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The Wall will not work and cannot be sustained for long after it's been built... you're throwing Good Money after an Unwork-able Idea...Incorrect.Do you understand that you have a responsibility to facilitate good stewardship of the taxpayer's money?...The time for a nuanced discussion of cost benefit on HOW to best stop illegal immigration was back in the 90s. Instead the left choose to shut down serious debate with the Race Card. And both sides used delaying tactics. Now we are going to do EVERYTHING AND DO IT NOW. THe wall. more ICE agents. empowering locals. going after employers. ect. ect.
The Wall represents a solution that is ultimately destined to fail and which cannot be sustained in pepetity.
Rendering the country toxic (financially and socially) to Illegal Aliens will cost far less and CAN be sustained and is a superior solution from a stewardship perspective.
Or have you (collectively, the proponents of The Wall) lost the ability to reason, and conduct the affairs of the Republic responsibly?
If you cannot tolerate discussion of the best way in which to accomplish necessary and common goals, then you will not remain in power very long.
Your choice.
THe failure of stewardship is that we have been allowing opponents to delay action for decades.
Whether smearing good people or quibbling over details of the best possible use of money.
And while that has been going on, people have been paying real life prices for that.
Do it all, do it now.
You describe political cowardice.
That is not the same thing as good stewardship.
You can be both politically courageous and a good steward, if you have the heart and the intellect to both plan and execute effectively.
This is not rocket science.
Is the combination of political courage and good stewardship - to yield a profound, long-term, sustainable solution to accomplish your goals - beyond you?
I do not believe that for a minute.
I can, on the other hand, believe intellectual laziness and emotional short-signtedness.
Not on your part, personally, but collectively - a.k.a. the un-thinking, emoting Group Animal that salivates over simpleton solutions that won't work in the long run.
The Wall will make it harder for illegals to physically enter the country. That is helpful for the long term, quite sustainable goal of controlling immigration.
Then the wall is no cause for concern. If it will do nothing, then you have no reason to oppose it.Every goal that you have in-mind can be accomplished without The Wall, and for much less money and fuss.You should follow your own advice. The wall is "PART" of the whole solution.BuildingHadrian'sTrump's Wall is sheer stupidity...
Especially if you are not going to permanently deploy an entireLegionbrigade of Border Patrol guards to interdict those who go over it or tunnel under it or blast through it...
It's not just about building The Wall...
It's also... even MORE... about SUSTAINABILITY over the course of decades, and effectiveness in accomplishing its goals...
(a.k.a. getting sufficient bang-for-the-buck... a.k.a. good stewardship)...
Think, people... think... and do so strategically, and long-term... not just the short-term tactical (bumper-sticker-slogan caliber) solution that a Wall represents...
You build The Wall, and THEN what?
You spend the next 10 or 20 or 50 years, playing Whack-A-Mole with the thousand-and-one holes cut or blasted into the thing or the ladders thrown over it, across 2,000 miles.
And, in the end, it doesn't work, after all, and you've wasted 100 times more time and money than it originally took to build The Goddamned Wall in the first place.
Is that good stewardship of the taxpayers' money? Is that good stewardship of the Republic's political capital and goodwill amongst its neighbors?
Not if it results in decades of Whack-A-Mole and ultimate failure, it's not.
C'mon, folks, this isn't rocket science.
Want to get rid of the present Invasion Force of 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens?
Make 'em want to leave, under their own power, and at their own expense, without us spending a dime on deportations.
Want to prevent FUTURE waves of Invaders?
Establish conditions sufficiently onerous - financially and socially - to Illegal Aliens, so that they lose interest in coming here, and decide not to bother trying.
How?
1. Nobody works in this country, unless they are a citizen or legal resident; metaphorically crucify any employer who fails to check both incoming and existing employees
2. Nobody buys or leases or rents a residence or real estate (house, townhome, condo, apartment, room, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
3. Nobody buys or leases a vehicle (car, truck, motorcycle, boat, plane, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
4. Nobody opens or maintains a banking or other financial account on-shore unless... ditto re: mechanisms and penalties.
5. Nobody is allowed to wire money out of the country unless... ditto.
6. Nobody is allowed to enroll-in or attend any school or university unless... ditto
7. Nobody is allowed to receive taxpayer-funded social or welfare benefits unless... ditto
8. Nobody is allowed to receive any medical services except for lightweight first-aid or profound life-saving services unless... ditto
There is a price.
