bush's new book getting him into trouble (admitting to waterboarding)

[shintao]

RW, let's see, beheading or water boarding???

Also, in a perfect world water boarding would not be needed at all.....

We are talking about three people that where water boarded who are known terrorist, they are not solders, the only reason this has anything relevance is for campaign purposes.....

Let me expand your explanation of what we are talking about.

Jamal Naseer was picked up by US Special Forces in Afghanistan in March 2003. He was held in a small, overcrowded detention cell at Gardez, a facility that did not registerits prisoners and which was closed to Red Cross monitors. No medical personnel visited Naseer during the 17 days that he was held and beaten. Men arrested with Mr. Naseer were beaten, kicked, whipped, slammed against the wall, and immersed in cold water. Their toenails either fell off or were torn off. Eyewitnesses report that Mr. Naseer suddenly fell to the ground, seized, and died. He was bleeding from his ear. The clinical history suggests that he died of a basilar skull fracture, an injury caused by severe head trauma with a hard object. His death was not mentioned in the Pentagon's updated list of 39 detainee deaths in July 2004. The Pentagon claims that it did not know of this case until a human rights organization, the Crimes of War Project, informed them of the matter.

and this has what to do with the issue? are we down to the emotional appeal plateau because you cannot craft logical post?

Hmm, now medical reports are illogical? Really? And where are you floating around at? Let me really dumb things down here for you. If he can't comprehend, this may still be above his goat story books.

A Punishable Offense

In the war crimes tribunals that followed Japan's defeat in World War II, the issue of waterboarding was sometimes raised. In 1947, the U.S. charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for waterboarding a U.S. civilian. Asano was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor.

"All of these trials elicited compelling descriptions of water torture from its victims, and resulted in severe punishment for its perpetrators," writes Evan Wallach in the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law.

On Jan. 21, 1968, The Washington Post ran a front-page photo of a U.S. soldier supervising the waterboarding of a captured North Vietnamese soldier. The caption said the technique induced "a flooding sense of suffocation and drowning, meant to make him talk." The picture led to an Army investigation and, two months later, the court martial of the soldier.

Cases of waterboarding have occurred on U.S. soil, as well. In 1983, Texas Sheriff James Parker was charged, along with three of his deputies, for handcuffing prisoners to chairs, placing towels over their faces, and pouring water on the cloth until they gave what the officers considered to be confessions. The sheriff and his deputies were all convicted and sentenced to four years in prison.

 

[Missourian]

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So you agree that people who murder other people should be tortured?

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No, I believe if you have an opportunity to save American lives by using waterboarding, sleep deprivation, or other non lethal, non maiming advanced interrogation techniques, you have an obligation to do so.

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All people engaged in torture claim they are doing so for rightious reasons. Ask John McCain.......his torturers considered him to be a war criminal and were doing it to obtain information to save innocent VietNamese lives

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McCain was mained for life...we're talking about splashing some water on a guys face. You ignored the whole "non-maiming" part...Big difference, don't ya think?

 

[GWV5903]

American soldiers also have valuable information. The US openly engaging in torture because the end justifies the means only gives our enemies the same rights to use it against our soldiers

RW, let's see, beheading or water boarding???

Also, in a perfect world water boarding would not be needed at all.....

We are talking about three people that where water boarded who are known terrorist, they are not solders, the only reason this has anything relevance is for campaign purposes.....

Let me expand your explanation of what we are talking about.

Jamal Naseer was picked up by US Special Forces in Afghanistan in March 2003. He was held in a small, overcrowded detention cell at Gardez, a facility that did not registerits prisoners and which was closed to Red Cross monitors. No medical personnel visited Naseer during the 17 days that he was held and beaten. Men arrested with Mr. Naseer were beaten, kicked, whipped, slammed against the wall, and immersed in cold water. Their toenails either fell off or were torn off. Eyewitnesses report that Mr. Naseer suddenly fell to the ground, seized, and died. He was bleeding from his ear. The clinical history suggests that he died of a basilar skull fracture, an injury caused by severe head trauma with a hard object. His death was not mentioned in the Pentagon's updated list of 39 detainee deaths in July 2004. The Pentagon claims that it did not know of this case until a human rights organization, the Crimes of War Project, informed them of the matter.

