Buh Bye Obamacare

[Care4all]

But.... people without jobs got insurance. You want to say that was the right direction?

That is simply NOT TRUE iamwhat.

To receive insurance on the Obama Care Health Care exchange you had to be working, and earning at least a specific minimum amount of earnings.... I think it was something like a minimum of +/-$12,000 -$15,000 a year, and if Health Insurance was not available through your employer as a benefit.

People on welfare have MEDICAID for their health insurance.

 

[Bleipriester]

Health care index 2018: If BimboCare ® is gone, will the US fall behind Russia?

Health Care Index by Country 2018

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I don't think things would change much at all. And if there were problems, we should find solutions that are maintainable.

The law was the solution. Prior to the law people were being shipped off to the few hospitals that would deal with them and many died along the way.

We're trying to 'draft' private businesses and force them to function as social safety nets. That invites corruption and further merges corporate and state power.

Yes, that is what we are trying to do with healthcare. That is because we cannot as a nation decide what healthcare is, is it a commodity or a service or is it a right?

We need to be clear about what problems we're trying to solve.

We cannot be clear about the problem till we nail down what healthcare is. Commodities and services have very different sets of rules.

The health care reform movement is a confused collection of competing goals that often directly contradict each other. Are we trying to make sure that poor people can get health care? Then beef up the safety net. Are we trying to do something about out of control health care inflation? They drop the subsidies propping up employer provided health care, as that's been the primary force driving inflation.

If, on the other hand, the goal is simply to centralize control of health care at the federal level - well, no thanks.

That is not my goal, but it is the goal of pretty much everyone in power in DC.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The Republican's signaled what was coming when they refused to repeal the ACA. They further told you what they were doing when they did away with the mandate, that is hastening the collapse. It's all been a game folks.

And when single payer is presented by Trump all his sheep will claim it is the greatest idea ever.

Na, Single payer is unacceptable to anybody with common sense. That’s why Obama loved it

Your savior in the White House is for it, he just lied to you for a little while to get you to support him.

There would be no trump if there was no Obama… Karma is a bitch

Very true. One group had their savior in the white house who failed and now you and yours have your savior in the white house and the outcome will be the same.

 

[dblack]

I don't think things would change much at all. And if there were problems, we should find solutions that are maintainable.

The law was the solution.

No. It was unfunded mandate. It was based the same delusional thinking that produced ACA - namely the conceit that we can implement a social safety nets without raising taxes to pay for them. People seem to think it's right and just for government to just point at businesses and demand that they solve problems for society. WTF?

We need to be clear about what problems we're trying to solve.

We cannot be clear about the problem till we nail down what healthcare is. Commodities and services have very different sets of rules.

Why is that? Are there different rules for an auto parts store vs a mechanic shop? What are you referring to here?

If, on the other hand, the goal is simply to centralize control of health care at the federal level - well, no thanks.

That is not my goal, but it is the goal of pretty much everyone in power in DC.

It's the goal of ACA.

 

[dblack]

The Republican's signaled what was coming when they refused to repeal the ACA. They further told you what they were doing when they did away with the mandate, that is hastening the collapse. It's all been a game folks.

And when single payer is presented by Trump all his sheep will claim it is the greatest idea ever.

Na, Single payer is unacceptable to anybody with common sense. That’s why Obama loved it

Your savior in the White House is for it, he just lied to you for a little while to get you to support him.

There would be no trump if there was no Obama… Karma is a bitch

Very true. One group had their savior in the white house who failed and now you and yours have your savior in the white house and the outcome will be the same.

Likely. At least until we get it through our heads that we need consensus to make these kinds of changes stick.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

No. It was unfunded mandate. It was based the same delusional thinking that produced ACA - namely the conceit that we can implement a social safety nets without raising taxes to pay for them. People seem to think it's right and just for government to just point at businesses and demand that they solve problems for society. WTF?

True, it was an unfunded mandate, but it was still the solution that was put forth to deal with people without funds dying.

Why is that? Are there different rules for an auto parts store vs a mechanic shop? What are you referring to here?

I am referring to the difference between a grocery store and police or fire protection. One is a commodity, one is a service.

The grocery store exchanges a good for money. The police and the fire department do not ask for your credit card when they respond to a crime or a fire.

That is the difference. Right now our healthcare system is split between the rules that govern both things, and that is not sustainable.

