Anti-Islam ads on NYC buses. Whose side are you on?

[Osomir]

And yet liberal Islam was a fairly popular movement as a sub-set of Islamic Modernism over the course of the last hundred and fifty years. The problems with assertions such as yours is that they ignore very real and important subsets of the faith and their beliefs. By saying that Islam can't be "liberal" you are saying that those Muslims who are liberal aren't really Muslims. such rhetoric and framing can only play into the hands of Islamic radicals and I for one am not keen on supporting their definitions of Islam. I'm not sure why you would be.

A "liberal" interpretation of a profoundly illiberal manifesto does not make the manifesto liberal. It simply means that there are some who are not quite as illiberal.

One could just as easily point out the various members of the KKK who have a more "liberal" interpretation of their racist tenets.

You attempt quite the rhetorical sleight of hand when you refer to "Islamic radicals", because it is mainstream Islam that is in question here. Mainstream Islam is profoundly antithetical to liberalism. Radical interpretations thereof are simply horrific.

The generalized sets of cultural assumptions between western civilization and Islam are not the same. What is mainstream for the west would be considered EXTREMELY liberal in Islam and what is mainstream in Islam would be considered extremely conservative in the west.

A lot of Islamic liberalism started off as critiques of highly illiberal western colonial powers and administrations. Appeals for the expansion and modernization of education, as well as education for women, the appeal for constitutionalism and equity under the law and even the call for democracy. Trying to suggest that such progressive discourse for the time is illiberal simply so that you can carry on with your black and white understanding of Islam is dishonest.

You want to create this definitive barrier between Islamic Liberalism and European style liberalism, when many Islamic liberalists and modernists sought to copy European domestic liberal styles directly.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

A lot of Islamic liberalism started off as critiques of highly illiberal western colonial powers and administrations. Appeals for the expansion and modernization of education, as well as education for women, the appeal for constitutionalism and equity under the law and even the call for democracy. Trying to suggest that such progressive discourse for the time is illiberal simply so that you can carry on with your black and white understanding of Islam is dishonest.

You want to create this definitive barrier between Islamic Liberalism and European style liberalism, when many Islamic liberalists and modernists sought to copy European domestic liberal styles directly.

Ah -- those much maligned "colonial powers".

Don't you people ever tire of trotting out these hackneyed buzz terms you use to elicit the appropriate Pavlovian reactions in the mindless portion of the left?

What's next? Don't tell me......don't tell me........something about "apartheid"?

 

[Osomir]

A lot of Islamic liberalism started off as critiques of highly illiberal western colonial powers and administrations. Appeals for the expansion and modernization of education, as well as education for women, the appeal for constitutionalism and equity under the law and even the call for democracy. Trying to suggest that such progressive discourse for the time is illiberal simply so that you can carry on with your black and white understanding of Islam is dishonest.

You want to create this definitive barrier between Islamic Liberalism and European style liberalism, when many Islamic liberalists and modernists sought to copy European domestic liberal styles directly.

Ah -- those much maligned "colonial powers".

Don't you people ever tire of trotting out these hackneyed buzz terms you use to elicit the appropriate Pavlovian reactions in the mindless portion of the left?

What's next? Don't tell me......don't tell me........something about "apartheid"?

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

 

[Roudy]

The leftist media has gone beserk trying to demonize Pam Geller for simply telling the truth. They take Islamic savagery as normal, expected behavior. Just don't get Muslims upset by telling the truth, they're bound to kill you for it.

 

[Roudy]

Well just ask yourself this one question. If that sign was about black people instead of Jews would it be free speech or hate speech?

The ad is against Muslims.

The ad is against Muslim intolerance and violence.

 

[Osomir]

Well just ask yourself this one question. If that sign was about black people instead of Jews would it be free speech or hate speech?

The ad is against Muslims.

The ad is against Muslim intolerance and violence.

The advertisement focuses on one individual from Hamas. Hardly representative of Muslims.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

Colonialism? You mean, as in the Ottoman Empire?

Or perhaps you are talking the current situation involving Islam colonizing Europe?

In either case, the answer is "yes, of course". Islam's central tenets involve aggressive expansion, domination and subjugation of all in its path. What else do you expect from a totalitarian political ideology crafted by a war lord seeking a useful tool to bind his warriors to him?

 

[Roudy]

Well just ask yourself this one question. If that sign was about black people instead of Jews would it be free speech or hate speech?

The ad is against Muslims.

Not so. The ads confront vicious Islamist militancy and the culture that spawned and cultivates it.

It promotes discord and incites violence. That's it.

So you think the West and non Muslim infidels in general should just never bring up Islamic savagery and intolerance. Let's suppress the truth and free speech in favor of a bunch of savages and bullies.

 

[irosie91]

I'm still waiting for a Muslim mass rally denouncing 9/11. I side with Pamela Geller.

It's always interesting to see who sides with hate.

it's always interesting to see how the HATERS WITH THE MOSTEST HATE------redefine "hate"

 

[Roudy]

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

Colonialism? You mean, as in the Ottoman Empire?

Or perhaps you are talking the current situation involving Islam colonizing Europe?

In either case, the answer is "yes, of course". Islam's central tenets involve aggressive expansion, domination and subjugation of all in its path. What else do you expect from a totalitarian political ideology crafted by a war lord seeking a useful tool to bind his warriors to him?

Islam in itself is nothing but Arab imperialism and colonialism.

 

[Osomir]

Well just ask yourself this one question. If that sign was about black people instead of Jews would it be free speech or hate speech?

The ad is against Muslims.

Not so. The ads confront vicious Islamist militancy and the culture that spawned and cultivates it.

