"atlas shrugged" will change the face of american politics

[JakeStarkey]

You weirdo wacks so far out on the right are so predictable.

 

[washamericom]

And if unproductive people aren't subsidized by either the willing or the forced, they quickly starve and die. Somewhere before death, they cease being happy and either become unhappy productive people, or get the point that life involves work and come to terms with their lives and become happy productive people. Or die. that is still an option for those who refuse productivity and don't have a host in which to be a parasite on.

The most ungrateful person is a happy unproductive person. Their comfort is not theirs, and they know it can be taken from them once people figure out the scam. At least they admit that if they're intellectually honest. Most aren't.

So, your premise is flawed.

No, it's not flawed at all. If pursuing one's happiness is the highest moral standard a person should live by, then anything becomes justified, including being a fat, lazy slob who freeloads, even outright steals from others, who abuses others in less powerful positions of life. Accepting this is necessary to hold to Rand's views. This then puts the less powerful in a place where they are forced to "pursue" their happiness only inasmuch as they are avoiding the wrath of the thief, who is of course the most moral a person can be. De facto, the less powerful person is working first for his master's happiness, and his own happiness is secondary. Which makes him less moral. BUT, because his efforts are productive, his deeds are the most noble that any can be. Herein lies the contradiction. How can one person's deeds be the most noble any deed can be, if he is of lesser moral quality than the the most moral man? And how can the most moral man's deeds be the least noble?

And that's where everyone goes wrong. They think that since Rand advocated basically selfishness that every and all means for achieving it were justified, including stealing from others. Unfortunately that is a contradiction. Because Rand also held that no one else has the right to what someone else has worked for.

seriously ?? by fiat ? and i think that truthers are more from the left too. it's logical since they evolved from hating bush (the president).

 

[gekaap]

sallow already used this story, if you care to backtrack

Alright, you got me. I been lyin about it. I never heard of the book before today. I just wanted to be part of the crowd so I been fakin like I know what I'm talkin about, like that kid in The Sandlot who didn't know who the Great Bambino was. I'm a horrible person. I deserve to be in a plane crash over the Colorado mountains. Maybe I'll get lucky and land on top of a hologram that's hiding a valley and survive the crash. I'll rent a car from the banker for a quarter, crash in Galt's house and convince him to hire me to help slug clean house during the day, and smoke cigarettes with dollar signs on them.

You know, I got this uncle who works as a cook in a diner. Funny thing, him doing that. He used to be a great philosopher and work in a big fancy university. Said something once about knowing a guy who made this amazing motor that was super efficient. It would have changed the world, my uncle said, but they guy left it on the floor in some old factory, and when the factory shut down the local town fell to pieces.

BTW, wasn't it you who posted the clip of the trailer in another thread before this one? You and I had a brief exchange there about the upcoming movie.

 

[NYcarbineer]

REALLY? Unlike you I am not the one that calls America a democracy, deomcratic republic, or a social democracy. All are controlled by the majority, they are mob rule. You will only see me address America as a Constitutional Republic. Because the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

I wrote, "Capitalism is economics, bigreb, while social democracy is a reform movement. Neither conflicts with the constitutional Republic. Let's review for you: (1) the Constitution is the ultimate law of the land; (2) a Republic is governed by republican representation, the election of representatives by the people. You with me on this?"

Stay with what I wrote, bud, and tell me how that conflicts with a constitutional republic?

Democracy majority rule mob rule
conflicts with
Constitutional Republic, Rule by law.
BUB

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy,

all those people just aren't as smart as you??

lol

 

[Big Fitz]

And that's where everyone goes wrong. They think that since Rand advocated basically selfishness that every and all means for achieving it were justified, including stealing from others. Unfortunately that is a contradiction. Because Rand also held that no one else has the right to what someone else has worked for.

So it's a contradiction for me to follow Rand's ideas out all the way to the point where they contradict themselves, but Rand's ideas themselves do not constitute any contradiction?

