Bible Questions

[Foxfyre]

So foxy, here's a question...when somebody says they want to believe but just can't bring themselves to do it, how do you advise them?

I don't. A honest person either believes or he or she doesn't. And those of us who have a relationship with God know that relationship cannot be just given to or shown to somebody else. Trying to convince somebody who doesn't believe that there is a God is as futile as trying to convince those folks who don't believe in ghosts, angels, or extra terrestrial beings in my paranormal thread that such things exist.

None of them will ever fully believe until they experience it themselves and have no means to explain the experience away. Hell, as the Bible explains in great detail, some see it, experience it, and still don't believe because they are so determined to be right about their previous beliefs.

All we can do is to conduct our lives the best we can for God's glory and trust HIM to use us to show Himself to others. If they give us a foot in the door, we can witness what we believe and know. And even on their own, I fully believe that those who want to know Him, and who are willing to give Him unconditional invitation to reveal Himself, will know Him.

But the fact that so many resist is why I try to gently caution those believers who become angry and insulting to the non believers who mock and accuse and criticize and insult us. I am pretty sure very few, if any, have ever been persuaded to accept any truth via insults.

And I hate for people to be driven away from knowing God because of the angry or insulting way in which somebody introduced or represented Him.

 

[koshergrl]

On the other hand, we were told not to cast pearls before swine. I don't see the point in attempting to win over people who are motivated by demons or who have no interest whatever in the truth or enlightenment. It's a waste of time. And there's some value to identifying them as what they really are.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the other hand, we were told not to cast pearls before swine. I don't see the point in attempting to win over people who are motivated by demons or who have no interest whatever in the truth or enlightenment. It's a waste of time. And there's some value to identifying them as what they really are.

I quite agree. Which is why I won't fight with anybody about religion. When it is obvious their intent is to mock, scorn, and insult, and it gets so hateful that no further productive discussion is possible, I ignore the person or walk away. I don't worry so much about the pearls. I worry more about driving somebody away who really really needs to know the Lord or giving the mocker justification for his insults.

 

[Avatar4321]

But do keep in mind that Grace was not wanting to give up reading the Bible. But because of the particular passages she had started with, without having any grounding in a good Bible study, it was bothering her more than it was instructing her. That is something that is quite honest and real and important for us who grew up with the Bible to be aware of.

We weren't started out in the Bible in the most bloody, scary, angry, and imcomprehensible parts. We started out with edited versions of Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, Joseph and his coat of many colors, Moses parting the Red Sea, David and Goliath, Daniel in the Lion's Den. We learned them in a sanitized and kid friendly fashion and came to love them before we had to know about the blood and gore and some really intense uglies that go along with some of those stories. And because we were taught to love the stories, we were not affected so negatively by the more cruel and hard portions of the text.

We have to understand that without that conditioning, being brought up in God's love, it may not be so obvious to the novice just starting out on his or her own who starts reading the Bible without any benefit of a teacher.

don't worry. I knew she was still reading. That's why I didn't mention her there

 

[Avatar4321]

No argument there. But the living Christ is no scary figure and this topic is on Bible reading and study. My point is that you don't want to start off a novice Bible student with scriptures that are going to turn him or her off learning about it so that he/she never gets to the really good stuff and can know that it isn't all that scary.

I would say it's a testament to the effectiveness of the teachings of Jesus Christ. He teachings to love our neighbor and show kindness to others has been so effective that even those who dont believe in Christ recognize the goodness of that message and can't see past cultures through the prism of our current culture.

Then again, there are alot of evil things going on in this generation and culture that people are blind to because they are used to it. It's easy to criticize what we have recorded in the past while being blind to worse things happening now.

 

[Avatar4321]

On the other hand, we were told not to cast pearls before swine. I don't see the point in attempting to win over people who are motivated by demons or who have no interest whatever in the truth or enlightenment. It's a waste of time. And there's some value to identifying them as what they really are.

