BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

[Kondor3]

Let's try some reading comprehension.

What I am obviously not saying:
"The Berlin Wall was meant to keep fascists out of East Germany."

What anyone with half a brain can see that I'm actually saying:
East Germany, like the Trump administration re: the wall on the Mexican border, claimed that their wall was meant to keep out undesirables. Obviously East Germany's stated reason for the wall was nonsense, but so might Trump's be.

Oh make no mistake, the wall is definitely needed to keep out "undesirables". No one doing well in Mexico is trying to get here. We get the most desperate of desperate. Uneducated, third world types with no moral compass, the lowest grade of human is what we get. We get the type that just can't make it in our system without a lifelong hand holding from government. They can't qualify to hold jobs that pay enough for their families of seven that are forever growing due to ignorance.
This is a no-brainer for a third grader...All people have to do is pull their head out of their utopian ass for a second to see it.

Alternatively we could just stop offering welfare completely, not build a wall, and save money all around.

Welfare is another subject.
We spend 113 billion on illegals every year...the cost to build the wall and heavily defend it doesn't get anywhere close to that figure. It's a retarded debate to spend any time on.

And if it can be shown that a change of approach, costing far less than a wall, will work far better, and that it can be sustained far longer, and for far less money?

Is that, too, unworthy of debate?

I'd like to hear it....what do have in mind?

Already outlined earlier in this thread... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

 

[BrokeLoser]

Oh make no mistake, the wall is definitely needed to keep out "undesirables". No one doing well in Mexico is trying to get here. We get the most desperate of desperate. Uneducated, third world types with no moral compass, the lowest grade of human is what we get. We get the type that just can't make it in our system without a lifelong hand holding from government. They can't qualify to hold jobs that pay enough for their families of seven that are forever growing due to ignorance.
This is a no-brainer for a third grader...All people have to do is pull their head out of their utopian ass for a second to see it.

Alternatively we could just stop offering welfare completely, not build a wall, and save money all around.

Welfare is another subject.
We spend 113 billion on illegals every year...the cost to build the wall and heavily defend it doesn't get anywhere close to that figure. It's a retarded debate to spend any time on.

And if it can be shown that a change of approach, costing far less than a wall, will work far better, and that it can be sustained far longer, and for far less money?

Is that, too, unworthy of debate?

I'd like to hear it....what do have in mind?

Already outlined... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

I think one of us are confused...I'm all for the wall...you?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let's try some reading comprehension.

What I am obviously not saying:
"The Berlin Wall was meant to keep fascists out of East Germany."

What anyone with half a brain can see that I'm actually saying:
East Germany, like the Trump administration re: the wall on the Mexican border, claimed that their wall was meant to keep out undesirables. Obviously East Germany's stated reason for the wall was nonsense, but so might Trump's be.

Trump wants to build a wall to keep Americans IN ?

Tell us all about it...

Maybe. I certainly don't trust politicians, and I'm not sure why conservatives suddenly do. Oh, wait, yes I do.

Trump was never a politician

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

 

[Flopper]

Building Hadrian's Trump's Wall is sheer stupidity...

Especially if you are not going to permanently deploy an entire Legion brigade of Border Patrol guards to interdict those who go over it or tunnel under it or blast through it...

It's not just about building The Wall...

It's also... even MORE... about SUSTAINABILITY over the course of decades, and effectiveness in accomplishing its goals...

(a.k.a. getting sufficient bang-for-the-buck... a.k.a. good stewardship)...

Think, people... think... and do so strategically, and long-term... not just the short-term tactical (bumper-sticker-slogan caliber) solution that a Wall represents...

You build The Wall, and THEN what?

You spend the next 10 or 20 or 50 years, playing Whack-A-Mole with the thousand-and-one holes cut or blasted into the thing or the ladders thrown over it, across 2,000 miles.

And, in the end, it doesn't work, after all, and you've wasted 100 times more time and money than it originally took to build The Goddamned Wall in the first place.

Is that good stewardship of the taxpayers' money? Is that good stewardship of the Republic's political capital and goodwill amongst its neighbors?

Not if it results in decades of Whack-A-Mole and ultimate failure, it's not.

C'mon, folks, this isn't rocket science.

Want to get rid of the present Invasion Force of 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens?

Make 'em want to leave, under their own power, and at their own expense, without us spending a dime on deportations.

Want to prevent FUTURE waves of Invaders?

