Black cop kills white, unarmed white woman on 1/6 and is rewarded with a promotion

[Ghost of a Rider]

As planned.

Yes, as planned. So?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

So how did those Elipse rally goers who wanted to "stop the steal" end up there?

Trump SENT them

Trump didn't send anyone anywhere. These people didn't work for him and he didn't force them.

 

[BlindBoo]

Trump didn't send anyone anywhere. These people didn't work for him and he didn't force them.

"And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country.

And I say this despite all that's happened. The best is yet to come.

So we're going to, we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we're going to the Capitol, and we're going to try and give.

The Democrats are hopeless — they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we're going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don't need any of our help. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.

So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

I want to thank you all. God bless you and God Bless America.

Thank you all for being here. This is incredible. Thank you very much. Thank you."

DJT Jan 6th closing remarks.

Pop quiz, where were they going?

 

[Chillicothe]

Any group of supporters or activists are capable of anything. Trump and Trump supporters are not unique in that respect

Capable of anything. But then they did something.
What was "unique" in this situation was that Trump as President of the United States of America called his cult to gather ("Be there. Will be wild")....he, and his crowd fluffers before him, incited and increased the anger temperature....and then, critically, that angered crowd violently attacked the People House and the men and women protecting it.

THAT was unique. Don Trump must not be allowed to fig-leaf himself by saying "How was I to know they were mad?

There is blame to be assigned for J6. About 1,100 so far have gotten some of the blame. Some more of the blame need fall on Don Trump.

He didn't incite any emotions or feelings they weren't feeling already.

He increased, exacerbated, and intensified ......and then directed that anger at the People's House and our elected Representatives.
----------------------------------------------------

In fact, no one was armed at the Capital building later.

Ummm, no.
That is not true.
A quick google will disabuse you of that canard.

False.

Not false. Testimony at the J6 Hearings relayed that Trump had been told there were weapons in the crowd .....and he cavalierly and uncaringly said the people ain't there to hurt him.

The very point of political speech is to provoke passion about issues.

Passion is one thing. Violence that follows immediately is another animal.

And what if no one had broken into the Capital that day?

Moot.

I DO give a shit when people start assigning blame to mere words and speech

Mere words and speeches can and have caused panic, injury, and death.
"Fire" shouted in a crowded theatre is merely a word.


Don Trump is morally responsible for the violence of J6. The upcoming trial for J6 will determine.....if he is criminally responsible in the eyes of the law.
In my layman's opinion, he is.

But my opinion has far less import than the jury's.
Let's go to trial. The sooner the better.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

"And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

Our exciting adventures and boldest endeavors have not yet begun. My fellow Americans, for our movement, for our children, and for our beloved country.

And I say this despite all that's happened. The best is yet to come.

So we're going to, we're going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue. I love Pennsylvania Avenue. And we're going to the Capitol, and we're going to try and give.

The Democrats are hopeless — they never vote for anything. Not even one vote. But we're going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones because the strong ones don't need any of our help. We're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.

So let's walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

I want to thank you all. God bless you and God Bless America.

Thank you all for being here. This is incredible. Thank you very much. Thank you."

DJT Jan 6th closing remarks.

Pop quiz, where were they going?

Look, you're just not getting where I'm coming from. I know Trump said these things and I know some in the crowd did as he asked. The point I'm trying to make here is that they did as he asked because it was what they wanted to do and so they chose to do it.

Trump did not "send" anyone to the Capital; he didn't have the power or authority to do so.

 

[Lesh]

Look, you're just not getting where I'm coming from. I know Trump said these things and I know some in the crowd did as he asked. The point I'm trying to make here is that they did as he asked because it was what they wanted to do and so they chose to do it.

Trump did not "send" anyone to the Capital; he didn't have the power or authority to do so.

He absolutely did “send” them to the Capitol.

He told them to go there and “stop the steal “ and said he was going with them

 

[Lesh]

And they may have been inclined to go to the Capitol but Trump reinforced that and egged them on and even told them “the rules were different” and they should fight like hell.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Capable of anything. But then they did something.

Other groups did something too. So?

What was "unique" in this situation was that Trump as President of the United States of America called his cult to gather ("Be there. Will be wild")....he, and his crowd fluffers before him, incited and increased the anger temperature....and then, critically, that angered crowd violently attacked the People House and the men and women protecting it.

1.) This is no different than BLM chanting "Pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon" and then thugs going out to ambush and assassinate police officers.

2.) Nowhere in any of that rhetoric does Trump tell them to break into the Capital.