It promotes discord and incites violence. That's it.

So you think the West and non Muslim infidels in general should just never bring up Islamic savagery and intolerance. Let's suppress the truth and free speech in favor of a bunch of savages and bullies.

Not at all, I merely find your generalizations to be intellectually dishonest and downright harmful to creating an informed American public and for the promotion of strategically effective governmental policy. People like yourself and Pam reduce our ability to effectively combat terrorism.

 

[Osomir]

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

Colonialism? You mean, as in the Ottoman Empire?

Or perhaps you are talking the current situation involving Islam colonizing Europe?

In either case, the answer is "yes, of course". Islam's central tenets involve aggressive expansion, domination and subjugation of all in its path. What else do you expect from a totalitarian political ideology crafted by a war lord seeking a useful tool to bind his warriors to him?

Islam in itself is nothing but Arab imperialism and colonialism.

And yet most Muslims in the world aren't Arab.

 

[Osomir]

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

Colonialism? You mean, as in the Ottoman Empire?

The Ottoman Empire was certainly a primary target of criticism of Modernist and Liberal Muslims yes, but I also refer to European colonial powers of Muslim populations, from North Africa, to Indonesia, to India. And also referring to Muslims who lived at the time under repressive empire style governments such as the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union.

Your inability to address this issue honestly is rather causing you to show your insecurity when it comes to your understanding of the actual subject matter.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

And yet most Muslims in the world aren't Arab.

You get an A today, little buddy.

Great job at pointing out something we all know! It makes you look so smart.

 

[Osomir]

And yet most Muslims in the world aren't Arab.

You get an A today, little buddy.

Great job at pointing out something we all know! It makes you look so smart.

Islam lost its distinct connection to Arabization and Arab Empire with the formation of the Abbasid Caliphate in the 8th century. Trying to equate Islam with simple Arab imperialism, especially since perhaps the best known Islamic "Imperialist" power was the Turkish Ottoman Empire is just silly. Calling Islam 'Arab imperialism' represents a poor understanding of basic Islamic history post 8th century.

 

[irosie91]

Well just ask yourself this one question. If that sign was about black people instead of Jews would it be free speech or hate speech?

The ad is against Muslims.

Not so. The ads confront vicious Islamist militancy and the culture that spawned and cultivates it.

It promotes discord and incites violence. That's it.

So you think the West and non Muslim infidels in general should just never bring up Islamic savagery and intolerance. Let's suppress the truth and free speech in favor of a bunch of savages and bullies.

Not at all, I merely find your generalizations to be intellectually dishonest and downright harmful to created an informed American public and for the promotion of strategically effective governmental policy. People like Pam reduce our ability to effectively combat terrorism.

Pam is not part of the government of the USA------she is a private person expressing an opinion just as are the virulent hate mongering Imams in the mosques and even -----sometimes, on the city sidewalks. An informed American public has a right to be TRULY INFORMED. I fully support an opened exposition of
islamo Nazi filth----juxtaposed against all materials that
muslims find "offensive" How does COMPARATIVE
PROPAGANDA----act as a detriment on the war against
terrorism. ? So far I have seen a lot more islamo Nazi filth than "anti muslim" filth---------Of course I did grow up in a town in which muslim sponsored Nazi
propaganda was promulgated post world war II

 

[irosie91]

And yet most Muslims in the world aren't Arab.

You get an A today, little buddy.

Great job at pointing out something we all know! It makes you look so smart.

Yes-----GOOD POINT------most muslims today are not arabs and most do not know Arabic------but islam is a product of ARAB CULTURE -----and muslims world over are ----more or less "arab" fied (with the exception of Iranians who GAG at the thought)

 

[Osomir]

and muslims world over are ----more or less "arab" fied

Can you support this assertion with any data?

 

[irosie91]

You realize that Colonialism had a huge effect on Islamic discourse right? Trotting it out for discussion is perfectly relevant, especially since it overlapped with such a large part of Islamic modernist movements which defy your grand stereotypes of Islam. Either you can defend your blanket assertion or you can't.

Colonialism? You mean, as in the Ottoman Empire?

The Ottoman Empire was certain a primary target of criticism of Modernist and Liberal Muslims yes, but I also refer to European colonial powers of Muslim populations, from North Africa, to Indonesia, to India. And also referring to Muslims who lived at the time under repressive empire style governments such as the Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union.

Your inability to address this issue honestly is rather causing you to show your insecurity when it comes to your understanding of the actual subject matter.

it is a NON ISSUE------the whole world was under COLONIAL POWER------more or less -----at this or that
time------the MUSLIM CONTENTION that their
societies are forever and irrevocably harmed to the
point of paralysis --------is IDIOTIC . I learned all about it when I encountered people of southeast asia-----
well----mostly Pakistanis and Indians. Somehow even the INDIAN MUSLIMS were WRECKED FOREVER
by "WESTERN COLONIALISM"-----but the hindus and Sikhs managed to shake off that sense of ENDLESS
DAMAGE. How about if we address the horror and
irrevocable damage caused by the GLORIOUS AGE OF
ISLAMIC CONQUEST (of course-----I cannot use the dreaded world 'colonialism')

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Islam lost its distinct connection to Arabization and Arab Empire with the formation of the Abbasid Caliphate in the 8th century. Trying to equate Islam with simple Arab imperialism, especially since perhaps the best known Islamic "Imperialist" power was the Turkish Ottoman Empire is just silly. Calling Islam 'Arab imperialism' represents a poor understanding of basic Islamic history post 8th century.

Sura 8:39 (and dozens and dozens of others) contradict your claims.

The very fabric of the ideology in question is extremely imperialistic.