We are commanded to preach the Gospel to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. Moreover, they are our brethren, even if they don't realize it. That alone is enough to persuade them to come to Christ

 

[koshergrl]

Oh I agree. I'm just saying there's no point in conversing with demons, or people who are motivated by demons, as if they are perfectly normal humans with pure motives.

 

[koshergrl]

Remember...Christ flogged the charlatans at the temple, and he didn't spend time arguing theology with the possessed people he exorcised.

 

[Foxfyre]

Remember...Christ flogged the charlatans at the temple, and he didn't spend time arguing theology with the possessed people he exorcised.

But those people were cheating the poor in the name of God, and he was not willing to tolerate that. Likewise, he criticized and condemned those who accused and condemned others for heresy when they themselves were the worst kinds of hypocrites. Jesus didnt go after the sinners. He went after those who through word or deed hurt others. His most severe warnings were for those who would harm a child and/or lead him/her astray or those who denigrated others with hurtful insults. For ordinary sinners, he forgave them and told them to go and sin no more.

 

[koshergrl]

I'm not willing to tolerate internet trolls who bounce around with no motivation except to demonize Christians and spread lies to discredit God and the bible. I have no problem with insulting them, because for the most part, my insults are 100 percent true. It's one of those situations where "You're racist if you comment on the statistics that show the black population has particular issues." In this case, it's "You're a bad Christian if you identify evil and decry demonic and depraved activity."

It's just not true.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Dear Quantum: I appreciate your passionate defense of what you believe in. I believe
honest discourse, despite the flaws we may express in our delivery, is the way we will
establish truth and understanding, so thank you for inviting input and discussion.

As for your defense, what gives us authority when enforcing what is right
IS to be aligned with God's truth, God's will and God's justice. If we are consistent,
that is where we enforce corrections and resolve conflicts with each other.

So in order to be as consistent as possible with God's truth or laws in the Bible,
the Bible instructs us to speak the truth with love, to do all things with love,
to forgive others as we as God to forgive us. So when we speak the truth with love
and forgiveness, it comes out as wisdom and compassion and not so much in terms
of personal issues we take with people or targeting them personally.

It comes out as honest critiques and corrections of points made that could be improved
or clarified.

So it is received more effectively.

None of us is perfect in our communications.
No one can fault you without also pointing out flaws in everyone else on here who gets
personal and makes imperfect or faulty arguments or off remarks etc.

Where we strive to help each other to be more effective accurate and consistent,
those efforts will be rewarded. The more forgiving we are the easier it is to share corrections. Thus by confessing our faults to one another, and praying for one another,
our relations will be healed as the truth is established that sets us free from divisive strife.

God Bless you and keep you on the narrow path
where we can all agree in truth in Christ Jesus.

Thank you QW
Please be well and I support and encourage you in your efforts
and commitment to speak and defend God's truth for the sake of Justice or Jesus

When you realize everyone on here is also trying to defend what we know of
God's truth, it is easier to see we are allies in the same struggle and not enemies.
Fear and division become our enemies and we blame each other,
but you remove that factor with greater love and forgiveness, and behold the enemy influences are overcome that otherwise conquer us by dividing us from one another.

Don't fall for division which weakens us.
Love and forgiveness overcome and allow God's Grace through
Christ Jesus to enter in and correct the wrongs. Where we receive one another
in Divine Forgiveness and Mercy, God's will is done. So it is good to align our defenses with God's will and truth, so it speaks for itself when we share with each other.

Love, Emily

I never said I was not personally insulting, I said my insults were not based on anyone's beliefs, they are based on their actions.

As for whether or not God will honor my defense, why should I use that as a factor?

Trust me, I am infinitely patient with people who are sincere, even if I disagree with the way they interpret something. What I refuse to do is allow someone who totally rejects God, and who thinks that I should not be allowed to pray in public, to dictate to me about how I defend my faith.

