Are religions that preach inequality for women and gays, traitors to their country?

[Blues Man]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

 

[ding]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

 

[Blues Man]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

 

[Blues Man]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

 

[ding]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Why do you think the laws of nature are such that life and intelligence are part of the fabric of existence?

 

[Blues Man]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

 

[Blues Man]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

 

[ding]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

Because I can't possibly conceive anything which could be more complex than the most complex thing that life has evolved. And neither can you. Simple life is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond the most complex non-living matter and energy. Consciousness is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond simple life.

Any other type of mind that existed in the universe is still mind, dummy. You keep trying to pigeonhole this discussion by making it about human mind. Tell me something that is more complex than mind that isn't mind.

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

You wouldn't know that. For all you know it blinked out. Why? Because The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

 

[Blues Man]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

Because I can't possibly conceive anything which could be more complex than the most complex thing that life has evolved. And neither can you. Simple life is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond the most complex non-living matter and energy. Consciousness is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond simple life.

Any other type of mind that existed in the universe is still mind, dummy. You keep trying to pigeonhole this discussion by making it about human mind. Tell me something that is more complex than mind that isn't mind.

And if you cannot conceive of anything more complicated than your own brain you cannot say that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe.

And the human mind is not necessarily the same thing as the mind of another being.

In post #309 you said

" There are no limits to what the human mind can learn. It is by far the most complex thing the universe has ever produced. "

So it was YOU who put the human mind at the pinnacle of all evolution since the inception of the universe not me. Now you are trying to change your terms to include any and all minds that exist or may have existed in the universe.

 

[Blues Man]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

You wouldn't know that. For all you know it blinked out. Why? Because The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter if I know it or not.

humans are insignificant compared to the universe as a whole

 

[ding]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

Because I can't possibly conceive anything which could be more complex than the most complex thing that life has evolved. And neither can you. Simple life is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond the most complex non-living matter and energy. Consciousness is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond simple life.

Any other type of mind that existed in the universe is still mind, dummy. You keep trying to pigeonhole this discussion by making it about human mind. Tell me something that is more complex than mind that isn't mind.

And if you cannot conceive of anything more complicated than your own brain you cannot say that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe.

And the human mind is not necessarily the same thing as the mind of another being.

In post #309 you said

" There are no limits to what the human mind can learn. It is by far the most complex thing the universe has ever produced. "

So it was YOU who put the human mind at the pinnacle of all evolution since the inception of the universe not me. Now you are trying to change your terms to include any and all minds that exist or may have existed in the universe.

Dude, you are quibbling and making an argument of semantics. Try again.

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

You wouldn't know that. For all you know it blinked out. Why? Because The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter if I know it or not.

humans are insignificant compared to the universe as a whole

You are arguing with George Wald, not me.

III. Mind and Matter​

A few years ago it occurred to me -- albeit with some shock to my scientific sensibilities -- that my two problems, that of a life‑breeding universe, and that of consciousness that can neither be identified nor located, might be brought together. That would be with the thought that mind, rather than being a late development in the evolution of organisms, had existed always: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

I have been in experimental science long enough to know that when you have done an experiment that comes out surprisingly well, the thing to do is enjoy it, because the next time you try it, it may not work. So when this idea struck me, I was elated, I enjoyed it immensely. But I was also embarrassed, because this idea violated all my scientific feelings. It took only a few weeks, however, for me to realize that I was in excellent company. That kind of thought is not only deeply embedded in millenia‑old Eastern philosophies; it is stated explicitly or strongly implied in the writings of a number of great and quite recent physicists.

Perhaps it was in part because I am a biologist that the idea at first seemed so strange to me. Biologists tend to be embarrassed by consciousness. As it is an attribute of some living organisms, they feel that they should know about it, and should indeed be in position to straighten out physicists about it, whereas exactly the opposite is true. Physicists live with the problem of consciousness day in and day out. Early in this century it became evident to all physicists that the observer is an intrinsic component of every physical observation. Physical reality is what physicists recognize to be real. One cannot separate the recognition of existence from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.”

Let me give a simple example of the intervention of mind in physical observation: Most readers are probably aware that radiation -- light, indeed all elementary particles -- exhibits simultaneously the properties of waves and of particles, though those properties are altogether different -- indeed, mutually exclusive. This is the prime example of a widespread class of relationships that Neils Bohr brought together in his principle of complementarity, which notes that numbers of phenomena, in and out of physics, exhibit such mutually exclusive sets of properties; one just has to live with them.

