Can Any Rightwinger Give Me A Solid Argument Why Private Industry Instead Of Government Should Run..

[Rikurzhen]

And where exactly do you think that the extra money we spend in the US is going? Health providers earn about 4% profit. So where do you imagine the extra money is being spent?

Please.

Forbes ran the following story. The US ranked dead last in several healthcare considerations (access, costs, quality, etc.) among 11 industrialized nations rated. Note the graph. Our per-patient expenditures are almost twice what they are in the other 10 countries, yet our overall quality of healthcare sucks. Thank the insurance racket for that sad reality.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access Equity Quality Efficiency and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund

You're quoting a flawed study. What we want to know is how effective the health care system is with respect to outcomes. Right? It's the black box that we're looking at - an input goes in, it gets processed in the black box, and an output comes out. A patient goes in, the healthcare system does its thing, and the patient outcome is measured. Do you disagree?

When we do international comparisons we have to control for population variance. This study doesn't. It ranks the US last on infant mortality and life expectancy. Here's what the US has to contend with that other nations don't.

Notice how black life expectancy is significantly lower than white life expectancy. Iceland has a homogeneous population, we don't.

We see racial outcomes varying , even when we control for confounding factors like income and access to health care. Here's what is going on with strokes:

Here's what is going on with breast cancer incidence and mortality when black women are disproportionately developing ER- cancers which are harder to treat, don't respond to drugs which work against ER+ cancers, and have a higher mortality rate:

The same dynamic is taking place with infant mortality. Black women have a higher rate of multiple births, low birth weight and extremely low birth weight babies and these are the babies who are at highest risk of dying. Look at the data and please note the infant mortality rate of Mexican-American and Cuban-American women in relation to non-Hispanic white women.

That high black infant mortality rate is not due to lack of medical care or mother's poverty, for Mexican-American women are just as poor as black women and yet have BETTER outcomes, a LOWER infant mortality rate than white women.

So the study you cite is garbage because it doesn't control for population variance. I looked at the data in the Commonwealth study which reported the mean life expectancy at age 60 and placed America in 10th of 11 places with a mean of 17.5 years for both men and women. First place went to Switzerland with mean of 19.0 years. When the CDC does the same calculation but disaggregates the data by race, we see that white men and women, together, have at age 60 a life expectancy of 22.5 years.That kind of turns everything around, doesn't it? From 10th place to 1st place when comparing LIKE TO LIKE, white population to white population.

As for costs, this is what they're buying you.

Convenience and spare capacity cost money to keep functioning. One last point, we live in a very high cost of living nation and that needs to be accounted for.

 

[BluesLegend]

The deregulation that happened during the reign of ronnie reagan and the misery he projected upon the working class.
Airlines were deregulated, banking was deregulated and made into a quagmire.

Good grief why not go back to the Roman Empire and blame them for something too. Yank the liberal talking points IV out of your arm.

 

[gipper]

And where exactly do you think that the extra money we spend in the US is going? Health providers earn about 4% profit. So where do you imagine the extra money is being spent?

Please.

Forbes ran the following story. The US ranked dead last in several healthcare considerations (access, costs, quality, etc.) among 11 industrialized nations rated. Note the graph. Our per-patient expenditures are almost twice what they are in the other 10 countries, yet our overall quality of healthcare sucks. Thank the insurance racket for that sad reality.

US Health System Ranks Last Among Eleven Countries on Measures of Access Equity Quality Efficiency and Healthy Lives - The Commonwealth Fund

You're quoting a flawed study. What we want to know is how effective the health care system is with respect to outcomes. Right? It's the black box that we're looking at - an input goes in, it gets processed in the black box, and an output comes out. A patient goes in, the healthcare system does its thing, and the patient outcome is measured. Do you disagree?

When we do international comparisons we have to control for population variance. This study doesn't. It ranks the US last on infant mortality and life expectancy. Here's what the US has to contend with that other nations don't.

Notice how black life expectancy is significantly lower than white life expectancy. Iceland has a homogeneous population, we don't.

