CDZ Are anti gunners serious when they say they will stop at 10 round magazines?

[RetiredGySgt]

again for the slow and stupid, the 2nd amendment specifically protects weapons of use to the military as so ruled by the supreme court.

 

[2aguy]

more effective than asking them to stop killing us.

Have you had a problem with the government killing you. Do you expect the government to kill you in the near future?

The German people in the 1920s didn't have any thoughts that their government would murder them....20 years later the German government murdered 6 million unarmed Germans in gas chambers.....

20 years......

100 years ago.

Funny........the Jews say "Never Forget." People like you not only forgot, you want to repeat the same mistake that allowed it to happen.

This is not Nazi Germany.

In the 1920s Germany wasn't nazi Germany either.....20 years later it was....

 

[2aguy]

The Heller decision was a gift to the anti-gun control crowd

They found that the DC restrictions on handguns were excessive and were not supported by a pressing government interest

But even Heller made it clear that the government had a right to ban certain firearms if they could prove a pressing societal reason for the ban

Given the preference of mass murderers to use assault type weapons with large capacity magazines and the lack of a pressing reason why private citizens need so much firepower...Even Heller would agree with the ban

Yeah....no. Considering there are 13 million AR-15 rifles in private hands...and 2 were used for crimes......one by a guy who was already banned from owning one and who the government screwed up in his background check.....and no, you don't get to ban them.....

And magazine size has nothing to do with how many people die.....you have seen the research...here it is again...

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

The AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for mass killers
If you are going to slaughter a bunch of young children, an AR-15 makes you look like a badass and fulfills your Rambo fantasies

No...it hasn't. In fact, most mass public shooters use hand guns.....

If you really want to kill a bunch of children...would you use a gun that takes 2 of them to murder 58 people or a rental truck that lets you kill 89?

 

[BlackSand]

and that's the rub. they keep saying they're far worse than "normal" guns but can't define it from there that doesn't include a ruger 10/22 rifle as well.

so the rule of "scary" is as good as any other they toss out but now they can just say a mini-14 looks scary cause of the barrel cover.

the more they try the more they realize there are not real major differences other than the looks and you can ACCESSORIZE many ar-15s as the added bonus. so make a rule of "can't put more than 3 items on your gun at a time" next?

The rub is that what people are trying to ban is something a lot of us already own ... And that presents a problem no one wants to talk about.

The people who want to ban them ... Are acting like we are asking for something ... When it is something we already have.
They have nothing to offer except threatening to take what we have and further restrict our Constitutionally protected rights.

That would require surrender ... Not compromise ... And I don't want to see the crap that would lead to (sorry).

.

 

[Crixus]

The left always says they just want common sense gun control....and one of those measures they always want is a limit on 10 bullets for all magazines

Now, keep in mind, this will not limit the deaths in mass shootings, as actual research shows. The killers, like the guy in Texas had plenty of magazines and changed them 14 times while he was murdering those people.

And Criminals won't care about a 10 round limit because they will just get theirs illegally, and they can rape a woman just as easily with a 10 round magazine, murder a rival or rob someone.

The only people a 10 round magazine limit effects is the law abiding gun owner, who does not commit any crime or murder. People who have guns that take 15-19 rounds in their pistols...will now be criminals if they don't do something with their guns.....dittos rifles that will take 30 round magazines.....

I have listed the points made by David Kopel on why law abiding people need more than 10 rounds, in other places and would happily do so again. I have also posted the ruling by the California judge placing a hold on the new California magazine ban where he accurately takes apart all of the arguments made against 10 round magazines.

The question, however, is this.........if the anti gunners get all the 15-30 round magazines....will they leave the 10 round magazines alone?

Keep in mind, the Santa Barbara shooter used 10 round magazines to murder 6 people.......

Meh, I prefer a ten round magazine. What I don’t understand is how those who eat this up on the left can swallow this and not feel that their intelligence wasn’t insulted.

 

[BlackSand]

again for the slow and stupid, the 2nd amendment specifically protects weapons of use to the military as so ruled by the supreme court.

I agree ...

The Founding Fathers could not have foreseen the advancements in modern technology ... BUT
They had just used the firearms they had available to overthrow an oppressive government in a Revolution.

It would be stupid to think they did not consider that when writing the Second Amendment ...

.

 

[BULLDOG]

If Select fire and full auto is not the only difference between a designed for combat M-16, and an Ar-15 what is?

Depending on the make and model ... The caliber of the cartridge, basic operation, actual design and available attachment options.
The rounds aren't even the same for all models ... And can range from .223, NATO 5.56 x 45 to 7.62 x 39 (.308).

I am pretty sure this is why the argument is generally a bunch of minutia ... There are no absolutes.
The weapons can be confused ... Different manufacturers make them differently (they also don't all have the same name or nomenclature).

It would be tough to write legislation because it would also have to include firearms that don't necessarily meet all of those requirements.
It would be easier to write a law that simply stated ... No more "scary guns" because that is about the only thing they actually all have in common (to some people anyway).

.

Don't be ridiculous. A gun specifically designed for military use in combat has no reasonable purpose for civilian use, even if it is no longer full auto capable.