Your problem is a failure to comprehend by leaping to idiotic conclusions. You can pray in public all you like. However you cannot co-opt public government meetings and use them to advance your own personal beliefs by forcing others to waste their time waiting while you pray. That you are incapable of understanding this salient point and feel the desperate need to use obscenities while stomping on the rights of others says volumes about what you really are. The mere fact that other Christians here are taking you to task should be warning enough but instead you are blind to both their advice and wisdom.

 

[Gracie]

gracie: i want to stay the innocent child in chatting with the god i love...not read things that will scare me or turn me away from how i always have been with him. Nothing could do that, but once you see something...you can't unsee it, if you know what i mean. So taking another bite out of that apple...i will become like adam and eve and the bible to me is that apple tree.

sadly, i think there are alot of christians with that mindset. They choose to not read the bible because it challenges misconceptions they might have about god.

Then there are others who read the bible and dont bother applying any of it to their lives. What's the point of knowing the entire bible, even if you have it memorized, if you dont live the principles? Loving one another, for one.

How can we expect nonbelievers to read the scriptures when there are many christians who don't for whatever reason?

i'm with gracie, and though she did not say it perhaps we both interpret the garden as the same as reading the bible but better because the garden is not just the work of god but in my opinion is the physical presence and proof of god's existence.



i will become like adam and eve and the bible to me is that apple tree.

my same exact sentiment - though including the words of god, the bible is flawed by man.

“let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”

for some and those who may interpret the garden - "and let them have in subjection" has absolutely no meaning for a work of god and to read further is not following the commandment of remission to the everlasting from god but unchanged as the same path taken away from the everlasting by adam and eve.


Christians should have an open mind to change the bible as is the commandment of remission - - if nothing else bibleist must reconsole that the bible is split between two religions diametrically, judaism - christianity and this can not be.

ding ding ding!!

 

[Derideo_Te]

On the other hand, we were told not to cast pearls before swine. I don't see the point in attempting to win over people who are motivated by demons or who have no interest whatever in the truth or enlightenment. It's a waste of time. And there's some value to identifying them as what they really are.

I quite agree. Which is why I won't fight with anybody about religion. When it is obvious their intent is to mock, scorn, and insult, and it gets so hateful that no further productive discussion is possible, I ignore the person or walk away. I don't worry so much about the pearls. I worry more about driving somebody away who really really needs to know the Lord or giving the mocker justification for his insults.

Something in common in always a good basis on which to build a relationship.

 

[Foxfyre]

Dear Quantum: I appreciate your passionate defense of what you believe in. I believe
honest discourse, despite the flaws we may express in our delivery, is the way we will
establish truth and understanding, so thank you for inviting input and discussion.

As for your defense, what gives us authority when enforcing what is right
IS to be aligned with God's truth, God's will and God's justice. If we are consistent,
that is where we enforce corrections and resolve conflicts with each other.

So in order to be as consistent as possible with God's truth or laws in the Bible,
the Bible instructs us to speak the truth with love, to do all things with love,
to forgive others as we as God to forgive us. So when we speak the truth with love
and forgiveness, it comes out as wisdom and compassion and not so much in terms
of personal issues we take with people or targeting them personally.

It comes out as honest critiques and corrections of points made that could be improved
or clarified.

So it is received more effectively.

None of us is perfect in our communications.
No one can fault you without also pointing out flaws in everyone else on here who gets
personal and makes imperfect or faulty arguments or off remarks etc.

Where we strive to help each other to be more effective accurate and consistent,
those efforts will be rewarded. The more forgiving we are the easier it is to share corrections. Thus by confessing our faults to one another, and praying for one another,
our relations will be healed as the truth is established that sets us free from divisive strife.

God Bless you and keep you on the narrow path
where we can all agree in truth in Christ Jesus.

Thank you QW
Please be well and I support and encourage you in your efforts
and commitment to speak and defend God's truth for the sake of Justice or Jesus

When you realize everyone on here is also trying to defend what we know of
God's truth, it is easier to see we are allies in the same struggle and not enemies.
Fear and division become our enemies and we blame each other,
but you remove that factor with greater love and forgiveness, and behold the enemy influences are overcome that otherwise conquer us by dividing us from one another.