This is not a expansion of what we are discussing, this is a different story altogether.....

Last time I checked, Bush did not agree with this at all, again my point is made clearer with your attempt to connect the two, it is purely political, nothing more.....

 

[Missourian]

What a horrific viewpoint of when human rights apply. "If I recognize your uniform, I have to provide you humane treatment...if I don't, I am free to torture you in any way I see fit"

Do you honestly believe that as long as we don't sink to the level of depravation of our enemies that it somehow makes us right?

Human rights apply to all people......even the most heinous criminal
That is part of being a civilized society

I admire and respect your commitment to your principles RW. My father, agrees with you. But the pragmatist in me won't sacrifice lives in the pursuit of an ideal that is IMO a shame. Our troops are going to be tortured...and I mean REALLY tortured, not lose a few hours sleep and have water splashed on their face, regardless of whether we waterboard 3 guys or not.

We need to be flexible, we are fighting a whole new kind of war, and intel is worth more than gold.

You use the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right" as the crux of your argument. I use "Sometimes it takes a thief to catch a thief".

I hope we never find out which one is more correct.

 

[California Girl]

Oh..the United States Constitution?

Let me help you with that..

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted

Are these terrorists Americans? No.

You yourself used the term "United States Constitution". That's what is it. It is not the "United WORLD Constitution". It is for Americans, for our way of life. Fuck the rest of the world - if they fuck with us.

Idiot.

Make up your minds, lefties, do we inflict our will - and our Constitution - on the rest of the world? Because you're the ones telling us we should not do that.

Fucking moronic fools.

 

[The T]

Oh..the United States Constitution?

Let me help you with that..

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted

Since when are foreign enemy combatants afforded Constitutional protections? Which Amendment reflects your brilliant ephiphany here?

 

[mdn2000]

Oh..the United States Constitution?

Let me help you with that..

Amendment 8 - Cruel and Unusual Punishment. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted

Torture is not a punishment, its a tool during war to extract information from those suspected of withholding information that is of high value.

If torture is used as punishment than the constitution applies. If torture is used as a tool during war the constitution does not apply

 

[rightwinger]

*
No, I believe if you have an opportunity to save American lives by using waterboarding, sleep deprivation, or other non lethal, non maiming advanced interrogation techniques, you have an obligation to do so.

*
All people engaged in torture claim they are doing so for rightious reasons. Ask John McCain.......his torturers considered him to be a war criminal and were doing it to obtain information to save innocent VietNamese lives

*
*
McCain was mained for life...we're talking about splashing some water on a guys face. You ignored the whole "non-maiming" part...Big difference, don't ya think?

But...but.....we only torture a "LITTLE" bit

So its OK as long as you are not maimed. Excruciating pain or terror is not torture as long as we don't leave marks

Its hard to believe we have Americans saying this

 

[Missourian]

*
All people engaged in torture claim they are doing so for rightious reasons. Ask John McCain.......his torturers considered him to be a war criminal and were doing it to obtain information to save innocent VietNamese lives

*
*
McCain was mained for life...we're talking about splashing some water on a guys face. You ignored the whole "non-maiming" part...Big difference, don't ya think?

*
But...but.....we only torture a "LITTLE" bit
*
So its OK as long as you are not maimed. Excruciating pain or terror is not torture as long as we don't leave marks
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Its hard to believe we have Americans saying this

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Conversely, I can't believe Americans would put thousands...perhaps tens of thousands or more of their fellow Americans lives at risk because they are either too squeamish to splash some water or that they are willing to sacrifice those lives for the sake of "the moral high ground" of saving a known terrorist from temporary discomfort.

 

[Stephanie]

I'd say any American cheering this move by AI, should be considered TRAITORS to this country.

 

[mudwhistle]

Is that what you think this is all about?

You're wrong. Three people were waterboarded to get information about attacks that had not happened yet. It paid off -- attacks were prevented.

It wasn't used as punishment.

You and your strawman are dismissed.