It's the goal of ACA.

Yes it was, that is why it was such a piece of crap law. It has made things so much worse, and most people do not even see the parts that are really bad. It has driven hospitals out of business and made changes to the rest so that patient safety is now in jeopardy.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

And when single payer is presented by Trump all his sheep will claim it is the greatest idea ever.

Na, Single payer is unacceptable to anybody with common sense. That’s why Obama loved it

Your savior in the White House is for it, he just lied to you for a little while to get you to support him.

There would be no trump if there was no Obama… Karma is a bitch

Very true. One group had their savior in the white house who failed and now you and yours have your savior in the white house and the outcome will be the same.

Likely. At least until we get it through our heads that we need consensus to make these kinds of changes stick.

consensus is a bad word these days. People get voted out of office for trying to work with the "other side", even though our entire system of government is based upon compromise and will not function correctly without it.

 

[dblack]

No. It was unfunded mandate. It was based the same delusional thinking that produced ACA - namely the conceit that we can implement a social safety nets without raising taxes to pay for them. People seem to think it's right and just for government to just point at businesses and demand that they solve problems for society. WTF?

True, it was an unfunded mandate, but it was still the solution that was put forth to deal with people without funds dying.

It was a bad solution. And, especially if you're going to drag it out as the excuse for even more bad laws, it needs to be repealed.

Why is that? Are there different rules for an auto parts store vs a mechanic shop? What are you referring to here?

I am referring to the difference between a grocery store and police or fire protection. One is a commodity, one is a service.

Well, health care is more like the mechanic shop than police or fire protection - so I guess that makes it a 'commodity' in your nomenclature.

It's the goal of ACA.

Yes it was, that is why it was such a piece of crap law. It has made things so much worse, and most people do not even see the parts that are really bad. It has driven hospitals out of business and made changes to the rest so that patient safety is now in jeopardy.

So what are we arguing about? Let's repeal the mother fucker and fix things in a way that we can all agree to. We need to reject DC's zeal for 'omnibus' legislation and shoot for small targeted improvements that make a real difference. Which brings us back to identifying the problem.

 

[Care4all]

The justice department needs rebuking by congress critters....

They have chosen not to defend a law wrtten by congress and passed by congress and signed by the president of the usa.

by them unconstitutionally.... not defending it, will change the law....the justice dept essentially is MAKING LAW by not defending the law against a suit.

that's utter bull crud!

 

[rightwinger]

Republicans are getting caught with their pants down

Removing healthcare without something to replace it. What are they going to tell people who lose coverage?

 

[rightwinger]

Buh Bye Obamacare


BUH BYE RW CONGRESS CRITTERS

BUH BYE TRUMP

Trump is giving Democrats something to run on in November

Republicans better have a replacement in place by then

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Well, health care is more like the mechanic shop than police or fire protection - so I guess that makes it a 'commodity' in your nomenclature.

It could be either. In many countries it is like police or fire, in others it is more like the mechanic. In our country it is a mix and that is why it is failing.

I do not personally believe those in our country are ready to treat it like the mechanic, if you have no money or no insurance the mechanic tells you to go away. Are the people of this country ready to have ER and hospitals do the same thing?

So what are we arguing about? Let's repeal the mother fucker and fix things in a way that we can all agree to. We need to reject DC's zeal for 'omnibus' legislation and shoot for small targeted improvements that make a real difference. Which brings us back to identifying the problem.

Nobody that is in power wants to fix it, all they have done is actually made it worse so that what they want will be brought about even sooner.

 

[rightwinger]

Republicans are going to learn about......You break it, You bought it

 

[dblack]

It could be either. In many countries it is like police or fire, in others it is more like the mechanic. In our country it is a mix and that is why it is failing.

I do not personally believe those in our country are ready to treat it like the mechanic, if you have no money or no insurance the mechanic tells you to go away. Are the people of this country ready to have ER and hospitals do the same thing?

Forgive my suspicions, but I'm always leery about an argument that starts by redefining terms. What is it you're hoping to inject into the argument by doing so?

I mean, I ask what problems we are trying to solve with health care reform, and you dodge the question by saying we first have to redefine health care. That seems like a shell game to me.

 

[OKTexas]

All this hand wringing is really funny. What you folks fail to understand is this is nothing but a legal issue. Does the US Constitution rule the day or not?