Establish conditions sufficiently onerous - financially and socially - to Illegal Aliens, so that they lose interest in coming here, and decide not to bother trying.

How?

1. Nobody works in this country, unless they are a citizen or legal resident; metaphorically crucify any employer who fails to check both incoming and existing employees

2. Nobody buys or leases or rents a residence or real estate (house, townhome, condo, apartment, room, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties

3. Nobody buys or leases a vehicle (car, truck, motorcycle, boat, plane, whatever) unless... same mechanism and penalties

4. Nobody opens or maintains a banking or other financial account on-shore unless... ditto re: mechanisms and penalties.

5. Nobody is allowed to wire money out of the country unless... ditto.

6. Nobody is allowed to enroll-in or attend any school or university unless... ditto

7. Nobody is allowed to receive taxpayer-funded social or welfare benefits unless... ditto

8. Nobody is allowed to receive any medical services except for lightweight first-aid or profound life-saving services unless... ditto

There is a price.

That price is a National ID Card standard (mag-stripe and/or embedded chip) which all 50 States would be obliged to conform to, to facilitate interstate commerce and travel.

If you want to do or receive anything in the Laundry List 1-8 (above), you must present your ID card for verification prior to the completion of the transaction or service.

We would need to create a nationwide authentication/validation system similar to those used when somebody runs a credit card prior to completing a sale.

To those who fret about a National ID Card standard...

Even if it's issued by individual States - hell, that's already kinda-sorta happening, every time a merchant runs your credit card, isn't it?

The technology has been there for decades.

And the government would have to pick up the tab for not only the centralized database system but also the state-level start-up projects, and commercial pilot projects.

It would cost billions.

But it seems likely that it would be an order-of-magnitude less expensive than Hadrian's Trump's Wall.

And it would sure-as-hell be cheaper to SUSTAIN over several decades.

And it would be one helluva-lot more EFFECTIVE and would result in a myriad of side-benefits, with respect to authentication.

It might require that a new and Conservative -leaning Supreme Court overturn one or two of its old rulings related to Illegals using our schools and medical facilities, but, given the likely changes in the composition of the Court, both this year and in the near future, that should not present much of an obstacle.

It would also require the rescission of a few statutes and the crafting of a few others, that would stand the test of scrutiny by a new and Conservative SCOTUS. No problem.

Imagine... if you're an Illegal Alien, and you can't get a job, or buy or rent a house or apartment or car or hold a bank account or wire money home or any of the rest of the things we see on the list 1-8 above...

You're not going to hang around...

You're going to pack your bags, scoop-up the wife and kiddies, and get the hell outta Dodge while the getting is still good, at your own expense, and that, damned quick...

You'll also know that there's no point in coming back without permission... no point in sneaking back across the border... no point in overstaying your visa... you won't bother.

Same goes for others who were thinking about trying to sneak in or obtain a visa and then over-stay... they won't bother... there will be no point in even trying.

It won't even piss off the neighbors all that much; it's one helluva lot more sensible and one helluva lot less insulting than putting-up such a barrier...

And all for a price one helluva lot cheaper than some stupid Hadrian's Trump's Wall that isn't going to work anyway.

Think, people... THINK !!!

You should follow your own advice. The wall is "PART" of the whole solution.

Think.......try it sometime.

Every goal that you have in-mind can be accomplished without The Wall, and for much less money and fuss.

Then the wall is no cause for concern. If it will do nothing, then you have no reason to oppose it.

Oh, the wall will do a lot, most of it bad. It will create major problems concerning water rights, become and environmental and human rights disaster and an eye sore for many small towns and villages on both sides of the boarder.

I doubt Trump will be so foolish as to build a wall in very remote areas. Border walls work in densely populated areas such as Israel's wall in the West Bank where slowing down a person trying to illegally enter by five or 10 minutes can make a difference to border patrol. But when the migrant trying to enter is traveling over remote mountains and deserts for three days, using a fence or wall to slow them down by a few minutes doesn't have the same effect. In fact, it borders on the trivial.

The number of illegal crossings a day over the 2000 mile boarder average out to be one person a day for every 4 miles. However most the crossing are not in remote areas. In some places where there will be tens of millions of dollars in walls, there would not be an attempted crossing once a month.

