Any one wish to discuss Israel vs. Palestine here?

[sealadaigh]

Seal, what is it about Foxy's posts that makes you assume she's Jewish?

i probably shouldn't. she doesn't seem to be a christian zionist, nor does she seem like a rabid hater. somewhere along the line, you have to rely on experience. most of the people who present arguments like hers are jewish.

it was actually more of a question.

if i am mistaken...
i apologise foxfore.
and if i am not mistaken,
i apologise, foxfyre.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Okay, let's go with the United Nations giving it to them as a payoff for the entire free world looking the other way as Hitler murdered six million Jews. And that would include most of the Arab nations who cooperated with Himmler and other Nazi leaders in what history records as the North Africa Holocaust in which the Jews were targeted for explusion from or murder in those countries.

Where would the Jews go after the war? Back to Germany that had murdered so many; where their property had been confiscated or destroyed? To Russia where some of the most viscious pograms had been carried out against them? Or to some other place where they may or may not be denied their rights and/or persecuted in other ways because they were Jews?

i have been debating with myself not only as to how i should answer this but even whether i should. i certainly could haul out immigration charts and links and say "an enemy of my enemy" and mention the stern gang and irgun (who i have never referred to as "terrorists" ever, by the way) and engage you is some esoteric pissing contest.

but why? the past is the past and what is is.

you seem like a nice person, a caring person and i am assuming you are jewish. i totally understand your position. i used to live in ireland and knew true believers. they would do a lot of stupid things and get killed. i always figured you aren't going to be able to do much fighting if you are six feet under.

i am a gentile. my voice is not as strong as yours. israel listens to the voice of american jews. so let's skip over the past and move right into the solution phase of the competition.

a genocide is occurring to the palestinian people. i don't use that word without a lot of caution. i have been supporting the palestinian cause for some 40 years now, and just started using it. history will record it and, because of what happened to the jews in WWII, you will be eternally linked to the NAZIs. your legacy will be as their's. furthermore, a genocide of the palestinian people is going to be the death of judaism. germany was big, and they are still recovering from what they have done to the jews. they still suffer from a national shame. these things do not go away. israel, and judaism, is much smaller.

so let's cut to the quick. i hear jewish people, israel supporters, talk a lot and excuse israel for all kinds of things, but i want your answer. i want you to tell me what you think the solution is. i want you to tell me what it will take for jews and israelis to help create a strong and viable palestinian state? what should the borders be? what kind of cooperation should they expect on east jerusalem? how can israel help palestine be a good neighbour and a prosperous country? what is a soloution to the refugee issue?

all i really hear from israel is why something cannot be done, and i never even hear a why, and all i see right now is israel making worse enemies in the region.

The solution is quite simple. The Palestinians should:
1. Stop sending suicide bombers into Israel to kill, injure, and maim as many men, women, and children as possible.
2. Stop booby trapping Israeli installations for the same purpose.
3. Stop firing rockets randomly into Israeli residential neighborhoods with the hope of hitting and killing or maiming somebody.
4. Stop kidnapping, torturing, and murdering Israeli citizens.
5. Demand that their leaders denounce ALL terrorism against Israelis, deal harshly with any who commit it, and remove all inflammatory language against Israel from their mandates, charters, and statements of purpose.
6. Pledge to be good neighbors of Israel and follow through by being good neighbors of Israel.

If they do this, make it stick, and Israel does not then become a good and honorable neighbor to the Palestinians, then Israel will be harshly criticized by me and I will not feel all that charitable about supporting Israel.

Until, then, I will not fault the Israelis for doing anything and everythng that they feel they must to protect and defend their people.

1. Ended long ago, the first ever suicide bombing Hamas did was after Baruch goldstein killed 29 Palestinians while they were praying

2. ????

3. None of those are random, very few are random and involve smaller groups

4. When does this happen? Are you talking about Shalit? He was captured and wasn't tortured go ask him personally if you live in Israel

5. If Israel leaves Palestinians drowning in blood, then no parties in Israel

6. Yeah because Israel is a good neighbor

 

[Billo_Really]

It was your source. I have not seen a source from you that counters the claim.

I went back and read my source again and I don't see that claim anywhere in the report. If you think it's there, then you're gonna have to show it. Because right now, it ain't there!