We see racial outcomes varying , even when we control for confounding factors like income and access to health care. Here's what is going on with strokes:

Here's what is going on with breast cancer incidence and mortality when black women are disproportionately developing ER- cancers which are harder to treat, don't respond to drugs which work against ER+ cancers, and have a higher mortality rate:

The same dynamic is taking place with infant mortality. Black women have a higher rate of multiple births, low birth weight and extremely low birth weight babies and these are the babies who are at highest risk of dying. Look at the data and please note the infant mortality rate of Mexican-American and Cuban-American women in relation to non-Hispanic white women.

That high black infant mortality rate is not due to lack of medical care or mother's poverty, for Mexican-American women are just as poor as black women and yet have BETTER outcomes, a LOWER infant mortality rate than white women.

So the study you cite is garbage because it doesn't control for population variance. I looked at the data in the Commonwealth study which reported the mean life expectancy at age 60 and placed America in 10th of 11 places with a mean of 17.5 years for both men and women. First place went to Switzerland with mean of 19.0 years. When the CDC does the same calculation but disaggregates the data by race, we see that white men and women, together, have at age 60 a life expectancy of 22.5 years.That kind of turns everything around, doesn't it? From 10th place to 1st place when comparing LIKE TO LIKE, white population to white population.

As for costs, this is what they're buying you.

Convenience and spare capacity cost money to keep functioning. One last point, we live in a very high cost of living nation and that needs to be accounted for.

Excellent post. Thank you.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

Be thankful the VA isn't considered into all those charts and graphs or we'd rank somewhere between Chad and Ethiopia in our overall quality of healthcare.

 

[Billy000]

How about quality?
.

Yes obviously quality matters. Sure our system is state of the art. Again that's not enough to make it a good system if poor people can't afford basic cancer treatment.

You have every right to whatever health care you can afford.
That you cannot afford any particular level of health care does not give you the right to have the state force other people to pay for it, or provide it for free.

So those kids growing up in poor families shouldn't get proper healthcare because it is too expensive?

OooOOoooh... an appeal to emotion.

Forcing people to provide goods and services to others w/o compensation is involuntary servitude, regardless of the reason behind it.

Now, do you have an actual argument against what I said, or are you just going to sling logical fallacies?

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"

 

[The Rabbi]

[QUOTE="Billy000, post: 9786580, member: 33739"

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"[/QUOTE]
No, Billy. Let's pretend you're 60 and on Obamacare and have developed a life threatening illness. Your doctor reports back that the medical committee in charge has determined treatment would cost too much and the chances of your surviving dont warrant it.
Do we just say, Sorry you're time is up hope you liked it?

 

[Billy000]

[QUOTE="Billy000, post: 9786580, member: 33739"

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"

No, Billy. Let's pretend you're 60 and on Obamacare and have developed a life threatening illness. Your doctor reports back that the medical committee in charge has determined treatment would cost too much and the chances of your surviving dont warrant it.
Do we just say, Sorry you're time is up hope you liked it?[/QUOTE]
Yes only you would bring up ObamaCare which isn't even close to socialized medicine. You never cease to amaze me with your straw grasping. You have some kind of complex, dude.

 

[The Rabbi]

[QUOTE="Billy000, post: 9786580, member: 33739"

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"

No, Billy. Let's pretend you're 60 and on Obamacare and have developed a life threatening illness. Your doctor reports back that the medical committee in charge has determined treatment would cost too much and the chances of your surviving dont warrant it.
Do we just say, Sorry you're time is up hope you liked it?

Yes only you would bring up ObamaCare which isn't even close to socialized medicine. You never cease to amaze me with your straw grasping. You have some kind of complex, dude.[/QUOTE]
Only you would brush off the death panels inherent in Obamacare and not deal with the question.

 

[Billy000]

[QUOTE="Billy000, post: 9786580, member: 33739"

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"

No, Billy. Let's pretend you're 60 and on Obamacare and have developed a life threatening illness. Your doctor reports back that the medical committee in charge has determined treatment would cost too much and the chances of your surviving dont warrant it.
Do we just say, Sorry you're time is up hope you liked it?