No stand-up American who can understand basic math will care about the "tens of millions of dollars" being spent on the wall in remote areas since we will be saving up to 113 billion per year moving forward.
(You have conveniently missed my previous post)
"It's not worth discussing" because the truth hurts....is that what you really meant? Come on bud...stop with the semantics...pull your head out of your ass for just one minute and don't lie to yourself. The estimated costs to build the wall pales in comparison to the estimated costs related to harboring illegals (113 billion PER YEAR) and anyone with a third grade education knows it....What has been disapproved about anchor babies? I'd like to hear the babble."

The point is building a wall will create huge problems with our relationship with Mexico, who we need as a trading partner while doing little to stop illegal entry. It's creating a huge division in America in a time when we need to be working together.

While the wall is intended to stop illegal immigration, it will increase it as millions of poor Mexicans cross our borders while the wall is being built. The falling peso, rising unemployment, and threats of a trade war is already taking a toll on jobs in Mexico. As jobs for the poor decrease, migration north will increase substantially just as it has happen time after time.

The ease of going over, around, and under a wall in a thousand mile of remote desert and mountains makes the project nearly useless. Walls are effective in densely populated areas, not in remote areas.

Trump describes the building the wall as fast, easy, and beautiful. That simply is not realistic. No one knows what the wall will cost. There have been estimates from 15 to 25 billion but like most government projects it could easily double which seems quite likely when you consider the obstacles. For example a thousand miles of wall that run across hundreds of ranches, farms, villages, and private homes will have to be acquired by purchase and long costly court legal battles. In addition there is tribal land which can be a huge legal challenge. In many places the wall would have to be build walls in places where you just don't built walls through gorges, rivers, and mountainous terrain.

It took the goverment 7 years to build a 700 miles fence on the boarder. This project could easily last 10 to 15 years and that brings into question as to what would be it's future with a democratic congress or president.

Trump is simply going about solving the country's illegal immigration problem the wrong way. Legal defenses funds to defend migrants from deportations are popping up in cities around the country. LA has just proposed a 10 million dollar fund. Federal judges in 4 states have blocked the key provisions in Trump's ban on Muslims entering the country. In the big cities in both red and blue states where Trump will need the most help in removing illegal immigrants, his plans has met with lukewarm support to outright hostility. Some of our largest cities have said they would rather lose federal funds than submit to Trump's orders.

Trump says he loves a good fight. Well, it looks like he's going to get one. Unfortunately, there will be no winners in this fight.

 

[Kondor3]

Alternatively we could just stop offering welfare completely, not build a wall, and save money all around.

Welfare is another subject.
We spend 113 billion on illegals every year...the cost to build the wall and heavily defend it doesn't get anywhere close to that figure. It's a retarded debate to spend any time on.

And if it can be shown that a change of approach, costing far less than a wall, will work far better, and that it can be sustained far longer, and for far less money?

Is that, too, unworthy of debate?

I'd like to hear it....what do have in mind?

Already outlined... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

I think one of us are confused...I'm all for the wall...you?

Nope...

I've already outlined my position in this thread... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

The Wall is a dumb idea...

I want the Illegals gone myself, and I don't want others coming in their place...

But a Wall is not the way to accomplish that... not even a sensible PART of a viable and sustainable solution... throws good money after bad.

 

[Indeependent]

You should follow your own advice. The wall is "PART" of the whole solution.

Think.......try it sometime.

Every goal that you have in-mind can be accomplished without The Wall, and for much less money and fuss.

Then the wall is no cause for concern. If it will do nothing, then you have no reason to oppose it.

Oh, the wall will do a lot, most of it bad. It will create major problems concerning water rights, become and environmental and human rights disaster and an eye sore for many small towns and villages on both sides of the boarder.

I doubt Trump will be so foolish as to build a wall in very remote areas. Border walls work in densely populated areas such as Israel's wall in the West Bank where slowing down a person trying to illegally enter by five or 10 minutes can make a difference to border patrol. But when the migrant trying to enter is traveling over remote mountains and deserts for three days, using a fence or wall to slow them down by a few minutes doesn't have the same effect. In fact, it borders on the trivial.

The number of illegal crossings a day over the 2000 mile boarder average out to be one person a day for every 4 miles. However most the crossing are not in remote areas. In some places where there will be tens of millions of dollars in walls, there would not be an attempted crossing once a month.