Then you have -nothing- to show that Israel comitted acts of terrorism, as defined by you and as decribed in this conversation.

The articles titled, "The history of Israeli terror killings" and I've proven my point. All you've done, is talk about stuff. You haven't even proven your objection has merit.

 

[M14 Shooter]

It was your source. I have not seen a source from you that counters the claim.

I went back and read my source again and I don't see that claim anywhere in the report.

Your source contained a link within its text that described the actual attack itself.
I quoted it.

Then you have -nothing- to show that Israel comitted acts of terrorism, as defined by you and as decribed in this conversation.

The articles titled, "The history of Israeli terror killings"...

...and offers no proof that the events listed were -actually- terrorist atatcks.
Your list, without that proof, proves nothing.

 

[Foxfyre]

i have been debating with myself not only as to how i should answer this but even whether i should. i certainly could haul out immigration charts and links and say "an enemy of my enemy" and mention the stern gang and irgun (who i have never referred to as "terrorists" ever, by the way) and engage you is some esoteric pissing contest.

but why? the past is the past and what is is.

you seem like a nice person, a caring person and i am assuming you are jewish. i totally understand your position. i used to live in ireland and knew true believers. they would do a lot of stupid things and get killed. i always figured you aren't going to be able to do much fighting if you are six feet under.

i am a gentile. my voice is not as strong as yours. israel listens to the voice of american jews. so let's skip over the past and move right into the solution phase of the competition.

a genocide is occurring to the palestinian people. i don't use that word without a lot of caution. i have been supporting the palestinian cause for some 40 years now, and just started using it. history will record it and, because of what happened to the jews in WWII, you will be eternally linked to the NAZIs. your legacy will be as their's. furthermore, a genocide of the palestinian people is going to be the death of judaism. germany was big, and they are still recovering from what they have done to the jews. they still suffer from a national shame. these things do not go away. israel, and judaism, is much smaller.

so let's cut to the quick. i hear jewish people, israel supporters, talk a lot and excuse israel for all kinds of things, but i want your answer. i want you to tell me what you think the solution is. i want you to tell me what it will take for jews and israelis to help create a strong and viable palestinian state? what should the borders be? what kind of cooperation should they expect on east jerusalem? how can israel help palestine be a good neighbour and a prosperous country? what is a soloution to the refugee issue?

all i really hear from israel is why something cannot be done, and i never even hear a why, and all i see right now is israel making worse enemies in the region.

The solution is quite simple. The Palestinians should:
1. Stop sending suicide bombers into Israel to kill, injure, and maim as many men, women, and children as possible.
2. Stop booby trapping Israeli installations for the same purpose.
3. Stop firing rockets randomly into Israeli residential neighborhoods with the hope of hitting and killing or maiming somebody.
4. Stop kidnapping, torturing, and murdering Israeli citizens.
5. Demand that their leaders denounce ALL terrorism against Israelis, deal harshly with any who commit it, and remove all inflammatory language against Israel from their mandates, charters, and statements of purpose.
6. Pledge to be good neighbors of Israel and follow through by being good neighbors of Israel.

If they do this, make it stick, and Israel does not then become a good and honorable neighbor to the Palestinians, then Israel will be harshly criticized by me and I will not feel all that charitable about supporting Israel.

Until, then, I will not fault the Israelis for doing anything and everythng that they feel they must to protect and defend their people.

that really doesn't sound like a solution to me. for one thing, they have pretty much done a lot of these things. israel is the one who has constantly broken agreements anyway.

i am asking you, then, suppose all these things were true (and again, many of them are) what do you think israel should do to help thye palestinian people be prosperous and in a viable homeland...i.e. be a good neoghbour to israel?

it is not a threatening question or even a position based question. it is an interest based question. ti is interest based to not go through each of the six point you mentioned and refute them.

i will say this. i do think it is natve, to say the least, to just say that the israelis will do right by the palestinians.

let me throw this out for you. we have UNGA resolution 181 which whatever body representing palestine neither accepted or rejected. ok. then we have some sort of war, some call it a civil war, some call it an arab israeli war...and the israelis win...in 1948. i am still with you. BUT, in 1949 after a cessation of hostilities the UN does a UNGA resolution 273 where israel, in order to become a UN member state, agrees with the UN to abide by UNGA 181. that is an agreement with the UN and has nothing to do with anything else. israel has a right to defend her borders certainly but also has an obligation not to expand her borders.

so i will hand you 181 and i will hand you the present situation and i will ask you to give me some concrete proposals as to a solution based on making a viable palestinian state with the knowledge that if, indeed, the palestinians are genocided, you are aware that thestate of israel will no longer exist in the future.

so what works for both. you have the offered, the twice offered, arab peace initiative.

try to think 50 years into the future, and try to put yourself not only of the palestinians, but also the israelis who have to live there.

also, my compliments. usually people duck and run when approached with that question.