THAT was unique. Don Trump must not be allowed to fig-leaf himself by saying "How was I to know they were mad?

There is blame to be assigned for J6. About 1,100 so far have gotten some of the blame. Some more of the blame need fall on Don Trump.

Wrong. The ones who broke in should be punished accordingly. No one should be punished for their speech unless it directly calls for violence or breaking the law, which Trump did not do.

He increased, exacerbated, and intensified ......and then directed that anger at the People's House and our elected Representatives.

People direct anger at Congress every day.

----------------------------------------------------

Ummm, no.
That is not true.
A quick google will disabuse you of that canard.

ONE guy was armed at the Capital with a firearm and he never unholstered it. The other people that were armed were spotted by officers in the area of (but not at the) Capital building and this was before the rally crowd had moved to the Capital.

Not false. Testimony at the J6 Hearings relayed that Trump had been told there were weapons in the crowd .....and he cavalierly and uncaringly said the people ain't there to hurt him.

And how did they know there were weapons in the crowd if the metal detectors were in place?

Passion is one thing. Violence that follows immediately is another animal.

Exactly. The speech and the violence that came after are two entirely different things in that speech has no power to compel a person to commit violence. How one reacts to speech and how they act is a choice.

Moot.

Not moot. The break-in and the violence were not inevitable and unavoidable. Jan 6 could have turned out differently - peaceful - even if Trump's rhetoric was the same.

That said, if it had never happened, what blame then is there in the speech?

Mere words and speeches can and have caused panic, injury, and death.
"Fire" shouted in a crowded theatre is merely a word.

Inapt analogy. The word "fire" in this case is not rhetorical, i.e., everyone would understand that someone is saying there is, in fact, a literal fire and that their lives are in danger.

Not so with the Jan. 6 speech. Obviously Trump and the other speakers wanted them angry so they would demonstrate and make their voices heard. But at no point did he or anyone else tell them to break into the Capital.

Don Trump is morally responsible for the violence of J6. The upcoming trial for J6 will determine.....if he is criminally responsible in the eyes of the law.
In my layman's opinion, he is.

He shouldn't be held responsible for other peoples' choices. There might be a case made for his reluctance to act but to me, that's as far as it should go.

The alternative is frightening. If one can be held legally accountable for violence that follows a speech even though the speech never specifically called for violence then that will set a precedent that will snowball to the point where the 1st Amendment is irrelevant.

But my opinion has far less import than the jury's.
Let's go to trial. The sooner the better.

If the jury does find him accountable for his speech then I will say they are wrong and they are violating every principle of the 1st Amendment.

And you still have not answered my question. Can you tell me why not every person at the rally broke into the Capital?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

He absolutely did “send” them to the Capitol.

He told them to go there and “stop the steal “ and said he was going with them

Trump had no power to compel anyone to go anywhere. It was their choice and it always was.

 

[Chillicothe]

Nowhere in any of that rhetoric does Trump tell them to break into the Capital.

And when Vito Corleone said "Make him an offer he can't refuse."
He wasn't talking about cannoli.
But they knew what he meant.

Don Trump, in his leadership role as President of the United States of America had a greater duty, a greater responsibility, to be judicious and thoughtful in his rhetoric. Most especially after he had been active for weeks stoking anger over a lie about the elections. Most especially after hearing a dozen or so of his crowd fluffers use incendiary and instigating harangues of the assembled MAGA crowd.
He knew what he had there. He should have known.
He knew his people. His dozens and dozens of rallies had been instructive on how to incite, stoke, and provoke his fanboys. He'd seen it before. He could calibrate it. He should have calibrated it better.
He knew the power of his words. He knew the kind and mood of people who were out there.

Those folks came to DC angry. Trump made 'em that way over the previous weeks. So Trump and others made 'em angrier at the Ellipse.
He cocked the gun, and aimed it at the Capitol.
It went off.
For Don Trump to now claim.....'I didn't know they were that mad! I didn't know they'd go to the Capitol and do what they did. I didn't know.'.....is disingenuous. Is dishonest. He should have known. Real leaders are responsible.

People direct anger at Congress every day.

Don Trump, as POTUS, is different than other 'people'. He had a duty. A responsibility. As the leader.
He failed to quiet the mob. He failed to forestall or mitigate the riot to come. He should have. It was his duty.
That's on him.
He was derelict in his duty as President, as Commander in Chief, as the nation's top leader.

there is, in fact, a literal fire and that their lives are in danger.

A prankster or a malevolent player could scream "fire" ....when there was no fire.
And tragedy occurs.
Words matter....even the word 'fire'
How it is spoken and in what context or what circumstances matter.
I am mildly convinced you know that.