Enter consciousness: the physicist, setting up an experiment on radiation, decides beforehand which of those sets of properties he will encounter. If he does a wave experiment, he gets a wave answer; from a particle experiment he gets a particle answer. To this degree, all physical observation is subjective.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .”

Von Weizsacker in 1971 states as “a new and, I feel, intelligible interpretation of quantum theory” what he calls his “Identity Hypothesis: Consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality.”

I like most of all Wolfgang Pauli’s formulation, from 1952: “To us . . . the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

What this kind of thought means essentially is that one has no more basis for considering the existence of matter without its complementary aspect of mind, than for asking that elementary particles not also be waves.

As for this seeming a strange viewpoint for a scientist -- at least until one gets used to it -- as in so many other instances, what is wanted is not so much an acceptable concept as an acceptable rhetoric. If I say, with Eddington, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff,” that has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff? -- virtually the ultimate in mind‑stuff and for that reason deeply mysterious.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

 

[Blues Man]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

Because I can't possibly conceive anything which could be more complex than the most complex thing that life has evolved. And neither can you. Simple life is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond the most complex non-living matter and energy. Consciousness is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond simple life.

Any other type of mind that existed in the universe is still mind, dummy. You keep trying to pigeonhole this discussion by making it about human mind. Tell me something that is more complex than mind that isn't mind.

And if you cannot conceive of anything more complicated than your own brain you cannot say that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe.

And the human mind is not necessarily the same thing as the mind of another being.

In post #309 you said

" There are no limits to what the human mind can learn. It is by far the most complex thing the universe has ever produced. "

So it was YOU who put the human mind at the pinnacle of all evolution since the inception of the universe not me. Now you are trying to change your terms to include any and all minds that exist or may have existed in the universe.

Dude, you are quibbling and making an argument of semantics. Try again.

How am I pigeonholing to include only the human mind when it was your statement that the human mind is the most complex thing the universe ever produced that started this line of discussion.

Once again you are being completely intellectually disingenuous.

So now are you saying that any mind is the most complex thing the universe ever created and not just the human mind? Are all minds equal?

 

[Blues Man]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

You wouldn't know that. For all you know it blinked out. Why? Because The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter if I know it or not.

humans are insignificant compared to the universe as a whole

You are arguing with George Wald, not me.

III. Mind and Matter​

A few years ago it occurred to me -- albeit with some shock to my scientific sensibilities -- that my two problems, that of a life‑breeding universe, and that of consciousness that can neither be identified nor located, might be brought together. That would be with the thought that mind, rather than being a late development in the evolution of organisms, had existed always: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

I have been in experimental science long enough to know that when you have done an experiment that comes out surprisingly well, the thing to do is enjoy it, because the next time you try it, it may not work. So when this idea struck me, I was elated, I enjoyed it immensely. But I was also embarrassed, because this idea violated all my scientific feelings. It took only a few weeks, however, for me to realize that I was in excellent company. That kind of thought is not only deeply embedded in millenia‑old Eastern philosophies; it is stated explicitly or strongly implied in the writings of a number of great and quite recent physicists.

Perhaps it was in part because I am a biologist that the idea at first seemed so strange to me. Biologists tend to be embarrassed by consciousness. As it is an attribute of some living organisms, they feel that they should know about it, and should indeed be in position to straighten out physicists about it, whereas exactly the opposite is true. Physicists live with the problem of consciousness day in and day out. Early in this century it became evident to all physicists that the observer is an intrinsic component of every physical observation. Physical reality is what physicists recognize to be real. One cannot separate the recognition of existence from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.”

Let me give a simple example of the intervention of mind in physical observation: Most readers are probably aware that radiation -- light, indeed all elementary particles -- exhibits simultaneously the properties of waves and of particles, though those properties are altogether different -- indeed, mutually exclusive. This is the prime example of a widespread class of relationships that Neils Bohr brought together in his principle of complementarity, which notes that numbers of phenomena, in and out of physics, exhibit such mutually exclusive sets of properties; one just has to live with them.

Enter consciousness: the physicist, setting up an experiment on radiation, decides beforehand which of those sets of properties he will encounter. If he does a wave experiment, he gets a wave answer; from a particle experiment he gets a particle answer. To this degree, all physical observation is subjective.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .”

Von Weizsacker in 1971 states as “a new and, I feel, intelligible interpretation of quantum theory” what he calls his “Identity Hypothesis: Consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality.”