Yes only you would bring up ObamaCare which isn't even close to socialized medicine. You never cease to amaze me with your straw grasping. You have some kind of complex, dude.

Only you would brush off the death panels inherent in Obamacare and not deal with the question.[/QUOTE]
Lol death panels? That myth has been debunked soooo many times.

 

[The Rabbi]

[QUOTE="Billy000, post: 9786580, member: 33739"

Let's pretend for a moment you were born to a poor family and you get a life threatening illness at a young age. Should everyone just tell you "sorry son you're SOL!"

No, Billy. Let's pretend you're 60 and on Obamacare and have developed a life threatening illness. Your doctor reports back that the medical committee in charge has determined treatment would cost too much and the chances of your surviving dont warrant it.
Do we just say, Sorry you're time is up hope you liked it?

Yes only you would bring up ObamaCare which isn't even close to socialized medicine. You never cease to amaze me with your straw grasping. You have some kind of complex, dude.

Only you would brush off the death panels inherent in Obamacare and not deal with the question.

Lol death panels? That myth has been debunked soooo many times.[/QUOTE]
Except it isnt a myth to anyone watching what other countries with similar systems do. Of course that can't count you. You dnt watch anything except reality TV.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Be thankful the VA isn't considered into all those charts and graphs or we'd rank somewhere between Chad and Ethiopia in our overall quality of healthcare.

At least tell me that you understood my point.

 

[Londoner]

Research the cable TV/Internet sector. There is no competition. These companies spent 15 years intensely lobbying Washington with one goal: to divide the country into fixed "no-compete" zones so that each company (Cox, Charter, Time Warner, etc.,) could raise rates and decrease services without fear of being disciplined by lower prices/better service from a competitor. This is how corporations protect their bottom line and their share holders, by capturing Washington and creating monopolies.

Each large sector - energy, health care and media/communication - is run by big businesses who fund elections for the privilege of creating monopolies. When you look at how much money business pours into Washington, you realize that our politicians are part of the monopoly - they are in the loop and lives of great wealth and privilege by acquiescing to the machine.

This is what profit does. This is what Milton Friedman and his movement did when they put the self-interested pursuit of profit in charge of life on planet earth, unchecked by any regulations, including anti-trust laws which use to protect consumers from monopolies.

The USA has the most dysfunctional health care system in the world, with the highest cost for services and drugs, and the highest administrative costs BUT, for all the money we spend, we are not even in the top 20 for outcomes and efficiency. This is what a monopoly does. It gets you higher rates from consumers while you have the luxury of decreasing services. How is this possible? Because our noble capitalists have purchased Washington. They have poured trillions into the pockets of our politicians so that they don't have to compete, so that states like Iowa only have one provider in 90% of the state. This is a crime.

Don't get me wrong. I want health care companies and internet providers to crawl over the bones of the living and the dead to give me the best rate BUT that is not the system we have. We have a system of monopolies that are gouging consumers, who must increasingly rely on debt to pay for necessary staples that are affordable in other countries. Monopolies are also bad because they cannibalize the purchasing power of consumers. One reason we have been in such a long slump is because we no longer have enough solvent consumers. Our middle class is now too indebted from having to support monopoly pricing for too long.

Big Government and Big Business have merged. When a politician loses or leaves his elected office he has a lucrative job waiting for him in a drug lobby. As consumers we pay a high price for this corruption. Everything is more expensive.

How do big business and big government get away with this? They invest in Talk Radio and FOX News which convinces people that we don't have monopolies, only innocent small businesses being crushed by government. This is such a farce, and it feeds upon truly brainwashed citizens.

The pre-Obama health care cabal invested a lot of money into our politicians in order to get a monopoly. They created a system where they could keep increasing our premiums while decreasing our coverage. So of course they don't want government to break up their monopoly pricing. And of course they don't want the small administrative costs of Medicare. They'd much rather put a useless, dysfunctional layer of profit makers between patient and doctor... and call it administration. This is what monopolies do. They feed the owners while crushing the consumer.