The population of Israel is just over 7 million with about 80% being Jews and most of the rest being Palestinian Arabs. That is less than the population of New York City and it occupies a tiny tract of land 1/8th the size of Florida.

The Palestinian population is between 2 and 3 million--it was considerably less in 1948--and they would already have a homeland if they had accepted any number of U.N. plans of apportionment, all of which were agreed to by Israel. But the Palestinians wanted it all--they wanted Israel out--and therefore they rejected every plan.

I don't see Israel as having any responsibility for the welfare of the Palestinians. The Palestinians sure don't accept any responsibility for the welfare of Israel. The Arab population in the Middle East and Africa is approximately 200 million and covers a huge tract of land and controls a very large amount of the world's wealth. They could have long ago furnished a solution for the Palestinians but chose not to do so because they could use the Palestinians to get at Israel.

Should the Palestinians denounce and cease their terrorist activities toward Israel and demonstrate they are willing to live in peace with Israel, then I would expect Israel to cease and desist all militant actions toward Palestine and accept the Palestinians as visitors and customers as they would accept any other people who are friendly toward Israel. That is what being a good neighbor is.

Until then, I support Israel's right to protect its people however it is necessary to do that.

 

[Dot Com]

Is israel still building in East Jeruselum (Palestinian land)?
U.S.: Israel plan to build in East Jerusalem harms peace process - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

Israel to build 700 new homes in East Jerusalem; state also may seize private Palestinian land in West Bank.

Gentrifying the Palestinians out of their land.

 

[Billo_Really]

Your source contained a link within its text that described the actual attack itself.
I quoted it.

Then provide it! That "link", becomes your source, since it is the citation of your claim.

...and offers no proof that the events listed were -actually- terrorist atatcks.
Your list, without that proof, proves nothing.

Wrong. That list IS THE PROOF!

What have you provided, to refute that list? Nothing! You've provided nothing but conjecture. Well, I guess you can say that's something; but it still proves nothing.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Wrong. That list IS THE PROOF!

If that list qualifies as "proof" to you, then there's no need for me to waste any more time here.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Is israel still building in East Jeruselum (Palestinian land)?

Are Americans building houses in Texas?


After Jordan gave up its claim on the WB, it becamse Israeli land.
As such, there's no argument against Israelis building there.

 

[Al_Fundie]

Someone needs to have the guts to tell the Israelis and the "Palestinians" to grow up.

Israel should be forced to remove all the stupid barricades and such , but at the same time the "Palestinians" need to understand that Israel has an absolute right to defend herself and if they don't like the results of that mayhaps they should start policing themselves in regards to harboring terrorists.

Oh and while they are at it , perhaps the "Palestinians" should ask their "brothers" in the region why no one is offering to assist them in bettering their reality. Oh that's right, the other Muslims in the region are too busy using them to actually help them.

Due to political pandering , I doubt we EVER see a US politician get up and honestly say both sides are in the wrong and need to change their behaviors.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Oh and while they are at it , perhaps the "Palestinians" should ask their "brothers" in the region why no one is offering to assist them in bettering their reality. Oh that's right, the other Muslims in the region are too busy using them to actually help them.

The Palestinians should ask Jordan why she doesn't want them back.

 

[Billo_Really]

Israel should be forced to remove all the stupid barricades and such , but at the same time the "Palestinians" need to understand that Israel has an absolute right to defend herself and if they don't like the results of that mayhaps they should start policing themselves in regards to harboring terrorists.

An "occupational force" cannot claim self-defense!

 

[Billo_Really]

If that list qualifies as "proof" to you, then there's no need for me to waste any more time here.

If you're going to continue to act like your personal feelings towards my source is a valid rebuttal,
then I agree it's a waste of time.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If that list qualifies as "proof" to you, then there's no need for me to waste any more time here.

