Ark of the Covenant

[fncceo]

those who believe scripture is metaphor

Reform rabbis are so phony even I can make them look stupid.

There are Orthodox scholars who write scientific critiques of scripture. Accepting that man had a hand in the creation of Halacha doesn't make it any less valid. Any more than secular law is invalid because it comes from man.

Reformed rabbis reject Halachic observance which negates any parts of scripture designed to give us a roadmap to a more spiritual life. Reformed Judaism rejects the spiritual for the secular. Reformed Judaism is a secular social peer group masquerading and traditional Judaism.

Scientific analysis of scripture doesn't reject halachis observance, it merely says that man had a hand in its creation.

 

[meaner gene]

No. Correctly said, one party believes the torah is the infallible word of god, and one doesn't. Both opinions cannot be equally valid. Both claims cannot be true.

Actually both positions are on very shaky ground. For the transcribed words of God to be infallible would require the person who transcribed them to be infallible, and the very nature of man, vs the nature of God makes man infallible.

So there is always a weak link in the chain.

 

[yidnar]

probably several ....like a lot of nobles.

 

[fncceo]

The result may be equally valid, but not the text upon which it's based.

The result is the only thing that can be tested. The origin or the scriptures cannot.

 

[Indeependent]

those who believe scripture is metaphor

Reform rabbis are so phony even I can make them look stupid.

There are Orthodox scholars who write scientific critiques of scripture. Accepting that man had a hand in the creation of Halacha doesn't make it any less valid. Any more than secular law is invalid because it comes from man.

Reformed rabbis reject Halachic observance which negates any parts of scripture designed to give us a roadmap to a more spiritual live. Reformed Judaism rejects the spiritual for the secular.

Scientific analysis of scripture doesn't reject halachi observance, it merely says that man had a hand in its creation.

There are Orthodox scholars who write scientific critiques of scripture.

Any rabbi who studies Talmud is qualified to do so since that study contains every science known to man.
Critiques do not equal disagreement, they indicate opinions such as the Big Bang Theory mentioned in the Talmud.

 

[Indeependent]

The result may be equally valid, but not the text upon which it's based.

The result is the only thing that can be tested. The origin or the scriptures cannot.

The origin or the scriptures cannot.

Why not?

 

[Indeependent]

No. Correctly said, one party believes the torah is the infallible word of god, and one doesn't. Both opinions cannot be equally valid. Both claims cannot be true.

Actually both positions are on very shaky ground. For the transcribed words of God to be infallible would require the person who transcribed them to be infallible, and the very nature of man, vs the nature of God makes man infallible.

So there is always a weak link in the chain.

For the transcribed words of God to be infallible would require the person who transcribed them to be infallible,

God is dictating what Moshe is saying and you think God would allow Moshe to make a mistake?
Any Torah scroll that contains a mistake has to have the mistake corrected and until it is cannot be used for services.

 

[meaner gene]

Every other religion has every member shitting gold.

Eve, Caine, Lots wife. Other religions have many a person who screwed the pooch, and was recorded as having done so.

But all great stories have to have a battle between or examples of good and evil.

 

[Indeependent]

Every other religion has every member shitting gold.

Eve, Caine, Lots wife. Other religions have many a person who screwed the pooch, and was recorded as having done so.

But all great stories have to have a battle between or examples of good and evil.

Which religions?
In the Koran and New Testament, everybody is perfect.

 

[fncceo]

The origin or the scriptures cannot.

Why not?

Well, I'm going to use the argument of Oolon Culluphid.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says G-d, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "Our own existence is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says G-d, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

In other words, of irrefutable proof of G-d's existence existed, then free-will, which is also part of the ineffable plan would cease to exist and the whole plan comes tumbling down.

 

[BreezeWood]

... and the very nature of man, vs the nature of God makes man infallible.

.
... purity is the equator for the freed spirit and immortality. when accomplished.

 

[Indeependent]

The origin or the scriptures cannot.

Why not?

Well, I'm going to use the argument of Oolon Culluphid.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says G-d, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "Our own existence is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says G-d, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

In other words, of irrefutable proof of G-d's existence existed, then free-will, which is also part of the ineffable plan would cease to exist and the whole plan comes tumbling down.