Let's look at a little background here. Normally congress inserts a clause into pretty much every bill that says, if any portion of a law is found unconstitutional, that portion of the law can be severed form the law and the remainder would still stand. Well the commiecrats in their zeal to pass this law, failed to include that technical provision.

As I have contended form day one, the moment any portion of the law was found unconstitutional, the law in its entirety should have been declared as unconstitutional and returned to congress. The Roberts court ignored this when they originally found several portions of the the law unconstitutional and allowed the remainder of the law to stand with no congressional authorization to do so.

The DOJ is simply saying they will not support a law, that has no severance clause, to be enforced in part without congressional authorization. That's exactly how it's supposed to work.


.

 

[Billy_Kinetta]

The justice department needs rebuking by congress critters....

They have chosen not to defend a law wrtten by congress and passed by congress and signed by the president of the usa.

by them unconstitutionally.... not defending it, will change the law....the justice dept essentially is MAKING LAW by not defending the law against a suit.

that's utter bull crud!

It's already unconstitutional, and was at the time of passage.

That being the case, there's no reason to defend it.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

It could be either. In many countries it is like police or fire, in others it is more like the mechanic. In our country it is a mix and that is why it is failing.

I do not personally believe those in our country are ready to treat it like the mechanic, if you have no money or no insurance the mechanic tells you to go away. Are the people of this country ready to have ER and hospitals do the same thing?

Forgive my suspicions, but I'm always leery about an argument that starts by redefining terms. What is it you're hoping to inject into the argument by doing so?

I mean, I ask what problems we are trying to solve with health care reform, and you dodge the question by saying we first have to redefine health care. That seems like a shell game to me.

The problems with our healthcare system all trace back to the fact we have some hybrid of commodity and service and it will never work. Try running a grocery store or the mechanic that way...some people give them money for their goods and services and some do not..how well will that work? How much more would you grocery store and mechanic have to charge you and me to make up for the people who do not pay?

I am not saying we have to redefine it, I am saying we have to define it, it has to be one or the other or, in my opinion, there is no fixing it.

So, to me the fix is to pick either healthcare is a commodity or it is a service and go forward from there.

 

[dblack]

So, to me the fix is to pick either healthcare is a commodity or it is a service and go forward from there.

Clearly "commodity" and "service" are loaded terms. Can you be more explicit?

 

[healthmyths]

How many are going to lose their insurance?

How many people were actually considered not insurable before ACA due to Pre-existing conditions?
ANSWER:
First.. Let's see what the LYING OBAMA said to get ACA passed with it!

Up to half of all Americans have a pre-existing condition." — Barack Obama on Thursday, September 26th, 2013 in a speech about the Affordable Care Act
Obama says half of Americans have a pre-existing condition

FACTS folks: Half of All Americans would have been 160 million. Right?
The Obama administration even put out a report titled
“At Risk: Pre-Existing Conditions Could Affect 1 in 2 Americans: 129 Million Could Be Denied Affordable Coverage Without Health Reform."

WELL right away that is a bald face lie BECAUSE under employer insurance there are no PRE-EXISTING conditions!!!

FACT is it affected less then 22 million i.e. 7% that had private health insurance...

BUT WAIT how many people were refused health insurance due to Pre-existing conditions?

A total of LESS THEN 1.5 million Americans who were denied health insurance or paid higher premiums due to pre-existing conditions.
Obama's Pre-existing Conditions Whopper

AND when ACA came into being and supposedly eliminated the "pre-existing conditions"???

Now under Obamacare HOW many people of those millions with Pre-existing conditions were covered?
Pre-existing Condition Insurance Program (PCIP) was operational in all 50 states by the fall of 2010.
By late 2012, just over 100,000 individuals were enrolled and program expenses had consumed nearly half of the $5 billion appropriation.
High-Risk Pools For Uninsurable Individuals

100,000! That's it!
And because these idiots who wrote ACA didn't comprehend the concept of actuarial science, i.e. figuring out risks...
they blew not only out of proportion how many people "MIGHT" be denied... BUT in determining premiums to cover risks i.e. claims...
NOW actuaries had to conclude EVERYONE had a pre-existing conditions. So what happens?
PREMIUMS had to go up! Simply because the insurance companies don't KNOW what the conditions will be and therefore the costs.