Breaking: Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas ... 7 confirmed dead

[Kalam]

Not at all irrelevant. As long as the victims are not "innocent" in the eyes of a Muslim and/or Islam, then killing is okie dokie and even justified, no?

That would depend on the severity of any offenses they may have committed. To my knowledge, none of those killed were personally guilty of murdering innocents, rape, or other crimes that involve spreading abhorrent corruption in the land. I do not believe in collective punishment or condemnation; that's a tactic employed all too often by Islam's enemies.

The line between guilty and innocent in clear one who denies "allahs" singular right to be worshiped is a wrong doers and guilty


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in this verse.
In the Arabic the word is Zâlimûn
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors in 2:193 and 2:254

Quraan Transliteration

That means disbelief is oppresion

Your argument might make a lick of sense if the passage two verses after the one you cited did not run thus:

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256​

 

[Kalam]

Im not aware of any daylight between any school of Islamic thought when it comes to the topic of jihad and infidelity .

If you're serious, than you're much less familiar with Islam than I believed you to be. You read Qutb, correct? Did you miss his polemic against those he calls "defeatists"?

 

[mdn2000]

Hey that woxi guy is a mind reader ,
he think he knows what muslims think.

It does not matter what the vast majority of Islam beleives, what is obvious is the vast majority of Islam does not agree with one another.

Sunni or Shia and all those who beleive have very different ideas. Saudi as a country practice much differently than those Arabs in Israel practice. We keep hearing its not a majority yet the amount of rotten apples is an awfully high number. How about before you folks start telling us its not a majority you start by giving us the number of how many who practice Islam are crazy fanatics.

The figure has to be at least 100 million.

Im not aware of any daylight between any school of Islamic thought when it comes to the topic of jihad and infidelity .

All I see is scripture quoted that millions of moslems disagree with. I see and read of moslems traditions, I see similiarities between the past and the present, I see those who vehemently defend Islam yet the reality is that there are millions of moslems who disagree.

If folks can say its not a majority they should at least be able to say how many.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yea you're absolutely right. We shouldn't judge all Muslims. In fact, lets just open up our borders even more and let them pour into our country. We need more "diversity". This country was built on it right?

Hey that woxi guy is a mind reader ,
he think he knows what muslims think.

asshat

Please link to a post where I have stated what a Muslims thinks?
I provide what is well known Islamic scripture.
I have never insisted all Muslims follow this interpretation.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

That would depend on the severity of any offenses they may have committed. To my knowledge, none of those killed were personally guilty of murdering innocents, rape, or other crimes that involve spreading abhorrent corruption in the land. I do not believe in collective punishment or condemnation; that's a tactic employed all too often by Islam's enemies.

The line between guilty and innocent in clear one who denies "allahs" singular right to be worshiped is a wrong doers and guilty


Is there an Arabic word for these oppressors ?

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Seems there is little doubt as to the use of the word oppressor in this verse.
In the Arabic the word is Zâlimûn
Polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust.

The Noble Quran's Search Results:

Apparently the same arabic word is used to describe oppresors in 2:193 and 2:254

Quraan Transliteration

That means disbelief is oppresion

Your argument might make a lick of sense if the passage two verses after the one you cited did not run thus:

There is no compulsion in religion -- the right way is indeed clearly distinct from error. So whoever disbelieves in the devil and believes in Allah, he indeed lays hold on the firmest handle which shall never break. And Allah is Hearing, Knowing. - 2:256​

Thanks a typo,

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Im not aware of any daylight between any school of Islamic thought when it comes to the topic of jihad and infidelity .

If you're serious, than you're much less familiar with Islam than I believed you to be. You read Qutb, correct? Did you miss his polemic against those he calls "defeatists"?

Yeah, go ahead and use Qutb to prove how tolerant and pluralistic Islam is.

 

[elvis]

Im not aware of any daylight between any school of Islamic thought when it comes to the topic of jihad and infidelity .

If you're serious, than you're much less familiar with Islam than I believed you to be. You read Qutb, correct? Did you miss his polemic against those he calls "defeatists"?

Yeah, go ahead and use Qutb to prove how tolerant and pluralistic Islam is.

Not all Muslims believe as Sayyid Qutb did.