That price is a National ID Card standard (mag-stripe and/or embedded chip) which all 50 States would be obliged to conform to, to facilitate interstate commerce and travel.
If you want to do or receive anything in the Laundry List 1-8 (above), you must present your ID card for verification prior to the completion of the transaction or service.
We would need to create a nationwide authentication/validation system similar to those used when somebody runs a credit card prior to completing a sale.
To those who fret about a National ID Card standard...
Even if it's issued by individual States - hell, that's already kinda-sorta happening, every time a merchant runs your credit card, isn't it?
The technology has been there for decades.
And the government would have to pick up the tab for not only the centralized database system but also the state-level start-up projects, and commercial pilot projects.
It would cost billions.
But it seems likely that it would be an order-of-magnitude less expensive thanHadrian'sTrump's Wall.
And it would sure-as-hell be cheaper to SUSTAIN over several decades.
And it would be one helluva-lot more EFFECTIVE and would result in a myriad of side-benefits, with respect to authentication.
It might require that a new and Conservative -leaning Supreme Court overturn one or two of its old rulings related to Illegals using our schools and medical facilities, but, given the likely changes in the composition of the Court, both this year and in the near future, that should not present much of an obstacle.
It would also require the rescission of a few statutes and the crafting of a few others, that would stand the test of scrutiny by a new and Conservative SCOTUS. No problem.
Imagine... if you're an Illegal Alien, and you can't get a job, or buy or rent a house or apartment or car or hold a bank account or wire money home or any of the rest of the things we see on the list 1-8 above...
You're not going to hang around...
You're going to pack your bags, scoop-up the wife and kiddies, and get the hell outta Dodge while the getting is still good, at your own expense, and that, damned quick...
You'll also know that there's no point in coming back without permission... no point in sneaking back across the border... no point in overstaying your visa... you won't bother.
Same goes for others who were thinking about trying to sneak in or obtain a visa and then over-stay... they won't bother... there will be no point in even trying.
It won't even piss off the neighbors all that much; it's one helluva lot more sensible and one helluva lot less insulting than putting-up such a barrier...
And all for a price one helluva lot cheaper than some stupidHadrian'sTrump's Wall that isn't going to work anyway.
Think, people... THINK !!!
Think.......try it sometime.
Then the wall is no cause for concern. If it will do nothing, then you have no reason to oppose it.Every goal that you have in-mind can be accomplished without The Wall, and for much less money and fuss.You should follow your own advice. The wall is "PART" of the whole solution.BuildingHadrian'sTrump's Wall is sheer stupidity...
Especially if you are not going to permanently deploy an entireLegionbrigade of Border Patrol guards to interdict those who go over it or tunnel under it or blast through it...
It's not just about building The Wall...
It's also... even MORE... about SUSTAINABILITY over the course of decades, and effectiveness in accomplishing its goals...
(a.k.a. getting sufficient bang-for-the-buck... a.k.a. good stewardship)...
Think, people... think... and do so strategically, and long-term... not just the short-term tactical (bumper-sticker-slogan caliber) solution that a Wall represents...
You build The Wall, and THEN what?
You spend the next 10 or 20 or 50 years, playing Whack-A-Mole with the thousand-and-one holes cut or blasted into the thing or the ladders thrown over it, across 2,000 miles.
And, in the end, it doesn't work, after all, and you've wasted 100 times more time and money than it originally took to build The Goddamned Wall in the first place.
Is that good stewardship of the taxpayers' money? Is that good stewardship of the Republic's political capital and goodwill amongst its neighbors?
Not if it results in decades of Whack-A-Mole and ultimate failure, it's not.
C'mon, folks, this isn't rocket science.
Want to get rid of the present Invasion Force of 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens?
Make 'em want to leave, under their own power, and at their own expense, without us spending a dime on deportations.