Yeah, redacto in absurdum fail. In the process of 'going all the way out', someone jingled their keys and you forgot what you were doing and defaulted back to your looter talking points and mixed that in giving us garbage.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Ok, I 've read about Ayn Rand for 5 minutes, now I'm an expert. Let's discuss the mystery of her appeal to Conservatives, starting with this:

My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

—Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Anyone?

i have found that in life; sometimes it will take more than five minutes to absorb the essece of a philosophy or religion, or really, any complex theory. do you feel left out because you never read it and everyone is talking about it? or have you copped an undisciplined uninformed attitude. if you feel left out than good, that was th essence of my original post. if you don't read it because conservatives like it, isn't that the same as refusing to watch fox news.? you've got to love yourself before you can love another.

The Argument from Intimidation is a confession of intellectual impotence.
(Ayn Rand)

Plus, I can't BE intimidated, so you lost that one twice.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I can't wait until this movie comes out, France would not allow it to be written in the French language, they certainly felt threatened by it, but they should as it shows the evils of socialism. I think Obama needs to read it.

I hope that all of you conservatives and independents take your voting age children to see this movie. It will change them from mush heads that believe anything they hear and see and turn them into critical thinkers of government policy and the fallacies that are being promoted today by a very liberal bunch of mush heads who happen to be in the executive office.

I hear it was a businessman that invested 10 million dollars to make this movie. Please pass this information on to all of your contacts and urge them to see it. It makes you think and think critically.

france trying to censor the book is icing on the objective cake, i hate the french. (sarkosy has been better recently though).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)

i'm hoping that the movie (which makes objectivism more consumable for the public) will inspire that elusive american dream again, when hard work and individual achievement drive the economy to where it should be. this is instead of "we need to spread the wealth around" and "we can't have sucessful corporations producing too much (more than their "fair share" a term (theme) you will be hearing alot in the upcoming election)

this applies accurately to cap and trade specifically, where (according to wikkepedia) "a government authority" will determine how much a corporation can consume and emit.

Emissions trading - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The irony of the above is, Americans work harder and longer now than they did 50 years ago.

The working/middle class 2 earner household (to make ends meet) is so commonplace nowadays that young people don't even think twice about it as one of the realities of life; 50 years ago, the household supported by 1 earner was the norm.

 

[Big Fitz]

Cluelessness is not a valid defense, but it does make you look funny.

The irony of the above is, Americans work harder and longer now than they did 50 years ago.

This couldn't have anything to do with the devaluation of the dollar over the last 50 years now, could it? Oil for instance is almost identically priced today versus gold as it was 100 years ago.

The working/middle class 2 earner household (to make ends meet) is so commonplace nowadays that young people don't even think twice about it as one of the realities of life; 50 years ago, the household supported by 1 earner was the norm.

Also, how much of this has to do with the following aspects:

-Women's liberation vilifying being a homemaker pushing women into the workplace diluting the labor market.
-The "Keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome of materialism.
-International labor market competition brought about by bad national trade policy driving wages down
-Open borders importing low skill workers who drive down wages, and foreign students who can do the technical jobs Americans can't thanks to dumbed down schools.

Nope.. these couldn't have had ANY impact on the cost of living for the average family...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I wrote, "Capitalism is economics, bigreb, while social democracy is a reform movement. Neither conflicts with the constitutional Republic. Let's review for you: (1) the Constitution is the ultimate law of the land; (2) a Republic is governed by republican representation, the election of representatives by the people. You with me on this?"

Stay with what I wrote, bud, and tell me how that conflicts with a constitutional republic?

Democracy majority rule mob rule
conflicts with
Constitutional Republic, Rule by law.
BUB

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy,

all those people just aren't as smart as you??

lol

Are we
A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.


James Madison
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind
(Federalist No. 63).

Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

The Greatest Benjamin Franklin Quotes

 

[NYcarbineer]

Cluelessness is not a valid defense, but it does make you look funny.

The irony of the above is, Americans work harder and longer now than they did 50 years ago.

This couldn't have anything to do with the devaluation of the dollar over the last 50 years now, could it? Oil for instance is almost identically priced today versus gold as it was 100 years ago.

The working/middle class 2 earner household (to make ends meet) is so commonplace nowadays that young people don't even think twice about it as one of the realities of life; 50 years ago, the household supported by 1 earner was the norm.

Also, how much of this has to do with the following aspects:

-Women's liberation vilifying being a homemaker pushing women into the workplace diluting the labor market.
-The "Keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome of materialism.
-International labor market competition brought about by bad national trade policy driving wages down
-Open borders importing low skill workers who drive down wages, and foreign students who can do the technical jobs Americans can't thanks to dumbed down schools.