I like most of all Wolfgang Pauli’s formulation, from 1952: “To us . . . the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

What this kind of thought means essentially is that one has no more basis for considering the existence of matter without its complementary aspect of mind, than for asking that elementary particles not also be waves.

As for this seeming a strange viewpoint for a scientist -- at least until one gets used to it -- as in so many other instances, what is wanted is not so much an acceptable concept as an acceptable rhetoric. If I say, with Eddington, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff,” that has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff? -- virtually the ultimate in mind‑stuff and for that reason deeply mysterious.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

And what I said has not been disproved.

A star does not cease to exist if there is not a mind to perceive it.

 

[ding]

The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. and probably a thousand different types of nerve cells.

And how can you say that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe when we don't understand 95% of the universe?

Apparently I am not alone.

The Most Complicated Object in the Universe - UConn Today

UConn Health Journal: UConn Health pioneers explore new frontiers to better understand one of humankind’s perpetual mysteries.

today.uconn.edu

Foreword - Discovering the Brain - NCBI Bookshelf

The brain is the 'most complex thing in the universe'

Prof Sir Robin Murray has dedicated his 40-year career to psychiatric illnesses, particularly schizophrenia.

www.bbc.com

And they are no more correct that you are.

The fact is our little slice of the Milky Way galaxy is an infinitesimal piece of the entire universe. We have absolutely no clue what sentient beings exists in the rest of the universe.

So it is the height of arrogance to stand on this planet and look at a universe that is 93 billion light years in diameter and proclaim that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in this unimaginably vast universe.

And all physical and biological systems have a limit and the human brain is both physical and biological.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

You're the one who likes logic right?

Where is the logic in assuming your mind is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe when that universe is 93 Billion light years in diameter and 14 billion years old and we as a species have not even ventured beyond our own inner solar system and have only existed as a species for 200000 years ?

and we know that all physical and biological systems have limits but you think the human brain has no limits.

Human intelligence: have we reached the limit of knowledge?

Despite huge advances in science over the past century, our understanding of nature is still far from complete. Not only have scientists failed to find the Holy Grail of physics—unifying the very large (general relativity) with the very small (quantum mechanics) – they still don't know what the...

phys.org

Changing subjects? I will be happy to reply to your questions after you reply to the ones I asked before you asked yours.

Do you have a link that argues against mind not being the most complex thing produced by the evolution of space and time?

Can you at least offer the attributes of what it would take to be considered more complex than the mind?

I gave you a link.

Human intelligence is the product of the brain.

And are you equating the brain with the mind?

If the human brain is the most complex biological organ we know of and we do not fully understand the human brain then we are incapable of imagining the workings of a more complex brain. Just like a dog is incapable of imagining what it's like to be human.

So the link says mind is not the most complex thing produced by the universe. Can you show me the exact quote cause I must have missed it?

Yes, you can equate mind with brain. I don't see a problem with that. Just don't try an say some other mind is the most complex thing in the universe cause that's just fuckery.

So your argument is that there might be some other brain more advanced than the human brain? Same concept. Still the most complex thing produced by the universe is mind.

Can you name something other than an alien's mind that is more complex than mind?

It may be the most complicated thing we are aware of but that does not and will not ever mean it is the most complicated thing that exists or has ever existed in the universe.

You are making the faulty assumption that we know and understand everything that exists and has ever existed in the universe.

And it's not the same thing at all. You say your brain is the most complex thing that ever existed in the universe. That statement rules out any other type of brain as being more complex.

You say there is absolutely no limit to what the human brain can understand yet we know that all physical and biological systems have limits.

And I'll ask again are you equating the mind and the brain or are you referring to the mind as a product of the brain?

Tell me what the attributes would be of something that would be more complex. Consciousness is a product of the universe. What could possibly be more complex or advanced than consciousness.

I equate mind to consciousness capable of abstract thought. A human brain or an alien brain are subsets of mind capable of abstract thought. So the question I am asking is what would the attributes be - of something that is not mind - that would be more complex than mind.

You are playing word games. Consciousness is the last phase of the evolution of space and time. What could possibly be beyond consciousness. Biological life is infinitely more complex than any physical structure of inanimate matter. Consciousness is infinitely than biological life. We know this because of how the universe evolved. Each phase built upon the previous phase.

Consciousness is a product of the brain.

And just because something is made from the materials that exist in the universe does not mean the universe consciously used those materials to make anything with them.

And I never denied that biological life wasn't complex.