Want to prevent FUTURE waves of Invaders?
Establish conditions sufficiently onerous - financially and socially - to Illegal Aliens, so that they lose interest in coming here, and decide not to bother trying.
How?
1. Nobody works in this country, unless they are a citizen or legal resident; metaphorically crucify any employer who fails to check both incoming and existing employees
2. Nobody buys or leases or rents a residence or real estate (house, townhome, condo, apartment, room, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
3. Nobody buys or leases a vehicle (car, truck, motorcycle, boat, plane, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
4. Nobody opens or maintains a banking or other financial account on-shore unless... ditto re: mechanisms and penalties.
5. Nobody is allowed to wire money out of the country unless... ditto.
6. Nobody is allowed to enroll-in or attend any school or university unless... ditto
7. Nobody is allowed to receive taxpayer-funded social or welfare benefits unless... ditto
8. Nobody is allowed to receive any medical services except for lightweight first-aid or profound life-saving services unless... ditto
There is a price.
That price is a National ID Card standard (mag-stripe and/or embedded chip) which all 50 States would be obliged to conform to, to facilitate interstate commerce and travel.
If you want to do or receive anything in the Laundry List 1-8 (above), you must present your ID card for verification prior to the completion of the transaction or service.
We would need to create a nationwide authentication/validation system similar to those used when somebody runs a credit card prior to completing a sale.
To those who fret about a National ID Card standard...
Even if it's issued by individual States - hell, that's already kinda-sorta happening, every time a merchant runs your credit card, isn't it?
The technology has been there for decades.
And the government would have to pick up the tab for not only the centralized database system but also the state-level start-up projects, and commercial pilot projects.
It would cost billions.
But it seems likely that it would be an order-of-magnitude less expensive thanHadrian'sTrump's Wall.
And it would sure-as-hell be cheaper to SUSTAIN over several decades.
And it would be one helluva-lot more EFFECTIVE and would result in a myriad of side-benefits, with respect to authentication.
It might require that a new and Conservative -leaning Supreme Court overturn one or two of its old rulings related to Illegals using our schools and medical facilities, but, given the likely changes in the composition of the Court, both this year and in the near future, that should not present much of an obstacle.
It would also require the rescission of a few statutes and the crafting of a few others, that would stand the test of scrutiny by a new and Conservative SCOTUS. No problem.
Imagine... if you're an Illegal Alien, and you can't get a job, or buy or rent a house or apartment or car or hold a bank account or wire money home or any of the rest of the things we see on the list 1-8 above...
You're not going to hang around...
You're going to pack your bags, scoop-up the wife and kiddies, and get the hell outta Dodge while the getting is still good, at your own expense, and that, damned quick...
You'll also know that there's no point in coming back without permission... no point in sneaking back across the border... no point in overstaying your visa... you won't bother.
Same goes for others who were thinking about trying to sneak in or obtain a visa and then over-stay... they won't bother... there will be no point in even trying.
It won't even piss off the neighbors all that much; it's one helluva lot more sensible and one helluva lot less insulting than putting-up such a barrier...
And all for a price one helluva lot cheaper than some stupidHadrian'sTrump's Wall that isn't going to work anyway.
Think, people... THINK !!!
Think.......try it sometime.
No. I am concerned because it will cost an enormous amount of money and cannot possibly succeed in its goals. That is a waste of taxpayer money. Poor stewardship.Then the wall is no cause for concern. If it will do nothing, then you have no reason to oppose it.Every goal that you have in-mind can be accomplished without The Wall, and for much less money and fuss.You should follow your own advice. The wall is "PART" of the whole solution.BuildingHadrian'sTrump's Wall is sheer stupidity...
Especially if you are not going to permanently deploy an entireLegionbrigade of Border Patrol guards to interdict those who go over it or tunnel under it or blast through it...
It's not just about building The Wall...
It's also... even MORE... about SUSTAINABILITY over the course of decades, and effectiveness in accomplishing its goals...
(a.k.a. getting sufficient bang-for-the-buck... a.k.a. good stewardship)...