Nope.. these couldn't have had ANY impact on the cost of living for the average family...

In other words, I'm right on the fact I stated, which was my only point.

You REALLY think most working mothers are doing it because they want to please some mythical concept of women's liberation? jeezus.

 

[Bern80]

And that's where everyone goes wrong. They think that since Rand advocated basically selfishness that every and all means for achieving it were justified, including stealing from others. Unfortunately that is a contradiction. Because Rand also held that no one else has the right to what someone else has worked for.

So it's a contradiction for me to follow Rand's ideas out all the way to the point where they contradict themselves, but Rand's ideas themselves do not constitute any contradiction?

No her ideas don't contradict themselves. As with every Rand basher her you simply believe her ideals constitute something that simply isn't so.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Democracy majority rule mob rule
conflicts with
Constitutional Republic, Rule by law.
BUB

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy,

all those people just aren't as smart as you??

lol

Are we
A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.


James Madison
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind
(Federalist No. 63).

Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

The Greatest Benjamin Franklin Quotes

That's an impressive volley of gibberish but it didn't answer my question.

jeffersonian democracy vs jacksonian democracy - Google Search

 

[Big Fitz]

Cluelessness is not a valid defense, but it does make you look funny.

The irony of the above is, Americans work harder and longer now than they did 50 years ago.

This couldn't have anything to do with the devaluation of the dollar over the last 50 years now, could it? Oil for instance is almost identically priced today versus gold as it was 100 years ago.

The working/middle class 2 earner household (to make ends meet) is so commonplace nowadays that young people don't even think twice about it as one of the realities of life; 50 years ago, the household supported by 1 earner was the norm.

Also, how much of this has to do with the following aspects:

-Women's liberation vilifying being a homemaker pushing women into the workplace diluting the labor market.
-The "Keeping up with the Joneses" syndrome of materialism.
-International labor market competition brought about by bad national trade policy driving wages down
-Open borders importing low skill workers who drive down wages, and foreign students who can do the technical jobs Americans can't thanks to dumbed down schools.

Nope.. these couldn't have had ANY impact on the cost of living for the average family...

In other words, I'm right on the fact I stated, which was my only point.

You REALLY think most working mothers are doing it because they want to please some mythical concept of women's liberation? jeezus.

You are right only in the outcome, not the cause.

And yes, many to most working mothers are doing it because they feel pressured to do so. At least the ones I have met and hired in the past who aren't on welfare getting their babby munny from Uncle Sugar.

Had an image flash through my mind of the movie Thunderheart where Jimmy Fast Elk escapes from two federal agents.

"We have an agent down."
"Has the agent been shot?"
"No, the agent's been BIT by a fucking BADGER!"

There's no discussion that there's bleeding, it's just admitting that we have been wounded by doing something dumb economically and socially.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy,

all those people just aren't as smart as you??

lol

Are we
A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.


James Madison
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind
(Federalist No. 63).

Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

The Greatest Benjamin Franklin Quotes

That's an impressive volley of gibberish but it didn't answer my question.

jeffersonian democracy vs jacksonian democracy - Google Search

Are we

A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Democracy majority rule mob rule conflicts with Constitutional Republic, Rule by law. BUB

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy, all those people just aren't as smart as you?? lol

Are we A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.


James Madison
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind
(Federalist No. 63).

Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

The Greatest Benjamin Franklin Quotes

"A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens." So you cut out my corrections of your wrongheadedness, then you repost basically what I counseled you on, above, and you pretend it its yours?

You reposted my comments from #147 http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...face-of-american-politics-10.html#post3416276 Edited and pretended they are yours, bigrebnc. Well, at least you are finally getting the point correctly (republicanism is the democratic election of our representatives to govern, whether directly such as for school boards, city commissions, state legislatures, the national legislature; and indirectly, such as voting for the Electoral College).

Well, you have proven to all of us without any doubt: (1) you have no integrity, (2) you are stupid, and (3) you are arrogant in that you think you can get away with it.