Don't fall for division which weakens us.
Love and forgiveness overcome and allow God's Grace through
Christ Jesus to enter in and correct the wrongs. Where we receive one another
in Divine Forgiveness and Mercy, God's will is done. So it is good to align our defenses with God's will and truth, so it speaks for itself when we share with each other.

Love, Emily

Trust me, I am infinitely patient with people who are sincere, even if I disagree with the way they interpret something. What I refuse to do is allow someone who totally rejects God, and who thinks that I should not be allowed to pray in public, to dictate to me about how I defend my faith.

Your problem is a failure to comprehend by leaping to idiotic conclusions. You can pray in public all you like. However you cannot co-opt public government meetings and use them to advance your own personal beliefs by forcing others to waste their time waiting while you pray. That you are incapable of understanding this salient point and feel the desperate need to use obscenities while stomping on the rights of others says volumes about what you really are. The mere fact that other Christians here are taking you to task should be warning enough but instead you are blind to both their advice and wisdom.

You are quite right. At the same time, if the trial or hearing or mediation however, was between folks who requested a prayer before the proceedings began, and there was no objection from any of the principle parties, it would not harm an observer or bystander in the least to hear that prayer. Any more than it harmed us school kids--Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, non religious, pagan, Native American, or who knows what--to hear a generic student led prayer to start our general assemblies in a public, not religious, school in any of the three schools I attended through my senior year. Nor did it hurt a soul to hear a prayer before the football game or rodeo or before the class went off on a great adventure to somewhere.

It all comes down to community customs, expectations, preferences, time honored practices etc. Nobody should be coerced or punished or rewarded for what he or she does or does not believe or profess. That was a fundamental principle the Constitution was intended to protect. But also, it is a fundamental right of people not to be banished out of sight because others don't share their point of view.

Courtesy and standards of language and protocol are always appropriate rules almost anywhere. Certainly somebody standing up to pray at a gathering in which that prayer is not part of the schedule and in a way as to be disruptive to the meeting is not appropriate and not something to be condoned.

If we could just get back to that time honored live and let live, be considerate and generous way of life, I think we all could work out far more difficult problems much more effectively.

 

[Derideo_Te]

I'm not willing to tolerate internet trolls who bounce around with no motivation except to demonize Christians and spread lies to discredit God and the bible. I have no problem with insulting them, because for the most part, my insults are 100 percent true. It's one of those situations where "You're racist if you comment on the statistics that show the black population has particular issues." In this case, it's "You're a bad Christian if you identify evil and decry demonic and depraved activity."

It's just not true.

Lowering yourself to their level means that no one can tell the difference between you and them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Since when does anyone have to believe the bible in order to quote it?

You don't need anyone else's help to mock your beliefs since you are doing such a great job of it all by yourself with your crude language.

Care to point out where I said you can't quote the Bible? What I said, and maintain, is that your doing so amounts to mocking, just like it was when Satan did it. I notice you didn't deny it, you just resorted to straw man arguments.

You have no clue what a straw man argument actually is which explains why you fling it around whenever you are on the defensive. As far as quoting the bible is concerned that is not mocking. Instead it is pointing out your hypocrisy where you claim to be a Christian but ignore the teachings of your Lord and Savior. Your anger management issues and lack of knowledge about what you profess to believe are apparent to everyone who is reading this thread.

I challenged you to show me where God condemned Adam and Eve, you responded by demanding I prove something I did not say. When I refused to take that bait you claimed I said you can't quote the Bible, something, once again, I did not say. Care to explain how you attacking a position I do not hold while attributing it to me is not a straw man? Care to point out anywhere in this thread I have defended anything?

In fact, why don't you point out where I ever said Jesus was Lord and Savior, or is that another straw man argument intended to put me on the defensive?

