severe penalties for possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer?

Why.......say I am a law abiding citizen with no criminal record...why should I get penalized for owning a gun?

I am more than happy to lock up anyone using a gun in a crime....30 years.....

I am more than happy to lock up felons caught in mere possession of a gun...30 years....

But a law abiding person, with no criminal record, who is not using a gun to commit a crime...why do you want to punish them ?

Who brought up penalizing law-abiding citizens?

If I have a gun that is not registered...having broken no law and committed no crime.......you want me punished. For something that is a Right under our Bill of Rights.....

You broke the law by not registering it. It's no different than breaking the law by driving without a license.

and the only reason it was a law is because you created it......otherwise there is no reason to register the gun as a law abiding gun owner....you specifically created a law, that does not apply to criminals and only puts the law abiding person at legal risk because they did not jump through your bureaucratic hoop....

And who will pay to register guns? Any payment is unconstitional under the 14th Amendment.....equal protection....poor people can't afford it...therfore it is not Constitutional. Just like Poll Taxes on the Right to vote.

I didn't create the law requiring licensing of drivers. We as a body created the law as a matter of public safety.

And there's no reason not to extend that into other areas of public safety.

 

[Al Azar]

If you don't like wisecracks, you might as well put me on ignore now, I use a lot of them.

Where did you get the impression that the NRA is behind the proliferation of firearms in this country?

What do they promote, in your opinion, that causes this?

You're serious? The NRA blocks every effort to keep firearms out of the hands of high-risk individuals. The more guns they can put in anyone's hands, the more everyone else feels they need protection from everyone else.

What a racket.

No,the racket is liberals and their soft on crime approach because it happens to be minorities doing most of the killing.
The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens.

We have more people in jail than any country on earth, including India or China.

INDIA. OR. CHINA.

But please, preach more about how we need to jail more people in order to have the appropriate "hardness" against criminality.

No need to jail more people. Increase the jail time for those who aren't getting the message.

Ref earlier mention of machine guns, the penalties for misuse, and the dearth of crimes with machine guns.

It's simple risk/reward calculus.

No.....gang members can't buy guns in the first place...any guns...they still get them...they use pistols because they are easy to conceal and carry and hide in their homes.......

And we now have so many in circulation, they're easy to steal.

See the problem?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You're serious? The NRA blocks every effort to keep firearms out of the hands of high-risk individuals. The more guns they can put in anyone's hands, the more everyone else feels they need protection from everyone else.

What a racket.

No,the racket is liberals and their soft on crime approach because it happens to be minorities doing most of the killing.
The vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens.

We have more people in jail than any country on earth, including India or China.

INDIA. OR. CHINA.

But please, preach more about how we need to jail more people in order to have the appropriate "hardness" against criminality.

No need to jail more people. Increase the jail time for those who aren't getting the message.

Ref earlier mention of machine guns, the penalties for misuse, and the dearth of crimes with machine guns.

It's simple risk/reward calculus.

No.....gang members can't buy guns in the first place...any guns...they still get them...they use pistols because they are easy to conceal and carry and hide in their homes.......

And we now have so many in circulation, they're easy to steal.

See the problem?

Stop being so soft on crime.