Amazing.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

So all the references over the years, by historians, to such things as Jeffersonian democracy, Jacksonian democracy, all those people just aren't as smart as you?? lol

Are we A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

B. democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums.


James Madison
There are particular moments in public affairs when the people, stimulated by some irregular passion, or some illicit advantage, or misled by the artful misrepresentations of interested men, may call for measures which they themselves will afterwards be most ready to lament and condemn. In these critical moments, how salutary will be the interference of some temperate and respectable body of citizens, in order to check the misguided career and to suspend the blow meditated by the people against themselves, until reason, justice and truth can regain their authority over the public mind
(Federalist No. 63).

Benjamin Franklin

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

The Greatest Benjamin Franklin Quotes

"A. Constitutional Republic is a state where the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens." So you cut out my corrections of your wrongheadedness, then you repost basically what I counseled you on, above, and you pretend it its yours?

You reposted my comments from #147 on page 4 and pretended they are yours, bigrebnc. Well, at least you are finally getting the point correctly (republicanism is the democratic election of our representatives to govern, whether directly such as for school boards, city commissions, state legislatures, the national legislature; and indirectly, such as voting for the Electoral College).

Well, you have proven to all of us without any doubt: (1) you have no integrity, (2) you are stupid, and (3) you are arrogant in that you think you can get away with it.

Amazing.

You reposted my comments from #147 on page 4 and pretended they are yours, bigrebnc.

You are full of shit, If I repost something of your's it's because I quoted your post to reply to it. Don't ever think I need your help Son.

Well, at least you are finally getting the point correctly (republicanism is the democratic election of our representatives to govern, whether directly such as for school boards, city commissions, state legislatures, the national legislature; and indirectly, such as voting for the Electoral College).

Again your full of sit. I have never read one post that you have made that said America is aConstitutional republic. Everything I have you post is " America is a social Republic America is a democratic republic" So you are full of shit son.

Captilism has brought more people up and out of poverty than any government program ever did. That's a proven fact, but then again Liberals ignore the facts. Clinton's end of welfare as we know it, propelled people out of the projects and into the middle class, you ask why? Because you either sink or you swim.

Capitalism and social democracy have been responsible for lifting the masses in western society from poverty. Stay complete, please.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Everyone can read post 147 then trace what you have done in posts since then. You took my material almost word for word. You finally got it right. However, either you stole it or you are stupid.

Or you are both. Yes, I vote for that: you are both.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Everyone can read post 147 then trace what you have done in posts since then. You took my material almost word for word. You finally got it right. However, either you stole it or you are stupid.

Or you are both. Yes, I vote for that: you are both.

OMG YOU ARE A LITTLE TROLL IS THIS THE POST YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT? If you are claiming that what I posted is from your post, then I say you stole it from me.

REALLY? Unlike you I am not the one that calls America a democracy, deomcratic republic, or a social democracy. All are controlled by the majority, they are mob rule. You will only see me address America as a Constitutional Republic. Because the officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens.

I wrote, "Capitalism is economics, bigreb, while social democracy is a reform movement. Neither conflicts with the constitutional Republic. Let's review for you: (1) the Constitution is the ultimate law of the land; (2) a Republic is governed by republican representation, the election of representatives by the people. You with me on this?"

Stay with what I wrote, bud, and tell me how that conflicts with a constitutional republic?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Snap. Now check posts 125 and 151 along with 147. I guess you will have to gnaw your foot off. You are stupid.

Good night.

 

[Flopper]

Humm...I've never heard of this movie, I'm going to have to check it out.

the fountainhead is awesome too, there aren't too many movies i'll watch in black and white.
she didn't write many novels. we the living...
you might also check out some of the interviews with ayn...



live television...

Oh dear, for someone so interested in reconnecting the past and applying it to the present, you don't like to watch black and white movies? I'm shocked. Do you realize before I-Phones, there were landlines with <gasp> telephone numbers we had to force ourselves to DIAL? And before that, Bell Telephone employed thousands of people across the world just to connect us? We actually had to talk to an operator. "America" is rich in history, not just your selected versions of it. The film archives hold thousands of black and white movies which send political messages. Perhaps you should check a few out. But I'm sure they won't all please your own brand of modern politics.

I found the film a bit silly. I don't think it did justice to a great novel, however, I am not a fan of the modern individual versus those that worship tradition theme.