Think, people... think... and do so strategically, and long-term... not just the short-term tactical (bumper-sticker-slogan caliber) solution that a Wall represents...
You build The Wall, and THEN what?
You spend the next 10 or 20 or 50 years, playing Whack-A-Mole with the thousand-and-one holes cut or blasted into the thing or the ladders thrown over it, across 2,000 miles.
And, in the end, it doesn't work, after all, and you've wasted 100 times more time and money than it originally took to build The Goddamned Wall in the first place.
Is that good stewardship of the taxpayers' money? Is that good stewardship of the Republic's political capital and goodwill amongst its neighbors?
Not if it results in decades of Whack-A-Mole and ultimate failure, it's not.
C'mon, folks, this isn't rocket science.
Want to get rid of the present Invasion Force of 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens?
Make 'em want to leave, under their own power, and at their own expense, without us spending a dime on deportations.
Want to prevent FUTURE waves of Invaders?
Establish conditions sufficiently onerous - financially and socially - to Illegal Aliens, so that they lose interest in coming here, and decide not to bother trying.
How?
1. Nobody works in this country, unless they are a citizen or legal resident; metaphorically crucify any employer who fails to check both incoming and existing employees
2. Nobody buys or leases or rents a residence or real estate (house, townhome, condo, apartment, room, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
3. Nobody buys or leases a vehicle (car, truck, motorcycle, boat, plane, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties
4. Nobody opens or maintains a banking or other financial account on-shore unless... ditto re: mechanisms and penalties.
5. Nobody is allowed to wire money out of the country unless... ditto.
6. Nobody is allowed to enroll-in or attend any school or university unless... ditto
7. Nobody is allowed to receive taxpayer-funded social or welfare benefits unless... ditto
8. Nobody is allowed to receive any medical services except for lightweight first-aid or profound life-saving services unless... ditto
There is a price.
That price is a National ID Card standard (mag-stripe and/or embedded chip) which all 50 States would be obliged to conform to, to facilitate interstate commerce and travel.
If you want to do or receive anything in the Laundry List 1-8 (above), you must present your ID card for verification prior to the completion of the transaction or service.
We would need to create a nationwide authentication/validation system similar to those used when somebody runs a credit card prior to completing a sale.
To those who fret about a National ID Card standard...
Even if it's issued by individual States - hell, that's already kinda-sorta happening, every time a merchant runs your credit card, isn't it?
The technology has been there for decades.
And the government would have to pick up the tab for not only the centralized database system but also the state-level start-up projects, and commercial pilot projects.
It would cost billions.
But it seems likely that it would be an order-of-magnitude less expensive thanHadrian'sTrump's Wall.
And it would sure-as-hell be cheaper to SUSTAIN over several decades.
And it would be one helluva-lot more EFFECTIVE and would result in a myriad of side-benefits, with respect to authentication.
It might require that a new and Conservative -leaning Supreme Court overturn one or two of its old rulings related to Illegals using our schools and medical facilities, but, given the likely changes in the composition of the Court, both this year and in the near future, that should not present much of an obstacle.
It would also require the rescission of a few statutes and the crafting of a few others, that would stand the test of scrutiny by a new and Conservative SCOTUS. No problem.
Imagine... if you're an Illegal Alien, and you can't get a job, or buy or rent a house or apartment or car or hold a bank account or wire money home or any of the rest of the things we see on the list 1-8 above...
You're not going to hang around...
You're going to pack your bags, scoop-up the wife and kiddies, and get the hell outta Dodge while the getting is still good, at your own expense, and that, damned quick...
You'll also know that there's no point in coming back without permission... no point in sneaking back across the border... no point in overstaying your visa... you won't bother.
Same goes for others who were thinking about trying to sneak in or obtain a visa and then over-stay... they won't bother... there will be no point in even trying.
It won't even piss off the neighbors all that much; it's one helluva lot more sensible and one helluva lot less insulting than putting-up such a barrier...
And all for a price one helluva lot cheaper than some stupidHadrian'sTrump's Wall that isn't going to work anyway.
Think, people... THINK !!!
Think.......try it sometime.