No stand-up American who can understand basic math will care about the "tens of millions of dollars" being spent on the wall in remote areas since we will be saving up to 113 billion per year moving forward.
(You have conveniently missed my previous post)
"It's not worth discussing" because the truth hurts....is that what you really meant? Come on bud...stop with the semantics...pull your head out of your ass for just one minute and don't lie to yourself. The estimated costs to build the wall pales in comparison to the estimated costs related to harboring illegals (113 billion PER YEAR) and anyone with a third grade education knows it....What has been disapproved about anchor babies? I'd like to hear the babble."

The point is building a wall will create huge problems with our relationship with Mexico, who we need as a trading partner while doing little to stop illegal entry. It's creating a huge division in America in a time when we need to be working together.

While the wall is intended to stop illegal immigration, it will increase it as millions of poor Mexicans cross our borders while the wall is being built. The falling peso, rising unemployment, and threats of a trade war is already taking a toll on jobs in Mexico. As jobs for the poor decrease, migration north will increase substantially just as it has happen time after time.

The ease of going over, around, and under a wall in a thousand mile of remote desert and mountains makes the project nearly useless. Walls are effective in densely populated areas, not in remote areas.

Trump describes the building the wall as fast, easy, and beautiful. That simply is not realistic. No one knows what the wall will cost. There have been estimates from 15 to 25 billion but like most government projects it could easily double which seems quite likely when you consider the obstacles. For example a thousand miles of wall that run across hundreds of ranches, farms, villages, and private homes will have to be acquired by purchase and long costly court legal battles. In addition there is tribal land which can be a huge legal challenge. In many places the wall would have to be build walls in places where you just don't built walls through gorges, rivers, and mountainous terrain.

It took the goverment 7 years to build a 700 miles fence on the boarder. This project could easily last 10 to 15 years and that brings into question as to what would be it's future with a democratic congress or president.

Trump is simply going about solving the country's illegal immigration problem the wrong way. Legal defenses funds to defend migrants from deportations are popping up in cities around the country. LA has just proposed a 10 million dollar fund. Federal judges in 4 states have blocked the key provisions in Trump's ban on Muslims entering the country. In the big cities in both red and blue states where Trump will need the most help in removing illegal immigrants, his plans has met with lukewarm support to outright hostility. Some of our largest cities have said they would rather lose federal funds than submit to Trump's orders.

Trump says he loves a good fight. Well, it looks like he's going to get one. Unfortunately, there will be no winners in this fight.

Uh huh...nope!

 

[BrokeLoser]

Trump wants to build a wall to keep Americans IN ?

Tell us all about it...

Maybe. I certainly don't trust politicians, and I'm not sure why conservatives suddenly do. Oh, wait, yes I do.

Trump was never a politician

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

NEGATIVE!
He's a masterful problem solver playing the role of politician.
A politician finds the most crooked and distorted route between point A and point B
A problem solver finds the shortest straightest route from point A to point B

You're welcome for the free lesson.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Trump wants to build a wall to keep Americans IN ?

Tell us all about it...

Maybe. I certainly don't trust politicians, and I'm not sure why conservatives suddenly do. Oh, wait, yes I do.

Trump was never a politician

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

 

[BrokeLoser]

Welfare is another subject.
We spend 113 billion on illegals every year...the cost to build the wall and heavily defend it doesn't get anywhere close to that figure. It's a retarded debate to spend any time on.

And if it can be shown that a change of approach, costing far less than a wall, will work far better, and that it can be sustained far longer, and for far less money?

Is that, too, unworthy of debate?

I'd like to hear it....what do have in mind?

Already outlined... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

I think one of us are confused...I'm all for the wall...you?

Nope...

I've already outlined my position in this thread... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

The Wall is a dumb idea...

I want the Illegals gone myself, and I don't want others coming in their place...

But a Wall is not the way to accomplish that... not even a sensible PART of a viable and sustainable solution... throws good money after bad.

Well, I respectfully disagree. The wall has been played way up as the end all solution in the fight to close our border. The wall is just a small piece of the puzzle in the fight. Building the wall, aggressively defending the wall, removing any and all incentives for illegals here, treating illegals here like the criminals they are and holding the Mexican government responsible are all pieces in the puzzle...a few and not all of the pieces. All this combined compares like a nat on an elephants ass when you look at the 113 billion a year spent on illegals now and consider the decay of our society they cause by settling here. I don't give a shit how cruel that sounds!