 

[koshergrl]

I'm not willing to tolerate internet trolls who bounce around with no motivation except to demonize Christians and spread lies to discredit God and the bible. I have no problem with insulting them, because for the most part, my insults are 100 percent true. It's one of those situations where "You're racist if you comment on the statistics that show the black population has particular issues." In this case, it's "You're a bad Christian if you identify evil and decry demonic and depraved activity."

It's just not true.

Lowering yourself to their level means that no one can tell the difference between you and them.

Since when is identifying liars, cheats and depraved perverts "lowering yourself to their level"?

Its' not. Carry on lying and promoting depravity.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Your problem is a failure to comprehend by leaping to idiotic conclusions. You can pray in public all you like. However you cannot co-opt public government meetings and use them to advance your own personal beliefs by forcing others to waste their time waiting while you pray. That you are incapable of understanding this salient point and feel the desperate need to use obscenities while stomping on the rights of others says volumes about what you really are. The mere fact that other Christians here are taking you to task should be warning enough but instead you are blind to both their advice and wisdom.

No, my problem is that you are a whiny little bitch.

You argued that prayer, in and of itself, is offensive, and thus prohibited under the Constitution. I shoved your face in the fact that I get free reign to offend whiny little bitches even in public forums. You then tried to claim that I would get offended and demand the government protect from the prayer of a Satanist. I personally, not being a whiny little bitch, would have no problem if a Satanist got elected to be mayor and started every city council meeting dedicating the proceedings to whatever he thinks Satan is.

Unfortunately, for him, the whiny little bitches would object to that, and force him to comply with what the Supreme Court has ruled is acceptable under those circumstances. The whiny little bitch test has three parts, prayer must have a secular legislative purpose, must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion, and must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion. If you want to try and learn the whiny little bitch test is commonly refereed to as the Lemon test.

You really should stop being a whiny little bitch, you aren't impressing anyone, especially when I can actually cite case law to prove how wrong you are.

 

[emilynghiem]

Care to point out where I said you can't quote the Bible? What I said, and maintain, is that your doing so amounts to mocking, just like it was when Satan did it. I notice you didn't deny it, you just resorted to straw man arguments.

You have no clue what a straw man argument actually is which explains why you fling it around whenever you are on the defensive. As far as quoting the bible is concerned that is not mocking. Instead it is pointing out your hypocrisy where you claim to be a Christian but ignore the teachings of your Lord and Savior. Your anger management issues and lack of knowledge about what you profess to believe are apparent to everyone who is reading this thread.

I challenged you to show me where God condemned Adam and Eve, you responded by demanding I prove something I did not say. When I refused to take that bait you claimed I said you can't quote the Bible, something, once again, I did not say. Care to explain how you attacking a position I do not hold while attributing it to me is not a straw man? Care to point out anywhere in this thread I have defended anything?

In fact, why don't you point out where I ever said Jesus was Lord and Savior, or is that another straw man argument intended to put me on the defensive?

Dear QW and DT: I am interested in hearing the actual points you have with each other.
but all I am reading out of the above is "when did I say this" or "where did I claim that."
if those are not the issue, can those be dropped? And just focus on what the issues really are?

At this point, I see people complaining about 'crude' or rude language used by QW which detracts from communicating and receiving effectively.

As for straw man arguments, that's like defining evolution to be "man coming from apes" just to prove it false or defining God to be only out to "condemn and punish" to reject that.

I think what is happening here is more like misreading what someone means, so when you repeat it back it comes across as putting words in people's mouths, but that's not the same as setting up straw man arguments. it may be similar but not the same.

Whether you believe in the Bible or not, you can quote it, but it is STILL important to present it accurately and not take something out of context to make a 'straw man' argument (or to discredit your intent if you are using scripture in ways someone else questions).