 

[Kalam]

If folks can say its not a majority they should at least be able to say how many.

Seven percent.

In order to investigate characteristics that distinguish Muslim world residents
who are potentially prone to extremist views, we divided respondents from
the region into two groups. Classified as political radicals were those who met
the following criteria: 1) they felt the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, were
“completely justified”, and 2) they indicate that they have an “unfavorable” or
“very unfavorable” opinion of the United States. Those who did not say the
attacks were completely justified were termed moderates. The “radical” group
represents about 7% of the total population across the 10 countries included in
the study.​

From:
Gallup Center for Muslim Studies

 

[Kalam]

Yeah, go ahead and use Qutb to prove how tolerant and pluralistic Islam is.

That's not what I'm doing at all. You said that there was no significant disagreement between Islamic schools of thought concerning jihad. I pointed out that Qutb dedicated a significant portion of Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq to criticizing a school of thought whose opinion of jihad he disliked.

 

[Maple]

The question is irrelevant, as the soldiers who were killed were on American soil and were killed by another soldier. If he killed them merely because they were part of a body that took part in what he saw as unjustified invasions and occupations, logic dictates that he should have killed himself for being guilty of the same perceived "sin."

Not at all irrelevant. As long as the victims are not "innocent" in the eyes of a Muslim and/or Islam, then killing is okie dokie and even justified, no?

That would depend on the severity of any offenses they may have committed. To my knowledge, none of those killed were personally guilty of murdering innocents, rape, or other crimes that involve spreading abhorrent corruption in the land. I do not believe in collective punishment or condemnation; that's a tactic employed all too often by Islam's enemies.

What a sick and twisted religion Islam is and too think so many buy into it. What gives any person the right to sit in judgement on anyone else and then decide to murder them. What cowards these people are. These always go after unsuspecting, unarmed people and think that their religion justifies what they do, that they can determine who is innocent and who is guilty, then act on it. What arrogance and what horrendous stupidity that comes out of this fraud of a religion.

 

[Dr Grump]

fraud of a religion.

Aren't they all.....

 

[Kalam]

What gives any person the right to sit in judgement on anyone else and then decide to murder them.

Virtually every code of law that has ever been written. Ever.

You may find these articles useful:
Judge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Executioner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kalam]

My God... I don't believe you could have phrased that question more hilariously. You are skillfully ignorant.



Clearly, you were unaware that men and women sit and pass judgment on criminals in the US on a daily basis; this judgment occasionally results in the guilty party being sentenced to death.

 

[elvis]

My God... I don't believe you could have phrased that question more hilariously. You are skillfully ignorant.



Clearly, you were unaware that men and women sit and pass judgment on criminals in the US on a daily basis; this judgment occasionally results in the guilty party being sentenced to death.

the reverse is also true.

 

[Kalam]

that they can determine who is innocent and who is guilty, then act on it.

Once again, you have successfully identified the primary function of every criminal justice system, including our own. Congratulations.

 

[mdn2000]

Is it just me or do is Kalem making veiled references to me not being innocent, that I and the USA deserve what we get.

Kalem states these people were not personally guilty

Why not state they were "not guilty", what relevance is there in this statement in relation to the victims, why go out of your way to state which crimes victims of another crime are not guilty of.

Because death is appropriate for those guilty of the crimes I listed. To my knowledge, as I said, none of the victims were rapists or murderers, so their deaths were not justified. Even if they were, vigilantism is not a proper course of action when due process can be observed. I made the "personally" distinction because some soldiers are guilty of rape or purposefully killing innocents and deserve to be tried and executed for their crimes. Take, for example, the American soldiers who gang-raped a 14 year-old Iraqi girl after killing her entire family. They then killed her and burned the house down. As with all scum, Muslim or non-Muslim, trying and executing those individuals would be justifiable.

I think Kalem is twisted to even make such crazy statements. A man is murdered and Kalem points out they were not "personally guilty" of rape?

I listed capital offenses under Islam to make it clear that the killer's motivation couldn't have been genuinely Islamic.

I think this is about the ugliest statement made in this thread, think about that, a man dies, his children are crying, we are told not to speculate yet Kalem arrogantly states this man who has been murdered by a molem was not "pesonally guilty".