 

[Flopper]

I agree. However, it should not be the responsibility of Mexico to secure the US boarder just because the US is either too inept or chooses not to spend the money to do so.

Their actions, such as choosing to violate our Sovereignty, is their responsibility.

Keep in mind it is not the goverment of Mexico that violates US Sovereignty, nor is it the 120 million people that live there and never cross our boarder illegally.

Just as the US is not responsible for acts of of a small percent of our citizens abroad, neither is Mexico. I really don't understand why so many people think it's Mexico's responsibility to secure our boarders. Are we really that inept that we need their help?

If our citizens were flowing into Mexico, against the wishes of Mexico, their government would complain and our government would take steps to address the problem.

Mexico is responsible for their actions.

There is no US law that makes entering Mexico without permission illegal just as there is no Mexican law that makes it illegal for their people to enter the US. It is the responsibility of each country to protect their boarders. Trying to extort money out the Mexican government because we have failed to protect our boarder is just plain wrong. All of Trump's raving about Mexican rapist, murders, and drug dealers crossing the boarder does not alter the fact that it's our job to stop them, not Mexico. Trump is just trying to raise the level of hate between Americans and Mexicans to get support for his wall.

If your neighbor leaves his door open and you walk in, and help yourself to his stuff, he might be stupid, but you are still a trespasser and a thief.

Save your "hate" talk. We have a real beef with our crappy neighbor to the South. Don't be one of those assholes who try to shut down debate on the issue by race baiting.

It was presidential candidate Trump that declared war on Mexico with his racial charged hate filed campaign rhetoric.
“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

First off, the Mexican goverment is not sending anyone to this country and they are not responsibly for the security of our boarders nor the actions of their people in the US.

In 2015, an estimated 175,000 people illegally crossed our southern boarder and of those nearly 40% were not even Mexican.

There are 122 million people live in Mexico. For the most part, they are a hard working proud people with families that would never consider abandoning their country and home to illegally enter the US. Less than .5% of the Mexican population illegally cross our boarder. No wonder so many Mexicans are insulted by Trump's hate filled racist remarks.

If the US leaves it's door open and Mexicans and other Latin Americas enter, is Mexico responsible? No, because Mexico like the US is not responsible for what their people do outside of their country. It is the responsibility of the US to protect it's boarders and trying to extort money from Mexico to do so is just plain wrong. It is a clear admission to the world that the US is not capable of protecting it's own borders.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Maybe. I certainly don't trust politicians, and I'm not sure why conservatives suddenly do. Oh, wait, yes I do.

Trump was never a politician

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Trump was never a politician

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

This is the grandest scam in history... Trump in one week destroyed the mesiah legacy
...he brought the power back where it belongs.. To the people..
What Are you so afraid of?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Weird. I'm pretty sure he just spent well over a year campaigning for a political office and won. That would make him a politician.

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

This is the grandest scam in history... Trump in one week destroyed the mesiah legacy
...he brought the power back where it belongs.. To the people..
What Are you so afraid of?

That's what we call delusional.

 

[dblack]

Populists are politicians too.

The most pollticiany of politicians.

 

[Indeependent]

Let's count how many colonists were taken in as refugees to Syria.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Do you think he really thought he would win?

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

This is the grandest scam in history... Trump in one week destroyed the mesiah legacy
...he brought the power back where it belongs.. To the people..
What Are you so afraid of?

That's what we call delusional.

So in your world of an egotistical asshole you thought Obama did the right thing?

Even killing them?

Enough is enough

 

[Wyatt earp]

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

This is the grandest scam in history... Trump in one week destroyed the mesiah legacy
...he brought the power back where it belongs.. To the people..
What Are you so afraid of?

That's what we call delusional.

So in your world of an egotistical asshole you thought Obama did the right thing?

Even killing them?

Enough is enough

We have had enough

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Do I think the textbook definition of a narcissist thought he would win? I'd say it's a fair bet that he did. Maybe not, but it's irrelevant. He ran a political campaign, thus he is a politician.

But I say no .trump didn't run a political campaign.. He ran as a populist.. Like Eisenhower

Populists are politicians too.

This is the grandest scam in history... Trump in one week destroyed the mesiah legacy
...he brought the power back where it belongs.. To the people..
What Are you so afraid of?

That's what we call delusional.

So in your world of an egotistical asshole you thought Obama did the right thing?

Even killing them?

Enough is enough

And now you're imagining arguments I've never made.

