Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[BS Filter]

According to Christian interpretations. We view it as a test. we also don't ascribe to the concept of original sin.

Who is "we"?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

I’m trying to follow along with this “debate” about “blood sacrifice” and sin to see if there are any useful takeaways here.

Besides disputatious references to “Holy Book” texts and prophets and rabbis and differing Christian interpretations, unmentioned here are secular views recognizing the profound importance of the sacred, of ritual, and of complicated and contradictory human attitudes toward violence and “sacrifice.”

All this has been manifest throughout human history and studied by historians of comparative religion, anthropologists … even psychoanalysts of the “collective unconscious.” One doesn’t have to go back to Greek mythology to see similar impulses manifesting themselves clearly outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

What I am looking for, and mostly failing to find, is any clear evidence that either believing in Jesus as the “Son of God,” or believing that waiting for a “Messiah” to rebuild a Temple in Jerusalem, will in any way better lead mankind to overcome its sometimes apparent “death wish.” From the discussion here it is hardly clear to me that either belief helps bring any real “peace of mind” or tolerance and wisdom.

Human children as they develop first experience a confused kind of “magical thinking.” Many of us spend our lifetimes in a dull existential anguish or in states of frustration or pain or longing … and never escape socially approved “magical thinking” until we die.

Organized religions can give solace and comfort, but they are also like … drugs. Drugs can heighten our perceptions. They can heal the sick. They can even help us “to find God.” But they don’t affect everybody the same…

I strongly recommend not taking drugs if you discover they make you go crazy or lose your reason.

 

[rosends]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I agree with some of the things you said, but overall I see it differently. First, I don't believe that God ever wanted animal sacrifices in the first place. But I think that often God meets us where we're at, and works to change us from there. I'll try to explain what I mean by that.

In the ancient world, animal sacrifice was a common practice that was already taking place in many cultures (some say it originated in Egypt.) It would make sense that God's people would begin sacrificing animals, since they were in Egypt for hundreds of years.

So assuming the passages regarding animal sacrifices are legit (btw, the Bible itself mentions "lying scribes," but that's a topic for another thread) God enacted laws on animal sacrifices, not because it's what He wanted, but to gradually move His people to what He does want, and to correct two things:

1) People were sacrificing to false gods, that was the first correction.
2) God doesn't want innocent animals to die at all, but they were just a shadow of what is to come, the ultimate sacrifice, the true spotless 'lamb of God', of course I'm talking about Yeshua. So this was the second correction.

I know this video is long, but if anyone is interested in this topic, I think it's a very good teaching on it:

I would have to check but I believe that there is an idea within some rabbinic thought that agrees with your assessment of animal sacrifice -- that God coopted a human tendency. It is an interesting approach so I'm glad you brought it up. As I'm sure you understand, though, I disagree about the question of a "shadow" of anything to come.

 

[BS Filter]

I’m trying to follow along with this “debate” about “blood sacrifice” and sin to see if there are any useful takeaways here.

Besides disputatious references to “Holy Book” texts and prophets and rabbis and differing Christian interpretations, unmentioned here are secular views recognizing the profound importance of the sacred, of ritual, of sacrifice, and of complicated and contradictory human attitudes toward violence in society.

All this has been manifest throughout human history and studied by historians of comparative religion, anthropologists … even psychoanalysts of the “collective unconscious.” One doesn’t have to go back to Greek mythology to see similar impulses manifesting themselves clearly outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

What I am looking for, and mostly failing to find, is any clear evidence that either believing in Jesus as the “Son of God,” or believing that waiting for a “Messiah” to rebuild a Temple in Jerusalem, will in any way better lead mankind to overcome its sometimes apparent “death wish.”

From the discussion here it is hardly clear to me that either belief helps bring any real “peace of mind” or tolerance and wisdom. Human children as they develop first experience a confused kind of “magical thinking.” Many of us spend our lifetimes in a dull existential anguish or in states of frustration or pain or longing … and never escape socially approved “magical thinking” until we die.

Organized religions can give solace and comfort … but they are also like drugs. Drugs can heighten our perceptions. They can heal the sick. They can even help us “to find God.” But they don’t affect everybody the same…

I strongly recommend not taking drugs if you discover they make you go crazy or lose your reason.

