Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[BS Filter]

What truth?

That something has to die to remit sin.

 

[rosends]

Did the ram die?

It was offered as a sacrifice so, according to a simple reading of the text, yes, it died. There is no mention of sin, though.

 

[TruthNotBS]

We are waiting for Moshiach. He will rebuild the Temple, amongst other things. Prophets were not writing about events hundresds of year in the future.

Are you sure about that? Rabbi Tovia Singer, the well-known anti-missionary, and many other rabbis recognize that the prophets foretold the future. They cite passages in TeNaK about the advent of the Messiah and the construction of a third temple. They consider those verses prophecies of future events. So I don't understand why you deny that prophets or prophecy are foretelling the future.

1. 
   Isaiah 46:9-10 - "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me; declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying: 'My counsel shall stand, and all My pleasure will I do.'"
2. Isaiah 48:3-5 - "I have declared the former things from of old; yea, they went forth out of My mouth, and I announced them; suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. Because I knew that thou art obstinate, and thy neck is an iron sinew, and thy brow brass; therefore I have declared it to thee from of old; before it came to pass I announced it to thee; lest thou shouldest say: 'Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.'"

God also gave prophets the ability to foretell future events. Here are a few examples:

1. Jeremiah 25:11-12 - "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the Lord, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it desolate forever."
2. Ezekiel 26:7-14 - This passage contains a prophecy against the city of Tyre, where God speaks through the prophet Ezekiel about how Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, will destroy Tyre.
3. Daniel 2:31-45 - Daniel interprets King Nebuchadnezzar's dream, which is about a large statue made of various materials. This statue represented various kingdoms, and Daniel told the king that God had shown him what would take place in the future.

 

[BS Filter]

It was offered as a sacrifice so, according to a simple reading of the text, yes, it died. There is no mention of sin, though.

So what was the sacrifice for?

 

[TruthNotBS]

I’m pretty sure Jews and Christians who think only their “God” is the “real God” are suffering from profound ignorance … a kind of organized insanity!

Both are profoundly wrong about many things, especially when they argue that their Holy Books express the … “true word of God.”

Reality confirms Christianity.

 

[TruthNotBS]

So what was the sacrifice for?

In the Hebrew Bible, blood plays a significant role in rituals, especially in the consecration of covenants, holy objects, and people. It was considered to have sanctifying properties and was used in various religious rites. Here are some passages that illustrate the importance of blood:

1. Exodus 24:5-8 - This passage illustrates how blood was used to consecrate the covenant between God and the Israelites: "And he sent young men of the children of Israel, who offered burnt-offerings, and sacrificed peace-offerings of oxen unto the Lord. And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he dashed against the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the hearing of the people; and they said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken will we do, and obey.' And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said: 'Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you in agreement with all these words.'"
2. Leviticus 16:14-15 - Here, the use of blood in the ritual of the Day of Atonement is described, symbolizing purification and sanctification: "And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the ark-cover on the east side; and before the ark-cover shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times. Then shall he kill the goat of the sin-offering, that is for the people, and bring its blood within the veil, and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the ark-cover, and before the ark-cover."
3. Exodus 29:20-21 - Blood was also used in the consecration of priests. This passage describes the ritual for consecrating Aaron and his sons: "And thou shalt slaughter the ram, and take of its blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and dash the blood against the altar round about. And thou shalt take of the blood that is upon the altar, and of the anointing oil, and sprinkle it upon Aaron, and upon his garments, and upon his sons, and upon the garments of his sons with him; and he and his garments shall be hallowed, and his sons, and his sons' garments with him."
4. Leviticus 17:11 - This verse emphasizes the significance of blood in atonement: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life."

These passages demonstrate the central role that blood played in ancient Hebrew rituals. Blood was seen as a sacred substance that represented life and was essential for purifying, consecrating, and establishing covenants. It was a fundamental element in establishing a relationship between the Israelites and God. Be not fooled by unbelieving "rabbinic" Jewish people.

 

[rosends]

So what was the sacrifice for?

to show submission to God, and establish a nearness, strengthening a relationship.

 

[BS Filter]

It was offered as a sacrifice so, according to a simple reading of the text, yes, it died. There is no mention of sin, though.

Verse page
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Then on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting. The priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, and make atonement for him concerning his sin because of the dead person. And that same day he shall consecrate his head,

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Verse Concepts
He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering,
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Verse Concepts
‘Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering.
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Verse Concepts
And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering.

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Verse Concepts
also one male goat to make atonement for you.
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Offer one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you, besides the burnt offering of the new moon and its grain offering, and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings, according to their ordinance, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.
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Verse Concepts
one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.

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Verse Concepts
Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Notice all the times sin is mentioned.​

 

[BS Filter]

to show submission to God, and establish a nearness, strengthening a relationship.

Verse please.

 

[TruthNotBS]

to show submission to God, and establish a nearness, strengthening a relationship.

And to purify and consecrate.

 

[rosends]

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Then on the eighth day he shall bring two turtledoves or two young pigeons to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting. The priest shall offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering, and make atonement for him concerning his sin because of the dead person. And that same day he shall consecrate his head,

Verse page
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Verse Concepts
He shall present his offering to the Lord: one male lamb a year old without defect for a burnt offering and one ewe-lamb a year old without defect for a sin offering and one ram without defect for a peace offering,
Verse page
" data-hasqtip="7" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Numbers 15:27
Verse Concepts
‘Also if one person sins unintentionally, then he shall offer a one year old female goat for a sin offering.
Verse page
" data-hasqtip="8" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Numbers 28:15
Verse Concepts
And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering.