 

[Kondor3]

And if it can be shown that a change of approach, costing far less than a wall, will work far better, and that it can be sustained far longer, and for far less money?

Is that, too, unworthy of debate?

I'd like to hear it....what do have in mind?

Already outlined... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

I think one of us are confused...I'm all for the wall...you?

Nope...

I've already outlined my position in this thread... BUILD THE WALL. I don't give a damn who pays for it. Me, you or the man on the moon. Build it.

The Wall is a dumb idea...

I want the Illegals gone myself, and I don't want others coming in their place...

But a Wall is not the way to accomplish that... not even a sensible PART of a viable and sustainable solution... throws good money after bad.

Well, I respectfully disagree. The wall has been played way up as the end all solution in the fight to close our border. The wall is just a small piece of the puzzle in the fight. Building the wall, aggressively defending the wall, removing any and all incentives for illegals here, treating illegals here like the criminals they are and holding the Mexican government responsible are all pieces in the puzzle...a few and not all of the pieces. All this combined compares like a nat on an elephants ass when you look at the 113 billion a year spent on illegals now and consider the decay of our society they cause by settling here. I don't give a shit how cruel that sounds!

We are in agreement in all aspects EXCEPT for the Wall part of your observation...

 

[Flopper]

Except as I posted before, the official rationale from East Germany in building the wall was to keep out fascists. In other words, they were saying the same thing Trump is saying now.

The official rationale was horseshit.

Anyone believing the East German government - even at a distance of 40 or 50 years - is not a serious discussion partner.

Let's try some reading comprehension.

What I am obviously not saying:
"The Berlin Wall was meant to keep fascists out of East Germany."

What anyone with half a brain can see that I'm actually saying:
East Germany, like the Trump administration re: the wall on the Mexican border, claimed that their wall was meant to keep out undesirables. Obviously East Germany's stated reason for the wall was nonsense, but so might Trump's be.

Oh make no mistake, the wall is definitely needed to keep out "undesirables". No one doing well in Mexico is trying to get here. We get the most desperate of desperate. Uneducated, third world types with no moral compass, the lowest grade of human is what we get. We get the type that just can't make it in our system without a lifelong hand holding from government. They can't qualify to hold jobs that pay enough for their families of seven that are forever growing due to ignorance.
This is a no-brainer for a third grader...All people have to do is pull their head out of their utopian ass for a second to see it.

Alternatively we could just stop offering welfare completely, not build a wall, and save money all around.

Welfare is another subject.
We spend 113 billion on illegals every year...the cost to build the wall and heavily defend it doesn't get anywhere close to that figure. It's a retarded debate to spend any time on.

You have said several times that illegals are costing the country 113 billion dollars so I decided to research the figure.

This figure comes from a report done by FAIR,
Federation for American Immigration Reform, (link below). They advocate changes in immigration policy which would reduce or eliminate immigration, both legal and illegal. It is founded by Charles Stewart Mott, a leader of many anti-immigration groups, so one would not expect and impartial analysis which it isn't. Here are some of the problems with this report:

• Taking into account payments made by undocumented immigrants, the actually number drops to 99 billion.
• FAIR includes 3.4 million children which are US citizens which reduces the figure to 90 billion.
• FAIR uses and estimate of 13 billion total illegal immigrants. Homeland Security estimates 11.3 billion and Pew estimates 11.4. Using the more realist estimate of these organization, the amount drops to 76 billion.
• The FAIR report makes the broad assumption that illegal immigrants contribute nothing to the economy. Their jobs would be filled by America citizens at the same pay. No one with any knowledge of the labor market would agree.
• FAIR also includes about $2.47 billion in fraudulent use of Medicaid, although there is no data to support this.
• The report also assumes that all children of illegal immigrants are in school all the time when in fact we know that the children of many illegal immigrants attend school much less than half the year.
• The report also assumes that all children of illegal immigrants require special treatment in school, primarily language assistance which is again not true.

Yet, Trump and his supporters continue to quote this report as if were Gospel handed down from the Divine. This follows with most of what comes from Trump, huge exaggerations with little basis in fact. Other anti-immigration groups have estimates, all of which are much less that 113 billion. Pro-immigration groups claim the contributions of illegal immigrants out weigh the costs, a statement I doubt but it may not be too far from the truth.
http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/research-pub/USCostStudy_2013upd.pdf
Trump says illegal immigration costs $113 billion a year