Zone1 Atheism Has No Basis for the Idea of Good or Evil, Just or Unjust

[ding]

It's simply another God of the gaps argument. As there have been thousands.

God's have been inserted in the unexplained since they were invented. I'm guessing you don't believe in Zeus, Thor, Krishna, Budha, etc.etc.

Even more, the overwhelming majority of the times they tried, the assertion has been proven false. Poseidon doesn't cause storms. Misfortune is not the fault of Loki. Even,even, more than that even within Christianity the understanding of the natural world has caused the Bible to be reinterpreted less and less literally. It's the same for all religions.

But I'm sure you inserting God as the reason for the Big Bang is completely different.

Is it just another God of the gaps argument? Or is it the logical conclusion of a universe which was intentionally created?

 

[forkup]

God is truth, God is reality is the conclusion of my reasoning not the reasoning. So how can you say my reasoning is circular when you don't know what my reasoning is?

Because truth and reality have a particular meaning in language. If you say God is reality. You are saying something that's basically meaningless. A reality you can test. It's falsifiable. God you can't test or falsify. In order to say something is true, you need to be able to offer evidence. Inserting your opinion in the place of truth is fallacious.

This makes your argument circular.

 

[forkup]

I already addressed this in post #296. You don't need to know what existed before the universe to know the universe began or even the cause because that's the conclusion not the assertion. Tons of scientific evidence for the universe beginning. No evidence whatsoever for the universe not beginning. The evidence shows the universe has not existed forever.

Sure. Where do you place God? Why not a natural reason?

It works for gravity, or any of the thousands of testable, verifiable, and predictive laws of nature that science has discovered. Any number of which people have suggested the God explanation and have been proven wrong.

What makes this different?

 

[forkup]

Is it just another God of the gaps argument? Or is it the logical conclusion of a universe which was intentionally created?

Intentionally created? This is begging the question. Prove that there was anything intentional about it before you assert God. That's the point.

As I see it "God" is batting 0 in 1000000 in terms of having an explanatory value. What's your actual reasoning for assuming different in this case?

 

[alang1216]

It's not an assumption. It's a premise. And I agree it's hard for material beings to comprehend anything beyond the material world, but it's not impossible. Everything is information. If I say the stuff of the world is mind‑stuff, that has a metaphysical ring. But if I say that ultimate reality is expressed in the solutions of the equations of quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and quantum field theory -- that sounds like good, modern physics. Yet what are those equations, indeed what is mathematics, but mind‑stuff?

Your "mind stuff" is a description of the physical world, it does not effect it in any way.

The linkage between mind and matter isn't a new concept. It is primarily physicists who have expressed the relationship between mind and matter, and the primacy of mind. Were Arthur Eddington, Von Weizsacker, Wolfgang Pauli and George Wald being illogical too?

If they use your "mind stuff" to describe the physical world, no. If they claim your "mind stuff" can influence the physical world, then yes.

 

[alang1216]

I'm talking about existence itself. Go beyond this universe. Do you think that existence just pops into being uncaused? Because I find that to be illogical. I don't know of anything which is uncaused. So you must believe that there is an infinite sequence of causes which I I find to be illogical. So I am left with the only logical answer possible - which no matter how improbable it seems to be is the only logical possibility - that there must be an uncaused first cause that must be eternal (no beginning or ending) and is unchanging.

Since I don't know what existed before the Big Bang I'll have to say, I just don't know.

So now do you understand me? Is there anything else you don't understand about me?

Since you don't know of anything which is uncaused I guess you don't believe in the God of the Bible. Is that right?

 

[buttercup]

Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity. According to the strict rules of validity, an argument is valid if the premises and conclusion are related to each other in the right way so that if the premises were true, then the conclusion would have to be true as well.

The premise is that the universe was created intentionally. The evidence for this premise is the creation of the universe and the evolution of space and time. The conclusion is God exists. So you can't dismiss the premise just because you don't know how the universe began. Why? Because you know the universe did begin. You know the universe evolved until beings that know and create arose. This is evidence. You can't dismiss the evidence by dismissing the conclusion which is how the universe began.

Come on, ding! Don't you know that nothing creating everything is so much more logical?

I gotta hand it to atheists...they have far more faith than I could ever dream of having. Blues Man, I admire your faith!

 

[Donald H]

I already addressed this in post #296. You don't need to know what existed before the universe to know the universe began or even the cause because that's the conclusion not the assertion. Tons of scientific evidence for the universe beginning. No evidence whatsoever for the universe not beginning. The evidence shows the universe has not existed forever.