Verse page
" data-hasqtip="9" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Numbers 28:30
Verse Concepts
also one male goat to make atonement for you.
Verse page
" data-hasqtip="10" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Numbers 29:5-6

Offer one male goat for a sin offering, to make atonement for you, besides the burnt offering of the new moon and its grain offering, and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings, according to their ordinance, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord.
Verse page
" data-hasqtip="11" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Numbers 29:11
Verse Concepts
one male goat for a sin offering, besides the sin offering of atonement and the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, and their drink offerings.

Verse page
" data-hasqtip="12" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); text-decoration: none; transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out 0s; font-size: 15px; font-weight: 700;">Daniel 11:31
Verse Concepts
Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation.

Notice all the times sin is mentioned.​

so you have places where there are sacrifices that deal with sin. This doesn't mean all sacrifices deal with sin. Should I string together all the verses that mention sacrifices that are unrelated to sin?

 

[TruthNotBS]

to show submission to God, and establish a nearness, strengthening a relationship.

1. 
   Ezekiel 4:4-6 - The prophet Ezekiel is commanded by God to bear the iniquity of Israel and Judah by lying on his sides for a significant number of days, symbolizing the years of their iniquity. "Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it; according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it, thou shalt bear their iniquity. For I have appointed the years of their iniquity to be unto thee a number of days, even three hundred and ninety days; so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, thou shalt lie again on thy right side, and shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah; forty days, each day for a year, have I appointed it unto thee."
2. Leviticus 16:21-22 - On the Day of Atonement, the High Priest would lay his hands on the head of a live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the Israelites, and send it away into the wilderness. This act symbolically transferred the sins of the people onto the goat. "And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of an appointed man into the wilderness. And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land which is cut off; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness."
3. Numbers 25:6-13 - Phinehas, the grandson of Aaron, makes atonement for the Israelites by executing an Israelite man and a Midianite woman who were engaged in idolatry and illicit behavior. God then declares that Phinehas's zealous actions have turned back His wrath from the Israelites. "And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting. And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand. And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. [...] Therefore say: Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace; and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel."

These examples illustrate the concept of atonement in the Hebrew Bible, where individuals take on burdens or perform actions that symbolically or effectively serve to reconcile the people with God. The Messiah does the same. He is an atonement.

 

[BS Filter]

so you have places where there are sacrifices that deal with sin. This doesn't mean all sacrifices deal with sin. Should I string together all the verses that mention sacrifices that are unrelated to sin?

So now you're backtracking. You admit that there are sacrifices for sin. Thank you. That's all I needed, some honesty.

 

[AsherN]

So now you're backtracking. You admit that there are sacrifices for sin. Thank you. That's all I needed, some honesty.

We never said there weren't. Try to follow along. There are many reasons for "sacrifices", although the word used is usually offering.. Sin is one of them. There are many types of offerings. Some involve the killing of an animal. Some don't.

 

[buttercup]

to show submission to God, and establish a nearness, strengthening a relationship.

I don't mean this to sound rude, it's an honest question... why do you believe that slaughtering an innocent animal would "strengthen" one's relationship with God?

Here are some passages that show what God really thought about animal sacrifices....


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.


Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.


Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.


Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.


Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.


Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

 

[rosends]

Verse please.

well, the verses in genesis don't give any other reason. No mention of a holiday, or mention of sin. So you can see this as a voluntary sacrifice (as per Lev 1:3) that a person gives as an ascending offering to God which establishes the human relationship with God on a voluntary level (submission).

 

[BS Filter]

We never said there weren't. Try to follow along. There are many reasons for "sacrifices", although the word used is usually offering.. Sin is one of them. There are many types of offerings. Some involve the killing of an animal. Some don't.

Then why didn't you say so in the first place. You clearly have an agenda and only admit to the full truth when you run out of wiggle room.

 

[BS Filter]

well, the verses in genesis don't give any other reason. No mention of a holiday, or mention of sin. So you can see this as a voluntary sacrifice (as per Lev 1:3) that a person gives as an ascending offering to God which establishes the human relationship with God on a voluntary level (submission).

Correct. Death was to show the penalty for sin. God isn't pleased with death, but uses it to teach us that sin has a consequence.

 

[rosends]

I don't mean this to sound rude, it's an honest question... why do you believe that slaughtering an innocent animal would "strengthen" one's relationship with God?

Here are some passages that show what God really thought about animal sacrifices....


Psalm 40:6

Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.



Psalm 51:16-17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart —
These, O God, You will not despise.



Proverbs 21:3

To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.



Jeremiah 7:22-24

For I did not speak to your fathers or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.



Hosea 6:6

For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.



1 Samuel 15:22

But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.



Isaiah 1:11-17

“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.

I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.

“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.

The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.
Your hands are full of blood.

“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.



Micah 6:8

He has shown you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justly,
To love mercy,
And to walk humbly with your God?

That's a fair question. The answer has a couple of elements to it:
the first is that not all sacrifice was animal based, so there is no absolute statement that the relationship needs a dead animal. What strenghtens the relationship is A) following what God asks for B) giving up something of value to another as a show of submission and/or C) acknowledging that all is God's

but the second is equally important -- that insincere sacrifice, or sacrifice when one is not following the laws is useless. God wants obedience. If that obedience includes sacrifice then that's great. But sacrifice without obedience is useless.

 

[rosends]

Correct. Death was to show the penalty for sin.

Who said that? That wasn't in what I said so I'm not sure what you are saying is "correct".