I have no idea how my statement could be considered "arrogant" or "offensive." You, sir, are a loony toon.

edit: Most of my ancestors are European. It may disappoint you to know that I am, by most standards, a white guy. Islam is not endemic to any single race or ethnicity.

As far as what you say and why you say it is very clear. I pointed out what you stated in your first post, I pointed out that its a terrible statement. If you wish to retract or deny your original meaning feel free.

Kalem, you have plenty of posts where you draw conclusions on facts you know absolutely nothing of, you also have made plenty of statements to show your bias. You even call books written by great authors "coloring books".

Kalem, of all that post Kalem knows the least of Islam, Kalem has his nose stuck up the Koran so far Kalem has never bothered to read the unbiased western accounts of Islamic history.

Even in this thread Kalem must demonize the dead, I dont care how you reword things kalem, it was pretty low to state that the victims "were not personally guilty of rape". Those murdered were collectively guilty of many crimes hence they were not innocent hence the Moslem acted in accordance with Islamic religion, law, tradition, and culture, as the murderer beleived. The murderer interpeted the murder of the infidels as in accordance with his beleifs, it just so happened the murderer was Sunni.

Yep, the soldiers were not personally guilty of Iraqi's killed in battle or woman raped by a US soldier, they were not personally guilty of the invasion of Iraq, they were not personally guilty of killing innocent Iraqis with stray bombs or bullets but they are guilty for volunteering to serve in the Army that is guilty of these crimes.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Yeah, go ahead and use Qutb to prove how tolerant and pluralistic Islam is.

That's not what I'm doing at all. You said that there was no significant disagreement between Islamic schools of thought concerning jihad. I pointed out that Qutb dedicated a significant portion of Ma'alim fi-l-Tariq to criticizing a school of thought whose opinion of jihad he disliked.

Yeah, I doubt he would have cared for you much

Ma'alim fi al-Tariq, also Ma'alim fi'l-tareeq, (Arabic: معالم في الطري&#1602 or Milestones, first published in 1964, is a short (12 chapters, 160 pages) book by Egyptian Islamist author Sayyid Qutb in which he lays out a plan and makes a call to action to re-create the Muslim world on strictly Qur'anic grounds, casting off what Qutb calls Jahiliyyah, the pre-Islamic ignorance that the world has lapsed into.
Ma'alim fi al-Tariq has been called "one of the most influential works in Arabic of the last half century".[1] It is probably Qutb's most famous and influential work and one of the most influential Islamist tracts written. It is also a manifesto for the ideology of Qutbism. Commentators have both praised Milestones as a ground-breaking, inspirational work by a hero and a martyr,[2] and reviled it as a prime example of unreasoning entitlement, self-pity, paranoia, and hatred that has been a major influence on Islamist terrorism.[3]
English translations of the book are usually entitled simply "Milestones," the book is also sometimes referred to as "Signposts." The title Ma'alim fi al-Tariq translates into English as "Milestones Along the Way", "Signposts on the Road", or different combinations thereof.

 

[Kalam]

My God... I don't believe you could have phrased that question more hilariously. You are skillfully ignorant.



Clearly, you were unaware that men and women sit and pass judgment on criminals in the US on a daily basis; this judgment occasionally results in the guilty party being sentenced to death.

the reverse is also true.

I'm sorry; I don't get your meaning. Are you saying that criminals sit and pass judgment on innocents as well? If so, I agree.

Sorry... I'm tired.

 

[Si modo]

What gives any person the right to sit in judgement on anyone else and then decide to murder them.

Virtually every code of law that has ever been written. Ever.

You may find these articles useful:
Judge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jury - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Executioner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All secular, imagine that.

 

[elvis]

My God... I don't believe you could have phrased that question more hilariously. You are skillfully ignorant.



Clearly, you were unaware that men and women sit and pass judgment on criminals in the US on a daily basis; this judgment occasionally results in the guilty party being sentenced to death.

the reverse is also true.

I'm sorry; I don't get your meaning. Are you saying that criminals sit and pass judgment on innocents as well? If so, I agree.

Sorry... I'm tired.

sometimes guilty are released because of the media. Think OJ. and I wasn't very clear.