As for Adam and Eve being condemned, no I see it more like the natural consequence that once humanity became self-aware and had more knowledge than we knew how to handle responsibly (ie a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, like knowledge of the law or knowledge of guns without full knowledge of how to mediate and resolve conflicts as priority)
then we got into more trouble that started the vicious cycle of karmic suffering/sin that has been passed down ever since. So the point of the sacrifice of Christ is to break the vicious cycle of retribution for past wrongs by divine forgiveness which allows correction and healing. So there can be peace and justice restored for all humanity, regardless of the past.
This doesn't mean to blindly forget the injustice, but calls for restitution and equity restored.
the forgiveness is on the spiritual level, where grace is given unconditionally not earned.
And from that divine healing and peace then the corrections/restitution follows by free will.
so after we restore good faith relations and harmony among humanity, then we can work together civilly to correct prevent and deter future problems by learning from the past.

Receiving healing grace and salvation through Christ Jesus means to establish restorative justice and embrace it in all our relationships and institutions where all nations/tribes are united in the spirit of truth, bringing peace and freedom to all, for equal and lasting justice. This is the Kingdom of God to be established on earth as it is in heaven, as God's will is done.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You have no clue what a straw man argument actually is which explains why you fling it around whenever you are on the defensive. As far as quoting the bible is concerned that is not mocking. Instead it is pointing out your hypocrisy where you claim to be a Christian but ignore the teachings of your Lord and Savior. Your anger management issues and lack of knowledge about what you profess to believe are apparent to everyone who is reading this thread.

I challenged you to show me where God condemned Adam and Eve, you responded by demanding I prove something I did not say. When I refused to take that bait you claimed I said you can't quote the Bible, something, once again, I did not say. Care to explain how you attacking a position I do not hold while attributing it to me is not a straw man? Care to point out anywhere in this thread I have defended anything?

In fact, why don't you point out where I ever said Jesus was Lord and Savior, or is that another straw man argument intended to put me on the defensive?

Dear QW and DT: I am interested in hearing the actual points you have with each other.
but all I am reading out of the above is "when did I say this" or "where did I claim that."
if those are not the issue, can those be dropped? And just focus on what the issues really are?

At this point, I see people complaining about 'crude' or rude language used by QW which detracts from communicating and receiving effectively.

As for straw man arguments, that's like defining evolution to be "man coming from apes" just to prove it false or defining God to be only out to "condemn and punish" to reject that.

I think what is happening here is more like misreading what someone means, so when you repeat it back it comes across as putting words in people's mouths, but that's not the same as setting up straw man arguments. it may be similar but not the same.

Whether you believe in the Bible or not, you can quote it, but it is STILL important to present it accurately and not take something out of context to make a 'straw man' argument (or to discredit your intent if you are using scripture in ways someone else questions).

As for Adam and Eve being condemned, no I see it more like the natural consequence that once humanity became self-aware and had more knowledge than we knew how to handle responsibly (ie a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, like knowledge of the law or knowledge of guns without full knowledge of how to mediate and resolve conflicts as priority)
then we got into more trouble that started the vicious cycle of karmic suffering/sin that has been passed down ever since. So the point of the sacrifice of Christ is to break the vicious cycle of retribution for past wrongs by divine forgiveness which allows correction and healing. So there can be peace and justice restored for all humanity, regardless of the past.
This doesn't mean to blindly forget the injustice, but calls for restitution and equity restored.
the forgiveness is on the spiritual level, where grace is given unconditionally not earned.
And from that divine healing and peace then the corrections/restitution follows by free will.
so after we restore good faith relations and harmony among humanity, then we can work together civilly to correct prevent and deter future problems by learning from the past.

Receiving healing grace and salvation through Christ Jesus means to establish restorative justice and embrace it in all our relationships and institutions where all nations/tribes are united in the spirit of truth, bringing peace and freedom to all, for equal and lasting justice. This is the Kingdom of God to be established on earth as it is in heaven, as God's will is done.

He keeps putting words in my mouth, and attacking me based on them. If you don't like me calling him on it get him to stop doing it.