 

[Cosmos]

Government regulation is the root cause for corruption.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The USA has the most dysfunctional health care system in the world, with the highest cost for services and drugs, and the highest administrative costs BUT, for all the money we spend, we are not even in the top 20 for outcomes and efficiency.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Be thankful the VA isn't considered into all those charts and graphs or we'd rank somewhere between Chad and Ethiopia in our overall quality of healthcare.

The VA is gov't. run, a small example what healthcare under obamashitcare will look like.

 

[Cosmos]

I'm what people would call a 7 year cancer survivor. I prefer to call it cancer warrior since the battle isn't decided yet. At any rate, for the first 3 years of my treatment, the modern targeted therapy drug I took that arrested my cancer was denied to victims of the vaunted NHS in the UK because of their idiotic regulations and rationing. Do you single payer people really think that pharmaceutical companies are going to spend the hundreds of millions it takes to develop these modern therapies when the government steps in and rations their use? I don't. But if that's what you want, when you're diagnosed be sure to ask for the 15 year old technology to treat your disease.

 

[Rikurzhen]

I'm what people would call a 7 year cancer survivor. I prefer to call it cancer warrior since the battle isn't decided yet. At any rate, for the first 3 years of my treatment, the modern targeted therapy drug I took that arrested my cancer was denied to victims of the vaunted NHS in the UK because of their idiotic regulations and rationing. Do you single payer people really think that pharmaceutical companies are going to spend the hundreds of millions it takes to develop these modern therapies when the government steps in and rations their use? I don't. But if that's what you want, when you're diagnosed be sure to ask for the 15 year old technology to treat your disease.

Is that you Walter, Walter White?

 

[Vigilante]

I hope this isn't too nuanced for you subversives.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Does billy actually have a job and a car note and a mortgage and insurance, or is this all "theory" to him?

I have my suspicions.

and he calls himself a "Moderate" Liberal.....Moderate my ass

Government Healthcare:

The efficiency of the DMV with the compassion of the IRS.

there is not a lot of compassion in the private sector either....

Not in the least true. Ive been in medicine for 31 years. The competition is fierce. If you don't provide compassionate, state if the art care with top notch customer service, you won't survive.

Kaiser has sure lasted awhile.....that compassionate bunch of basturds turned down just about every test that THEIR Doctors wanted for my wife....thats not showing compassion or top notch customer service......and i have met others with the same stories about them.....but yet,they are still around.....

Well I don't know if that's true or not. I can tell you that everywhere I go, they are pushing customer service like obsessed maniacs. Surveys after surveys, hospitals bragging about customer service recognition, consultants making a bundle on improving customer service. Often times we who actually take care of patients wonder if hospitals are more concerned about image and reputation, than results.

its true.....Kaiser turned test after test down....their poor Neurologist did not know what to do.....i knew what to do....i went to another Co......i went to Blue Shield....their Doctors could not believe Kaiser would not ok the tests my wife needed to get a bead on her seizures....they have never turned anything down that they have ordered......i get pretty good customer service from them and they showed my wife some good compassion after a car accident she was in to the tune of 10 grand.....i was shocked with that one....

 

[Harry Dresden]

...our healthcare system?

Already there is a big money in healthcare. If corporations run our healthcare system, they can charge whatever they want. Seriously what good is having state of the art healthcare if poor people can't afford the most basic of cancer treatment?

Why would it not be better to create a system that insures proper treatment for everyone? Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but if you take away profit as an incentive you are less likely to have corruption. Let's stop wasting billions a year on useless defense expenses and focus that money on socialized medicine.

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

Link to the poll or you are just lying as libtards do. Reason why private co. should run healthcare and not the gov't.; because this is not a socialist country as libtards would love it to be. Idiots.

Good idea, let's put some actual evidence into play:

Canada

United States:

Lol random googling is a common conservative USMB tactic when they know they are losing the argument.

Tell me. What are the demographics of this poll of yours?

Hey man, here's a clue, free of charge: you are getting your assed kicked here. I'd slink away if I was you.

yea it does look that way.........