And you still have not answered my question. Can you tell me why not every person at the rally broke into the Capital?

Ummm? And I would know that how?
I'm an old farmer in Carharts......and was near 800 miles away on a tractor bucket pruning apple trees on January 6th, the day of the insurrection. When my bride called and told me to look at the newsfeeds on my phone.....I was gobsmacked. And will remember it like I remember the Kennedy assassination, like 9/11. Tragedies for America. How could I not?

And someone or someone(s) are responsible for those tragedies. Someone was blamed for those tragedies. And must be for January 6th.
I believe Don Trump bears the lion's share of blame for J6.
I hope I am clear on that.

 

[BlindBoo]

Look, you're just not getting where I'm coming from. I know Trump said these things and I know some in the crowd did as he asked. The point I'm trying to make here is that they did as he asked because it was what they wanted to do and so they chose to do it.

Trump did not "send" anyone to the Capital; he didn't have the power or authority to do so.

Not only did he send them to the Capitol building at the end of his speech with his words that day, but he also called all of them to come to the Capitol, DC, on that special day beginning in December.

 

[BlindBoo]

Trump had no power to compel anyone to go anywhere. It was their choice and it always was.

Hahahaha, well he didn't 'Order' them to go if that's what you mean or need to cast some blame on the Dirty Don. He certainly proved he had the power to compel them to come to DC that day.

 

[marvin martian]

Not even ever you lying fuck

No one believes you only support cops killing unarmed protesters some of the time. That's a ludicrous lie even for a piece of shit like you.

You cheered when the cops killed George Floyd just like you cheered when they killed Ashli Babbitt.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

And when Vito Corleone said "Make him an offer he can't refuse."
He wasn't talking about cannoli.
But they knew what he meant.

Don't be stupid. A quote from a movie is not evidence that Trump directed them to break into the Capital.

Don Trump, in his leadership role as President of the United States of America had a greater duty, a greater responsibility, to be judicious and thoughtful in his rhetoric. Most especially after he had been active for weeks stoking anger over a lie about the elections. Most especially after hearing a dozen or so of his crowd fluffers use incendiary and instigating harangues of the assembled MAGA crowd.
He knew what he had there. He should have known.
He knew his people. His dozens and dozens of rallies had been instructive on how to incite, stoke, and provoke his fanboys. He'd seen it before. He could calibrate it. He should have calibrated it better.
He knew the power of his words. He knew the kind and mood of people who were out there.

Irrelevant. The fact remains that none of this is evidence or proof that Trump incited them to break into the Capital.

Those folks came to DC angry. Trump made 'em that way over the previous weeks. So Trump and others made 'em angrier at the Ellipse.

And? Still no evidence of incitement.

He cocked the gun, and aimed it at the Capitol.
It went off.

Yes, to march there and make their voices heard.

For Don Trump to now claim.....'I didn't know they were that mad! I didn't know they'd go to the Capitol and do what they did. I didn't know.'.....is disingenuous. Is dishonest. He should have known. Real leaders are responsible.

Wrong. It is your opinion that he should have known.

Don Trump, as POTUS, is different than other 'people'. He had a duty. A responsibility. As the leader.

So did the members of Congress. The way the Democrats hounded Trump for four years - even over trivial shit - was unprofessional and childish.
They spent five years trying to convince the American people that the president they elected was racist and every other kind of -ist and -phobe in the book. In other words, they stoked anger and resentment in their constituents just as you say Trump did.

He failed to quiet the mob. He failed to forestall or mitigate the riot to come.

Wrong. One can't be held liable for not mitigating an event that no one saw coming. Again, the riot and break-in were not the inevitable result of Trump's speech. It very well could have gone the other way. It is unjust and unfair to hold someone accountable after the fact just because it happened when there was an equal chance that it might NOT have happened.

He should have. It was his duty.
That's on him.
He was derelict in his duty as President, as Commander in Chief, as the nation's top leader.

Possibly. But that is just a character assessment. A president not being presidential is not against the law.

A prankster or a malevolent player could scream "fire" ....when there was no fire.

No shit.

And tragedy occurs.
Words matter....even the word 'fire'
How it is spoken and in what context or what circumstances matter.
I am mildly convinced you know that.

I've already explained why it was a bad analogy. Shouting "fire" in a theater is not rhetorical and is not meant to be. In the case of a prankster, it is meant to be taken literally; there is an actual fire in the theater.

Trump's speech was rhetoric and saying "fight" - even twenty times - in no way is evidence of incitement.