I hear you. What helped me through the confusion was when I realized around the age of 32 that there is evil and there is good, and it's a real battle of spiritual forces in the earth. We see the manifestation physically pop up in life while the unseen battle rages on unseen all around us.

 

[BS Filter]

I would have to check but I believe that there is an idea within some rabbinic thought that agrees with your assessment of animal sacrifice -- that God coopted a human tendency. It is an interesting approach so I'm glad you brought it up. As I'm sure you understand, though, I disagree about the question of a "shadow" of anything to come.

If God coopted a human tendency, then God isn't our Creator.

 

[Meriweather]

I would have to check but I believe that there is an idea within some rabbinic thought that agrees with your assessment of animal sacrifice -- that God coopted a human tendency.

Wasn't at least part of the reason animals are offered is that we relate some human behaviors as fitting only of animals, and so the animal sacrifice represented offering that part of human behavior back to God so that the person's nature might be transformed back into being in alignment with God's good nature and obedient to God instead of following one's animal nature?

Wasn't it also understood that in offering an animal to God, the offering is also in God's hands for the uplifting of the entire animal kingdom for God's holy purposes?

It seems animal sacrifice was highly symbolic?

 

[BS Filter]

Wasn't at least part of the reason animals are offered is that we relate some human behaviors as fitting only of animals, and so the animal sacrifice represented offering that part of human behavior back to God so that the person's nature might be transformed back into being in alignment with God's good nature and obedient to God instead of following one's animal nature?

Wasn't it also understood that in offering an animal to God, the offering is also in God's hands for the uplifting of the entire animal kingdom for God's holy purposes?

It seems animal sacrifice was highly symbolic?

Animal sacrifice was a picture lesson that the result of sin is death, all leading up to the ultimate sacrifice, the Lamb of God. Many people don't really understand what John the Baptist meant when he called Jesus "The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world".

 

[Meriweather]

If God coopted a human tendency, then God isn't our Creator.

Isn't it more likely that God accepts the good will of the human heart? It appears from an early time, sin was associated with death, and that with sin, people could see the death occurring to the goodness in their own soul/spirit or the spirit of another. Symbolically offering one's life (by using the life blood of an animal) to God shows the effort one intends to put into offering his own life to God by working harder to do the will of God.

The Biblical passages Buttercup posted points out what God expects any of sacrifice to accomplish, whether that sacrifice is time in prayer or taking an animal to be sacrificed on the Temple altar.

 

[buttercup]

If God coopted a human tendency, then God isn't our Creator.

You misunderstood. God temporarily permits many things in this fallen world that He doesn't like or want, things that were never His intention. Animal sacrifice originated in pagan cultures, and not to take this thread off topic, but there is evidence that flesh eating has a demonic origin. It has to do with the Nephilim, but I don't want to get too off topic here.

It was the same thing with slavery, which was another practice that took place in many different cultures around the world. (It was a different type of slavery than what we as Americans think of, it was more like indentured servitude, but still it's an example of something that was never God's intent, but in order to change mankind he often works with us from where we're at and goes from there, as I mentioned in post #876)

 

[BS Filter]

Isn't it more likely that God accepts the good will of the human heart? It appears from an early time, sin was associated with death, and that with sin, people could see the death occurring to the goodness in their own soul/spirit or the spirit of another. Symbolically offering one's life (by using the life blood of an animal) to God shows the effort one intends to put into offering his own life to God by working harder to do the will of God.

The Biblical passages Buttercup posted points out what God expects any of sacrifice to accomplish, whether that sacrifice is time in prayer or taking an animal to be sacrificed on the Temple altar.

It's the blood.

 

[Meriweather]

Animal sacrifice was a picture lesson that the result of sin is death, all leading up to the ultimate sacrifice, the Lamb of God. Many people don't really understand what John the Baptist meant when he called Jesus "The Lamb of God".

Jesus entire life was an offering to God. It was The Way he taught. Sacrifice is about realigning our lives so that they reflect obedience to God. That is why Judaism teaches obedience to God's Law. Abiding in God's Law is a sacrifice offered to Him and reflected in Jesus' teaching that we should discern the will of God and follow it.

 

[Meriweather]

It's the blood.

What does the blood symbolize, represent?