If you're going to continue to act like your personal feelings towards my source is a valid rebuttal,
then I agree it's a waste of time.

Your list claims the events are terrorist attacks.
Neither your nor your list does anything to show those claims to be true.
You do not recognize the significance of this, and so to continue to argue the point is a waste of time.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Israel should be forced to remove all the stupid barricades and such , but at the same time the "Palestinians" need to understand that Israel has an absolute right to defend herself and if they don't like the results of that mayhaps they should start policing themselves in regards to harboring terrorists.

An "occupational force" cannot claim self-defense!

Israel cannot "occupy" Israeli territory.

 

[Dot Com]

Israel should be forced to remove all the stupid barricades and such , but at the same time the "Palestinians" need to understand that Israel has an absolute right to defend herself and if they don't like the results of that mayhaps they should start policing themselves in regards to harboring terrorists.

An "occupational force" cannot claim self-defense!

agreed. They're referred to as "the occupied territories" for a reason. Its analogous to myself going to iraq or afghanistan and building a house simply because there are boots on the ground.

 

[MHunterB]

Is israel still building in East Jeruselum (Palestinian land)?
U.S.: Israel plan to build in East Jerusalem harms peace process - Israel News | Haaretz Daily Newspaper

Israel to build 700 new homes in East Jerusalem; state also may seize private Palestinian land in West Bank.

Gentrifying the Palestinians out of their land.

This is the same 'East Jerusalem' which Jordan took control of from Israel in '48 - ejecting all the Jewish residents - and maintained control and occupation over until '67 when Jordan was forced out again by Israel.

So where's the basis for even suggesting that EJ is "Palestinian" land?

And the basis for concern over ejection of Palestinians is rather eroded by the ignoring of the Jordanian ethnic cleansing of Jerusalem . East Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[georgephillip]

Is israel still building in East Jeruselum (Palestinian land)?

Are Americans building houses in Texas?


After Jordan gave up its claim on the WB, it becamse Israeli land.
As such, there's no argument against Israelis building there.

The West Bank never legally belonged to Jordan:

"Jordan’s annexation was widely regarded as illegal and void by the Arab League and others, including Israel.[citation needed] The move formed part of Jordan’s 'Greater Syria Plan' expansionist policy,[15] and in response, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria joined Egypt in demanding Jordan’s expulsion from the Arab League..."

King Hussein had no legal right to the West Bank, and neither did the Zionists.
In 1947 Jews held 6% of the land yet were given 55% of Palestine by the UN.
Arabs found that unfair and war broke out.
Jews won and enlarged their total holdings to about 75% of Palestine, displacing over 700,000 Palestinians in the process.

Both the Hague Regulations (1907) and the UN Charter (1945) attest to the illegality of acquiring territory by force.

btw, Texas was stolen in much the same way.

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Al_Fundie]

Is israel still building in East Jeruselum (Palestinian land)?

Are Americans building houses in Texas?


After Jordan gave up its claim on the WB, it becamse Israeli land.
As such, there's no argument against Israelis building there.

The West Bank never legally belonged to Jordan:

"Jordan’s annexation was widely regarded as illegal and void by the Arab League and others, including Israel.[citation needed] The move formed part of Jordan’s 'Greater Syria Plan' expansionist policy,[15] and in response, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria joined Egypt in demanding Jordan’s expulsion from the Arab League..."

King Hussein had no legal right to the West Bank, and neither did the Zionists.
In 1947 Jews held 6% of the land yet were given 55% of Palestine by the UN.
Arabs found that unfair and war broke out.
Jews won and enlarged their total holdings to about 75% of Palestine, displacing over 700,000 Palestinians in the process.

Both the Hague Regulations (1907) and the UN Charter (1945) attest to the illegality of acquiring territory by force.

btw, Texas was stolen in much the same way.

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Taking land by force is only illegal if someone can stop you.

 

[Billo_Really]

Your list claims the events are terrorist attacks.
Neither your nor your list does anything to show those claims to be true.
You do not recognize the significance of this, and so to continue to argue the point is a waste of time.

The list shows arab civilians killed by jewish terrorist groups. You don't consider a terrorist group killing an innocent civilian an act of terrorism? What would you call it?

This is all just a moot point. Since you provide no refutable evidence, you haven't even proven you have a valid argument.