There is no US law that makes entering Mexico without permission illegal just as there is no Mexican law that makes it illegal for their people to enter the US. It is the responsibility of each country to protect their boarders. Trying to extort money out the Mexican government because we have failed to protect our boarder is just plain wrong. All of Trump's raving about Mexican rapist, murders, and drug dealers crossing the boarder does not alter the fact that it's our job to stop them, not Mexico. Trump is just trying to raise the level of hate between Americans and Mexicans to get support for his wall.Keep in mind it is not the goverment of Mexico that violates US Sovereignty, nor is it the 120 million people that live there and never cross our boarder illegally.I agree. However, it should not be the responsibility of Mexico to secure the US boarder just because the US is either too inept or chooses not to spend the money to do so.I said it was the latest plan not the only plan. To my knowledge Trump has not put forward an alternate plan other than the Mexican goverment forking over billions of dollars which seems a bit unlikely.
However, the GOP has a plan in which firms that import goods or services from abroad would not be able to count those costs against their overall profits. In effect, corporations would be paying taxes on the value of anything they buy from abroad. This is a rather clever sleight of hand that would allow Trump to claim Mexico is paying for the wall when in reality American corporations and thus consumers would be.
I think what the Trump administration is ignoring is that while they make plans for their great beautiful 2000 mile wall, the Mexican Peso is falling like a rock. The knee jerk reaction is of course, so what. However, the falling value of the peso and thus the rise in value of the US dollar is very likely to stem the tide of the voluntary return of illegal immigrants back to Mexico. This has always been a key part of Trump's deportation plan. As the Mexican economy weakens and tens of millions of Mexicans head north, Trump's beautiful peaceful migration of illegal immigrants south, may well turn into something quite different.
Trump’s spokesman’s ‘easy way’ to make Mexico pay for the wall has been revealed
That's great, but it is not the responsibility of the US - or its taxpayers like me - to provide an economy for the mass poor of mexico to take advantage of. Its time for the Mexican and central american governments to start building functional societies and not depend upon the hated white gringo america to support them.
Their actions, such as choosing to violate our Sovereignty, is their responsibility.
Just as the US is not responsible for acts of of a small percent of our citizens abroad, neither is Mexico. I really don't understand why so many people think it's Mexico's responsibility to secure our boarders. Are we really that inept that we need their help?
If our citizens were flowing into Mexico, against the wishes of Mexico, their government would complain and our government would take steps to address the problem.
Mexico is responsible for their actions.
No one in congress, not even republicans are likely to make such stupid racist statements with absolutely no real data to back it up. The anchor baby argument has been disapprove so many times, it's not worth discussing.Trump will face a backlash from congress who has never been very receptive to building a wall. Now if there was an iron clad reimbursement program, I think most republicans would support it. However with a program that Republicans have estimated to cost 15 to 25 billion that could possibly run twice that, it would be a hard sell to congress without guaranteed reimbursement.There are ways to make Mexico pay. I'm sure Trump will explore the options. But that being said, at this point i just want it done. Build the wall, secure the border. Do whatever it takes to get it done. I don't wanna hear anymore excuses. If Trump puts in the effort to rebuild Obama's dismantled Immigration System, he'll always have my support.
I suspect the pitch to congress will sound something like this:
President Trump - "A wall will cost 15-25 billion, the large majority being a one time expense...another 10 million Guadalupe's and Pedro's dropping anchor babies at rodents pace and producing more of their taxpayer dependent same will cost American taxpayers far more over time and the related expenses are never ending. This is simple arithmetic people all you have to do is find your ball sack for once and do the right thing...FINALLY!"
All you lefties are backing off your it won't get built mantra and shifting to a you'll pay for it mantra.
I don't care. Build it.
Whether Mexico had welcomed US settlers to Texas or not, it would have made no difference because the US settlers were never going be loyal to Mexico.Yep. After they fucked up by allowing immigration.
Agreed. After the fact is too late. Maybe Trump needs to build a time machine.
There is no doubt about it. We fucked up BIG TIME, just like the Mexicans in 1824.