Some opinion of what is torture, and nothing is dismissed. Torture is torture dudley, for whatever reason it is done. For fun, for information, for resentment, etc. You haven't a clue what it was used for Dudley, as you try to justify it in that lil marble of yours. LOL! Torture is still torture, and still a war crime, and some war criminals went to prison for it. So you might take your lame excuses up with the judges who sent them there.

Oh, my strawman is still standing Dudley.

You concern for terrorists is touching, but they still want you dead. Luckily, there are brave men and women who will protect you from them.

Best way for a rotten scoundrel to get in good with a lib is take up their causes. They ignore the fact that he's a piece of shit.

 

[Samson]

Two wrongs do not make a right

We should not allow them to drag our moral values down to their level

You can live in your moral high ground, I think the rest of us will live in the REAL WORLD.

A REAL WORLD where Americans openly torture others while we hold ourselves up as an example of freedom and human rights?

You're right: Perhaps we should stop "holding ourselves up as an example."

Do you think 20 million Illegal Mexicans will return home then?

 

[daveman]

Yes, how touching you can justify torture, murder & rape of innocent human beings who are chained & detained, by war criminals. You are such a hero Dudley..........


Again,................... So you agree that people who murder other people should be tortured?

Yawn.

 

[daveman]

Some opinion of what is torture, and nothing is dismissed. Torture is torture dudley, for whatever reason it is done. For fun, for information, for resentment, etc. You haven't a clue what it was used for Dudley, as you try to justify it in that lil marble of yours. LOL! Torture is still torture, and still a war crime, and some war criminals went to prison for it. So you might take your lame excuses up with the judges who sent them there.

Oh, my strawman is still standing Dudley.

You concern for terrorists is touching, but they still want you dead. Luckily, there are brave men and women who will protect you from them.

Best way for a rotten scoundrel to get in good with a lib is take up their causes. They ignore the fact that he's a piece of shit.

Indeed. The left never met a criminal, thug, or terrorist they didn't love.

 

[rightwinger]

You can live in your moral high ground, I think the rest of us will live in the REAL WORLD.

A REAL WORLD where Americans openly torture others while we hold ourselves up as an example of freedom and human rights?

You're right: Perhaps we should stop "holding ourselves up as an example."

Do you think 20 million Illegal Mexicans will return home then?

Maybe if we tortured them

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

A REAL WORLD where Americans openly torture others while we hold ourselves up as an example of freedom and human rights?

You're right: Perhaps we should stop "holding ourselves up as an example."

Do you think 20 million Illegal Mexicans will return home then?

Maybe if we tortured them

If only....

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

You concern for terrorists is touching, but they still want you dead. Luckily, there are brave men and women who will protect you from them.

Best way for a rotten scoundrel to get in good with a lib is take up their causes. They ignore the fact that he's a piece of shit.

Indeed. The left never met a criminal, thug, or terrorist they didn't love.

That is the left.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Getting Bush in trouble with who? The far left whackaloons that shit themselves daily for 8 years over every utterance from the man's mouth?

Who cares. I find it all very amusing.

 

[Sallow]

Since they were declared enemy combatants, they have been given due process, and they have been determined to have no rights.

Why do we even capture these idiots? if you want to slather them in our rights we might as well give up and implement whatever system they want us to live under.

Go back.

Read what I posted. Or read the Constitution.

This would only apply to a person born here or naturalized. I agree you cannot use those techniques on american citizens. Where i do not see this applying is to basically brigands operating outside american and interntational law. They respect no treaties, so they deserve no protection.

To allow them the benefits of legal protection without them following the rules as well defeats the purpose of law and treaty. if they dont feel like following it, they abandon any protections and are at the whim of whoever captures them.

Again..read the Consitution. It doesn't make any distinct between citizens and non-citizens.

 

[rightwinger]

You concern for terrorists is touching, but they still want you dead. Luckily, there are brave men and women who will protect you from them.

Best way for a rotten scoundrel to get in good with a lib is take up their causes. They ignore the fact that he's a piece of shit.

Indeed. The left never met a criminal, thug, or terrorist they didn't love.

Neither did the Constitution when it provided them with certain rights