Ummm? And I would know that how?

Now we come down to it. You seem to think you know everything else about this. You think you know Trump incited them to riot (even though he never said or implied any such thing); that his supporters went to D.C. specifically to riot or stage an insurrection (even though there's no evidence to suggest this); that Trump was very much aware that this is what they would do (even though there's no way to know this).

When it comes to sweeping vagaries and insupportable allegations, you know everything. One would think you are a mind reader. But when it comes down to the individual, suddenly you don't know shit.

The answer to the question is that some chose to riot and break in and most chose not to. This means most exercised restraint and better judgment and that some did not. Given this, who's really to blame for the riot and break-in?

I'm an old farmer in Carharts......and was near 800 miles away on a tractor bucket pruning apple trees on January 6th, the day of the insurrection. When my bride called and told me to look at the newsfeeds on my phone.....I was gobsmacked. And will remember it like I remember the Kennedy assassination, like 9/11. Tragedies for America. How could I not?

And someone or someone(s) are responsible for those tragedies. Someone was blamed for those tragedies.

Yes, the ones who actually committed these tragedies with their own hands. Trump gave a speech.

And must be for January 6th.
I believe Don Trump bears the lion's share of blame for J6.
I hope I am clear on that.

You've been clear on that from the beginning. I just happen to disagree.

I'm not comfortable with assigning blame to a speech, especially a speech that did not specifically call for the actions taken by some of the listeners later.

 

[marvin martian]

And they may have been inclined to go to the Capitol but Trump reinforced that and egged them on and even told them “the rules were different” and they should fight like hell.

Liar.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Hahahaha, well he didn't 'Order' them to go if that's what you mean or need to cast some blame on the Dirty Don.

If he didn't order them then he didn't send them.

He certainly proved he had the power to compel them to come to DC that day.

No he didn't. Neither Trump nor anyone else has the power to compel someone to do something they're not already inclined to do. Besides, inviting his supporters to D.C. is not a crime. If it wasn't wrong before the riot then it wasn't wrong after the riot.

 

[Lesh]

If he didn't order them then he didn't send them.


No he didn't. Neither Trump nor anyone else has the power to compel someone to do something they're not already inclined to do. Besides, inviting his supporters to D.C. is not a crime. If it wasn't wrong before the riot then it wasn't wrong after the riot.

When he finally told them to go home… they did

He had the power to get those maniacs to do whatever he wanted

 

[BlindBoo]

If he didn't order them then he didn't send them.


No he didn't. Neither Trump nor anyone else has the power to compel someone to do something they're not already inclined to do. Besides, inviting his supporters to D.C. is not a crime. If it wasn't wrong before the riot then it wasn't wrong after the riot.

The gathering, the march on the Capitol, and the riot was not a spontaneous event. Instead of trying calm the rioters, the Trumpyberra incited them even further during the event.

In a 2:24 p.m. tweet, Trump wrote: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution."

The crowd was ready to hang Pence.

 

[Chillicothe]

Don't be stupid. A quote from a movie is not evidence that Trump directed them to break into the Capital.

Don't be fatuous.
Analogy is a thing.
Trust me.
------------------------------------------------------------------

• The fact remains that none of this is evidence or proof that Trump incited them to break into the Capita
• .You've been clear on that from the beginning. I just happen to disagree.

And so, thankfully, we go to trial.

Don Trump can explain to the court, to the jury, not you and me......why he is innocent of:

• one count of conspiracy to defraud the United States applies to Trump's repeated and widespread efforts to spread false claims about the November 2020 election while knowing they were not true and for allegedly attempting to illegally discount legitimate votes all with the goal of overturning the 2020 election, prosecutors claim in the indictment.
• one count of conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding was brought due to the alleged organized planning by Trump and his allies to disrupt the electoral vote's certification in January 2021.
• one count of obstruction of and attempt to obstruct an official proceeding is tied to Trump and his co-conspirators' alleged efforts after the November 2020 election until Jan. 7, 2021, to block the official certification proceeding in Congress.
• one count of conspiracy against rights refers to Trump and his co-conspirators alleged attempts to "oppress, threaten and intimidate" people in their right to vote in an election.

We are a country of laws. And no man is above the law.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

When he finally told them to go home… they did

He had the power to get those maniacs to do whatever he wanted

No, he didn't. No one does.

Every one of those people who stormed the Capital had the choice not to do so.

Look at it this way; if the crowd had been mostly Democrats, would his speech have had the same power or effect? Of course not. Ergo, Trump has no power in that regard. Ultimately, the power to choose and act always resides within the individual.