It's still in play. If Mexico had accepted reality, and welcomed the immigrants as part of their country, Texas might still be theirs. How would Mexico's history be different if still had Texas? No way to know for sure, but it seems likely they'd be much better off.
What are we prepared to lose in our fight with reality?
No one in congress, not even republicans are likely to make such stupid racist statements with absolutely no real data to back it up. The anchor baby argument has been disapprove so many times, it's not worth discussing.Trump will face a backlash from congress who has never been very receptive to building a wall. Now if there was an iron clad reimbursement program, I think most republicans would support it. However with a program that Republicans have estimated to cost 15 to 25 billion that could possibly run twice that, it would be a hard sell to congress without guaranteed reimbursement.There are ways to make Mexico pay. I'm sure Trump will explore the options. But that being said, at this point i just want it done. Build the wall, secure the border. Do whatever it takes to get it done. I don't wanna hear anymore excuses. If Trump puts in the effort to rebuild Obama's dismantled Immigration System, he'll always have my support.
I suspect the pitch to congress will sound something like this:
President Trump - "A wall will cost 15-25 billion, the large majority being a one time expense...another 10 million Guadalupe's and Pedro's dropping anchor babies at rodents pace and producing more of their taxpayer dependent same will cost American taxpayers far more over time and the related expenses are never ending. This is simple arithmetic people all you have to do is find your ball sack for once and do the right thing...FINALLY!"
All you lefties are backing off your it won't get built mantra and shifting to a you'll pay for it mantra.
I don't care. Build it.
You build a 1000 mile wall there will be a 1000 holes and tunnels underneath it as soon as it's built. What they can see, can and will always be compromised. Technology--motion detectors, more border patrol stations and border patrol are the only solution.
800 yard tunnel found
Huge US-Mexico drugs tunnel found in San Diego - BBC News
Drug lords will spend millions on these tunnels.
Personally I think some rope, pins and caribeaners would be a lot easier. They could haul up and down the other side about 100 people every half hour. Hammer drill with a generator can put a hole in the wall big enough for a truck to drive through. Metal? They'll bring torches and saw zaws. They'll build stairs on their side of wall and lower down on the other side. It's laughable, the things I know they're going to do with this wall.
A wall is a total waste of billions of tax payer dollars.
Our best result was when G.W. Bush put the national guard on the border. Attempted crossing's dropped by a whopping 67% simply because they knew they were there.
There is another difference.It really is like the Berlin Wall - except with West Germans building the wall.
Now, now, don't confuse a Libertarian with FACTS.There is another difference.It really is like the Berlin Wall - except with West Germans building the wall.
East Germany (goaded by their Soviet masters) built their Wall to keep their own people IN.
Trump's Wall would be built to keep OTHER people OUT.
The difference is a HUGE one.
Our OWN people can come and go as they please.
You might get shot for trying to sneak IN, but you won't get shot for trying to sneak OUT - as a matter of fact, if you want out, you can go, at any time.
( and this from somebody who thinks the wall is a stupid and ineffective bumper-sticker-slogan idea )
All you lefties are backing off your it won't get built mantra and shifting to a you'll pay for it mantra.
I don't care. Build it.
You build a 1000 mile wall there will be a 1000 holes and tunnels underneath it as soon as it's built. What they can see, can and will always be compromised. Technology--motion detectors, more border patrol stations and border patrol are the only solution.
800 yard tunnel found
Huge US-Mexico drugs tunnel found in San Diego - BBC News
Drug lords will spend millions on these tunnels.
Personally I think some rope, pins and caribeaners would be a lot easier. They could haul up and down the other side about 100 people every half hour. Hammer drill with a generator can put a hole in the wall big enough for a truck to drive through. Metal? They'll bring torches and saw zaws. They'll build stairs on their side of wall and lower down on the other side. It's laughable, the things I know they're going to do with this wall.
A wall is a total waste of billions of tax payer dollars.
Our best result was when G.W. Bush put the national guard on the border. Attempted crossing's dropped by a whopping 67% simply because they knew they were there.
YOU especially can FUCK OFF and go suck some Mexican & Islamic cock.
I HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR YOU SO PLEASE STOP QUOTING ME YA FRAUD