No, none of that is true!

The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time

String theory suggests that the BIG BANG was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[buttercup]

Well what caused God, then? As you say, logically speaking.

It appears that you stopped reading his post after the part you quoted, because later in that post he made his main point, that logically, the First Cause must be eternal. Which makes perfect sense, because if the First Cause had a cause, then by definition it wouldn't be the first cause.

So if you don't mind me chiming in here, nothing caused God. God is the uncaused First Cause. The Bible clearly states that God is eternal. The first cause also must be personal, but I'll save that for another time and thread, since we've already gotten off topic, lol.

 

[Donald H]

Come on, ding! Don't you know that nothing creating everything is so much more logical?

I gotta hand it to atheists...they have far more faith than I could ever dream of having. Blues Man, I admire your faith!

Atheists aren't all alike but this atheist has faith in science.

The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time

String theory suggests that the BIG BANG was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state

www.scientificamerican.com

And more! I have faith that science won't attempt to cover up a possibility that they were wrong. Science has no incentive to hide the latest and the best evidence.

Christianity does have that incentive, but when the church is forced to move and change it's beliefs, it's no less than a complete selloff of the Genesis myths.

 

[buttercup]

I have faith that science won't attempt to cover up a possibility that they were wrong. Science has no incentive to hide the latest and the best evidence.

I beg to differ. Individual scientists have admitted when they're wrong. But modern science as a whole is agenda-driven, and I completely disagree that they would not attempt to cover up the possibility that they're wrong. They have already, in numerous areas.

 

[TNHarley]

Burning "witches"
Stoning women to death
Killing babies because their father "sinned"
Forcing a 11 year old rape victim to carry their baby
Controlling the masses with fear, and if you refuse to live in fear, they will find some verse in their unholy book to justify killing you
Rituals of eating human flesh (pretending)
Taking your children to the elders so they can be murdered for not listening.
Etc
Yeah, thank god we have religion. Without it, we would be so screwed.

 

[Donald H]

I beg to differ. Individual scientists have admitted when they're wrong. But modern science as a whole is agenda-driven, and I completely disagree that they would not attempt to cover up the possibility that they're wrong. They have already, in numerous areas.

And i suspect that you differ because of your Christian agenda.
In any case, our Ding is stubbornly refusing to accept the views of modern science. That too is agenda driven.

 

[Natural Citizen]

It appears that you stopped reading his post after the part you quoted, because later in that post he made his main point, that logically, the First Cause must be eternal. Which makes perfect sense, because if the First Cause had a cause, then by definition it wouldn't be the first cause.

So if you don't mind me chiming in here, nothing caused God. God is the uncaused First Cause. The Bible clearly states that God is eternal. The first cause also must be personal, but I'll save that for another time and thread, since we've already gotten off topic, lol.

Reads more like logic for thee but not for me...

 

[ding]

No, none of that is true!

The Myth Of The Beginning Of Time

String theory suggests that the BIG BANG was not the origin of the universe but simply the outcome of a preexisting state

www.scientificamerican.com

No. It is all true. Mathematical gimmicks to eliminate the mathematical singularity - which is what they are talking about - doesn't negate the universe did begin.

 

[ding]

Burning "witches"
Stoning women to death
Killing babies because their father "sinned"
Forcing a 11 year old rape victim to carry their baby
Controlling the masses with fear, and if you refuse to live in fear, they will find some verse in their unholy book to justify killing you
Rituals of eating human flesh (pretending)
Taking your children to the elders so they can be murdered for not listening.
Etc
Yeah, thank god we have religion. Without it, we would be so screwed.

Should I be using your life as a yardstick to determine how much better my life would be without religion or God?

 

[ding]

And i suspect that you differ because of your Christian agenda.
In any case, our Ding is stubbornly refusing to accept the views of modern science. That too is agenda driven.

You mean the ones that don't actually address the data?

 

[ding]

Come on, ding! Don't you know that nothing creating everything is so much more logical?

I gotta hand it to atheists...they have far more faith than I could ever dream of having. Blues Man, I admire your faith!

They don't believe they have faith or religion. And yet they demonstrate both on a daily basis.

 

[ding]

The universe popping into existence freaks out atheists... as well it should.

 

[alang1216]

Come on, ding! Don't you know that nothing creating everything is so much more logical?

Of course we don't know if our universe as actually created or if it already existed, just in a different state. Guesses and assumptions are not logical.