My issue is with your declaration that the human brain is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe.

There is absolutely no way you can say that with any measure of certainty since the only biological beings that have brains that we know of are the ones that exist on this single planet in this single solar system out of all the planets and solar systems that ever have existed or exist now in a universe that is 14 billion years old and has a diameter or 93 billion light years.

Other than the conscious beings which exist in the universe, the universe itself does not appear to be conscious. So the universe most likely did not consciously do anything. Life and consciousness were produced through the evolution of space and time which are hardwired into the laws of nature and are a part of the fabric of existence. The universe could have been created such that life and consciousness were never possible to exist.

I am not saying the human mind is the single most complex structure that has ever existed in the universe. I am saying that consciousness is. Consciousness is an artifact of a mind that knows. The only example we have of that are humans but I am talking about the phenomena of consciousness.

so now you're changing your terms.

you have been saying all along that the human mind is the most complex thing in the universe now consciousness is the most complex thing.

It's all the same. The evolution of man's brain introduced a new stage of evolution... the evolution of consciousness.

It's not all the same. The brain is a physical organ of the body. The mind is a product of the brain. Consciousness is simply awareness of ones surroundings and ones own existence.

and not just humans exhibit consciousness.

Are Animals Conscious?

New research suggests that animals, including the bee, might be conscious.

www.psychologytoday.com

.

And none of this supports your assertion that the human brain or mind is the most complex thing to have ever existed in the universe.

Correct, there are different degrees of consciousness. But there was a point in time where there was no consciousness. Consciousness is it's own stage of evolution of space and time. The most advanced and evolved stage of energy and matter.

How many links do you need to see before you accept that the human brain/mind/consciousness is the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter.

Do you have any links which say the human brain/mind/consciousness is NOT the most complex thing ever produced by the evolution of energy and matter? Of course you don't.

Why don't you realize that your assertion the the human mind is the most complex thing to ever exist in the universe is an unsupportable claim?

You do not know if any other type of mind exists or has existed in the entirety of the universe's existence and you do not know what the level of complexity of that mind is or had been.

Because I can't possibly conceive anything which could be more complex than the most complex thing that life has evolved. And neither can you. Simple life is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond the most complex non-living matter and energy. Consciousness is orders of magnitude of complexity beyond simple life.

Any other type of mind that existed in the universe is still mind, dummy. You keep trying to pigeonhole this discussion by making it about human mind. Tell me something that is more complex than mind that isn't mind.

And if you cannot conceive of anything more complicated than your own brain you cannot say that your brain is the pinnacle of evolution in the entire universe.

And the human mind is not necessarily the same thing as the mind of another being.

In post #309 you said

" There are no limits to what the human mind can learn. It is by far the most complex thing the universe has ever produced. "

So it was YOU who put the human mind at the pinnacle of all evolution since the inception of the universe not me. Now you are trying to change your terms to include any and all minds that exist or may have existed in the universe.

Dude, you are quibbling and making an argument of semantics. Try again.

How am I pigeonholing to include only the human mind when it was your statement that the human mind is the most complex thing the universe ever produced that started this line of discussion.

Once again you are being completely intellectually disingenuous.

So now are you saying that any mind is the most complex thing the universe ever created and not just the human mind? Are all minds equal?

You calling me disingenuous is rich. I'm totally cool with you disagreeing with theoretical physicist Michio Kaku who said, “The human brain has 100 billion neurons, each neuron connected to 10,000 other neurons. Sitting on your shoulders is the most complicated object in the known universe.”

 

[ding]

The material world not only is a manifestation of mind, the material world can only become manifest through mind.

no because the material world will be here long after humans are extinct.

The universe is not a mind and even if it was it wouldn't notice us at all

And when that happens there will nothing to make the universe manifest.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .” George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

As near as we can tell the universe is not a mind but it seems the universe may work like a human brain.

How the Universe resembles a human brain

A new study found similarities between the human brain and the cosmic network of galaxies.

bigthink.com

The Quantitative Comparison Between the Neuronal Network and the Cosmic Web

We investigate the similarities between two of the most challenging and complex systems in Nature: the network of neuronal cells in the human brain, and the cosmic network of galaxies. We explore the structural, morphological, network properties and the memory capacity of these two fascinating...

www.frontiersin.org

so then you think that humans are the only beings in this universe than can perceive it?

If every person on this planet was wiped out tomorrow the trees, the rivers, the mountains, the moon, the sun and planets of the solar system and the universe would all still exist even though there are no humans to perceive them

On this planet? Yeah.