 

[rightwinger]

The Heller decision was a gift to the anti-gun control crowd

They found that the DC restrictions on handguns were excessive and were not supported by a pressing government interest

But even Heller made it clear that the government had a right to ban certain firearms if they could prove a pressing societal reason for the ban

Given the preference of mass murderers to use assault type weapons with large capacity magazines and the lack of a pressing reason why private citizens need so much firepower...Even Heller would agree with the ban

Yeah....no. Considering there are 13 million AR-15 rifles in private hands...and 2 were used for crimes......one by a guy who was already banned from owning one and who the government screwed up in his background check.....and no, you don't get to ban them.....

And magazine size has nothing to do with how many people die.....you have seen the research...here it is again...

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

The AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for mass killers
If you are going to slaughter a bunch of young children, an AR-15 makes you look like a badass and fulfills your Rambo fantasies

No...it hasn't. In fact, most mass public shooters use hand guns.....

If you really want to kill a bunch of children...would you use a gun that takes 2 of them to murder 58 people or a rental truck that lets you kill 89?

How many mass killers have taken the truck option?

No fun running people down with a truck when you can tell a bunch of six year olds hiding under their desks........Say hello to my little friend!

 

[MaryL]

Being that when the second amendment was written, firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons. And the 1700's wasn't prone to serial murders or terrorism. Times have changed, mindsets have changed, and technology has advanced beyond what our forefathers could have comprehended. We have to reassess our need for firearms (and various side issues relating to them) and put things in perspective.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Being that when the second amendment was written, firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons. And the 1700's wasn't prone to serial murders or terrorism. Times have changed, mindsets have changed, and technology has advanced beyond what our forefathers could have comprehended. We have to reassess our need for firearms (and various side issues relating to them) and put things in perspective.

firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons


false

why do you keep making that claim

 

[jon_berzerk]

The first effective breech-loading and repeating flintlock firearms were developed in the early 1600s. One early magazine repeater has been attributed to North America, having separate tubular magazines in the stock for balls and powder and a lever-activated breech mechanism that selected and loaded a ball and a charge, also priming the flash pan and setting the gun on half cock.

repeating rifle | firearm

 

[jon_berzerk]

get tired of that single shot flintlock excuse

The above weapon is an example of the Cookson repeater, found at the National Museum in Washington DC. It dates from about 1686 and has the inscription "John Cookson Fecit" (Latin for "Made by John Cookson") on the top barrel. The long lever that operates the Lorenzoni repeating system can clearly be seen in the above image. It is hard to tell if the barrel is of the laminated type or the twist type. The front side is an upside down crescent and practically all of the metal on this gun is engraved with flags, drums, cannon balls, cannon being fired, muskets, pikes etc.. On the lock is a scroll bearing the maker's name and held up on the left side by the figure of an angel and on the right side by a female figure (presumably Queen Elizabeth I).

The gun has a smoothbore barrel, uses a flintlock firing mechanism and fires spherical balls weighing about 260 grains, with about 125 grains of powder. The bullet magazine has the capacity to hold ten bullets and the powder magazine holds enough powder for ten shots.


Firearms History, Technology & Development: The Cookson Repeater

again well before the writing of the 2nd

 

[jon_berzerk]

Kalthoff-type flintlock rifle (1600s)

Kalthoff repeater - Wikipedia

 

[jon_berzerk]

 

[MaryL]

Being that when the second amendment was written, firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons. And the 1700's wasn't prone to serial murders or terrorism. Times have changed, mindsets have changed, and technology has advanced beyond what our forefathers could have comprehended. We have to reassess our need for firearms (and various side issues relating to them) and put things in perspective.

firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons


false

why do you keep making that claim

I knew someone would say this. Please, we are not talking about some esoteric weapons here. Our forefathers didn't have modern day guns in mind when they wrote the 2nd amendment, let alone realize how their rulings would be abused by future generations. They couldn't have known . Well, we DO.

 

[jon_berzerk]

Lorenzoni Repeating Flintlock Pistol

 

[jon_berzerk]

Being that when the second amendment was written, firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons. And the 1700's wasn't prone to serial murders or terrorism. Times have changed, mindsets have changed, and technology has advanced beyond what our forefathers could have comprehended. We have to reassess our need for firearms (and various side issues relating to them) and put things in perspective.

firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons


false

why do you keep making that claim

I knew someone would say this. Please, we are not talking about some esoteric weapons here. Our forefathers didn't have modern day guns in mind when they wrote the 2nd amendment, let alone realize how their rulings would be abused by future generations. They couldn't have known . Well, we DO.

they surely did

the did not pen

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed except
for the Lorenzoni pistol

 

[jon_berzerk]

many repeating firearms existed at the time

 

[jon_berzerk]

my personal favorite

the Girandoni

Lewis and Clark carried one

 

[MaryL]

Being that when the second amendment was written, firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons. And the 1700's wasn't prone to serial murders or terrorism. Times have changed, mindsets have changed, and technology has advanced beyond what our forefathers could have comprehended. We have to reassess our need for firearms (and various side issues relating to them) and put things in perspective.

firearm technology was limited to muzzle loading single shot weapons


false

why do you keep making that claim

I knew someone would say this. Please, we are not talking about some esoteric weapons here. Our forefathers didn't have modern day guns in mind when they wrote the 2nd amendment, let alone realize how their rulings would be abused by future generations. They couldn't have known . Well, we DO.

they surely did

the did not pen

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed except
for the Lorenzoni pistol

If they foresaw 200 years down the road their decision would allow the slaughter of 20 children at a elementary school, I think we would have a different set of principals in motion now.