You cannot prove God exists because prophecy is like a drug trip.
Even if you experience prophecy, you are still human and can go bad.
The Prophets have no shortage of Godly people who caved into their non-Godly desires.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And they did it on cuneiform tablets, weighing hundreds of pounds each, when they wanted to send official messages over distance. But somehow the Moses flock that couldn't find their way out of a relatively postage stamp-sized piece of the desert for 40 years managed to transport hundreds of them hundreds of miles.

Good grief, how can rational adults believe this nonsense

List of Amarna letters by size - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So you would argue that the ten commandments and the torah existed in this esoteric script of mixed language used only by the high ranking officials? And that Moses' s flock was literate in it, much less Moses himself? Seems a bit of a stretch.

And these little tablets don't have many words. And more words were needed in this old language than the later languages. You would be talking thousands of these little fellas, minimum. In the desert. After 40 years. For the first copy. And then translated correctly into a later language, yet no evidence of it existing before that. So much work to do to even start to climb up that mountain, evidence-wise.

 

[Indeependent]

The origin or the scriptures cannot.

Why not?

Well, I'm going to use the argument of Oolon Culluphid.

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says G-d, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "Our own existence is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says G-d, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanished in a puff of logic."

In other words, of irrefutable proof of G-d's existence existed, then free-will, which is also part of the ineffable plan would cease to exist and the whole plan comes tumbling down.

I apologize, there is no word for faith in Hebrew.
There are 2 states of being a believer...
Eh-moo-nah (to believe in God's ablility)...I know you can do it but you may not do it.
Bee-tah-chone (to know God will do it)...I know you will do it.

 

[Indeependent]

And they did it on cuneiform tablets, weighing hundreds of pounds each, when they wanted to send official messages over distance. But somehow the Moses flock that couldn't find their way out of a relatively postage stamp-sized piece of the desert for 40 years managed to transport hundreds of them hundreds of miles.

Good grief, how can rational adults believe this nonsense

List of Amarna letters by size - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So you would argue that the ten commandments and the torah existed in this esoteric script of mixed language used only by the high ranking officials? And that Moses' s flock was literate in it, much less Moses himself? Seems a bit of a stretch.

And these little tablets don't have many words. And more words were needed in this old language than the later languages. You would be talking thousands of these little fellas, minimum. In the desert. After 40 years. For the first copy. And then translated correctly into a later language, yet no evidence of it existing before that. So much work to do to even start to climb up that mountain, evidence-wise.

Most people of antiquity spoke many languages in order for business contracts to be honored.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The ultimate truth isn't the point. A devout Buddhist and a devout Muslim might have very different truths, but each uses their truth as a spiritual path to how they live their lives. As a guide to how to live a more spiritual life, the Buddhist's truth and the Muslim's truth are equally valid.

Then also atheists' truth. Equally valid. Right?

 

[meaner gene]

God is dictating what Moshe is saying and you think God would allow Moshe to make a mistake?
Any Torah scroll that contains a mistake has to have the mistake corrected and until it is cannot be used for services.

One of the tenants of most religions is that God gives people free will, and allows them to be fallible, the very nature of his actions shows that he guides people, but does not control them.

I don't see God being so anal, that he makes sure each of his words is properly transcribed, instead of just an accurate rendition of the meaning. Which if so, makes analysis of the nuance of the text meaningless.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Actually both positions are on very shaky ground

I think the idea of OT scripture often being a form of metaphor is on solid ground. Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah, etc. The goal seems to be to instill fear of God, and to serve him even to the point of committing immoral acts. We don't have to guess what happens when the OT followers follow that immoral path as literal, infallible Word of God and when they don't. We can look at modern Muslims and modern Jews to see the difference.

 

[Indeependent]

God is dictating what Moshe is saying and you think God would allow Moshe to make a mistake?
Any Torah scroll that contains a mistake has to have the mistake corrected and until it is cannot be used for services.

One of the tenants of most religions is that God gives people free will, and allows them to be fallible, the very nature of his actions shows that he guides people, but does not control them.

I don't see God being so anal, that he makes sure each of his words is properly transcribed, instead of just an accurate rendition of the meaning. Which if so, makes analysis of the nuance of the text meaningless.

he makes sure each of his words is properly transcribed

Try building a skyscraper without a plan.
As I have previously shown FFI, the overwhelming majority of rabbis in the last 1,000 years were respected scientists, due to studying Talmud, and they would heartily disagree with you.

 

[fncceo]

Then also atheists' truth. Equally valid. Right?

Absolutely. If that is the truth by which they choose to live their life.