Correct but they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

They would still exist without humans to perceive them.

They existed before humans were here, they will still exist after humans are gone.

Again.... they would not be made manifest. It can only be known through mind. The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter. the entire universe would exist even if we were not there to use our limited sensory capabilities to perceive it. Our limited ability to perceive the universe in no way relegates what we we cannot perceive to nonexistence.

You wouldn't know that. For all you know it blinked out. Why? Because The physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness.

It doesn't matter if I know it or not.

humans are insignificant compared to the universe as a whole

You are arguing with George Wald, not me.

III. Mind and Matter​

A few years ago it occurred to me -- albeit with some shock to my scientific sensibilities -- that my two problems, that of a life‑breeding universe, and that of consciousness that can neither be identified nor located, might be brought together. That would be with the thought that mind, rather than being a late development in the evolution of organisms, had existed always: that this is a life‑breeding universe because the constant presence of mind made it so.

I have been in experimental science long enough to know that when you have done an experiment that comes out surprisingly well, the thing to do is enjoy it, because the next time you try it, it may not work. So when this idea struck me, I was elated, I enjoyed it immensely. But I was also embarrassed, because this idea violated all my scientific feelings. It took only a few weeks, however, for me to realize that I was in excellent company. That kind of thought is not only deeply embedded in millenia‑old Eastern philosophies; it is stated explicitly or strongly implied in the writings of a number of great and quite recent physicists.

Perhaps it was in part because I am a biologist that the idea at first seemed so strange to me. Biologists tend to be embarrassed by consciousness. As it is an attribute of some living organisms, they feel that they should know about it, and should indeed be in position to straighten out physicists about it, whereas exactly the opposite is true. Physicists live with the problem of consciousness day in and day out. Early in this century it became evident to all physicists that the observer is an intrinsic component of every physical observation. Physical reality is what physicists recognize to be real. One cannot separate the recognition of existence from existence. As Erwin Schrödinger put it: “The world is a construct of our sensations, perceptions, memories. It is convenient to regard it as existing objectively on its own. But it certainly does not become manifest by its mere existence.”

Let me give a simple example of the intervention of mind in physical observation: Most readers are probably aware that radiation -- light, indeed all elementary particles -- exhibits simultaneously the properties of waves and of particles, though those properties are altogether different -- indeed, mutually exclusive. This is the prime example of a widespread class of relationships that Neils Bohr brought together in his principle of complementarity, which notes that numbers of phenomena, in and out of physics, exhibit such mutually exclusive sets of properties; one just has to live with them.

Enter consciousness: the physicist, setting up an experiment on radiation, decides beforehand which of those sets of properties he will encounter. If he does a wave experiment, he gets a wave answer; from a particle experiment he gets a particle answer. To this degree, all physical observation is subjective.

It is primarily physicists who in recent times have expressed most clearly and forthrightly this pervasive relationship between mind and matter, and indeed at times the primacy of mind. Arthur Eddington in 1928 wrote, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff ... The mind‑stuff is not spread in space and time.... Recognizing that the physical world is entirely abstract and without ‘actuality’ apart from its linkage to consciousness, we restore consciousness to the fundamental position . . .”

Von Weizsacker in 1971 states as “a new and, I feel, intelligible interpretation of quantum theory” what he calls his “Identity Hypothesis: Consciousness and matter are different aspects of the same reality.”

I like most of all Wolfgang Pauli’s formulation, from 1952: “To us . . . the only acceptable point of view appears to be the one that recognizes both sides of reality -- the quantitative and the qualitative, the physical and the psychical -- as compatible with each other, and can embrace them simultaneously . . . It would be most satisfactory of all if physis and psyche (i.e., matter and mind) could be seen as complementary aspects of the same reality.”

What this kind of thought means essentially is that one has no more basis for considering the existence of matter without its complementary aspect of mind, than for asking that elementary particles not also be waves.

As for this seeming a strange viewpoint for a scientist -- at least until one gets used to it -- as in so many other instances, what is wanted is not so much an acceptable concept as an acceptable rhetoric. If I say, with Eddington, “the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff,” that has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff? -- virtually the ultimate in mind‑stuff and for that reason deeply mysterious.

George Wald: Life and Mind in the Universe

And what I said has not been disproved.

A star does not cease to exist if there is not a mind to perceive it.

I couldn't be happier for you to disagree with George Wald.