In Catholicism it is taught that the Sacraments are the visible sign of the invisible reality. It is the reality--not the sign--we want to grasp.

 

[Batcat]

Christianity is built on two fundamental claims

Immaculate Conception- Is it more realistic to believe that a 15 year old got pregnant through intercourse than that some being impregnated her?

The Resurrection- Is it more realistic to believe that a body was stolen than it ascended into heaven?

Why would it be so difficult for the God that created the entire universe and us to artificially impregnate a virgin?

As far as the body being stolen, Jesus appeared to numerous people several times after his crucifixion.

How many times did Jesus appear to people after his resurrection? - Bible Portal

Acts 1:3 NIVAfter his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. Jesus appeared to his disciples on several occasions over a period of forty days, but how many...

bibleportal.com

 

[BS Filter]

Jesus entire life was an offering to God. It was The Way he taught. Sacrifice is about realigning our lives so that they reflect obedience to God. That is why Judaism teaches obedience to God's Law. Abiding in God's Law is a sacrifice offered to Him and reflected in Jesus' teaching that we should discern the will of God and follow it.

Obeying the law doesn't cleanse from sin. The law's purpose was to show us how far we are from God. Why try to obey all the law when it's impossible? Paul asks that question in Romans. If you can't fulfill the law, what hope do you have?

 

[BS Filter]

What does the blood symbolize, represent?

In Catholicism it is taught that the Sacraments are the visible sign of the invisible reality. It is the reality--not the sign--we want to grasp.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. Nothing else.

 

[rosends]

If God coopted a human tendency, then God isn't our Creator.

that's a non-sequitur. If you need me to explain that to you, just ask.

 

[rosends]

Wasn't at least part of the reason animals are offered is that we relate some human behaviors as fitting only of animals, and so the animal sacrifice represented offering that part of human behavior back to God so that the person's nature might be transformed back into being in alignment with God's good nature and obedient to God instead of following one's animal nature?

Wasn't it also understood that in offering an animal to God, the offering is also in God's hands for the uplifting of the entire animal kingdom for God's holy purposes?

It seems animal sacrifice was highly symbolic?

I don't really understand the question about uplifting the entire animal kingdom. Sacrificing an animal was about sacrificing an animal. There is limited symbolism, most in the act of sacrificing, itself.

 

[BS Filter]

that's a non-sequitur. If you need me to explain that to you, just ask.

I know the definition of "coopted". You can explain your reasoning.

 

[BS Filter]

I don't really understand the question about uplifting the entire animal kingdom. Sacrificing an animal was about sacrificing an animal. There is limited symbolism, most in the act of sacrificing, itself.

John the Baptist said of Jesus.."Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world". That verse speaks of a bloody sacrifice to wash away sin and death forever. Many people see that verse and have a picture of Jesus cuddling a baby lamb, how cute. It was anything but cute. It meant a vile gruesome bloody death. Abraham's son Isaac bound and placed on wood as a sacrifice is God's picture of God's son bound on the wooden cross.

 

[Meriweather]

Obeying the law doesn't cleanse from sin. The law's purpose was to show us how far we are from God. Why try to obey all the law when it's impossible? Paul asks that question in Romans. If you can't fulfill the law, what hope do you have?

Jesus entire ministry was to proclaim, "Sins are forgiven." Romans (Is your reference Chapter 8?) reminds us of the two natures within us. One is what Paul terms the flesh or the part of us that is attached to worldly pleasures. I will point out, keeping God's Law is not a "worldly pleasure" but one of which Paul calls the Spirit of God. It is a rushing, powerful force that turns us to the ways (laws) of God. Paul's whole point is that Adam represents the part of man (flesh) that pursues worldly pleasures and that Jesus represents the part of man that is influenced by the powerful force of God's spirit.

Paul is not saying the Law cleanses. He is saying the Spirit of God, the spirit within Jesus who was fully obedient to God is what cleanses.

It is not difficult to see that the Spirit is fully at work within the Jewish faith, in that its power has the Jews discerning the will of God and following it.

Some Protestant denominations seem to think that since Jesus was filled with the spirit Paul spoke of, Christians are somehow exempt from discerning God's will/law--and following it. Jesus' entire life was about discerning the will of God and following it--even to death. He did not do this so that we don't have to. He did this to show us The Way.