Can Any Rightwinger Give Me A Solid Argument Why Private Industry Instead Of Government Should Run..

[bripat9643]

...our healthcare system?

Already there is a big money in healthcare. If corporations run our healthcare system, they can charge whatever they want. Seriously what good is having state of the art healthcare if poor people can't afford the most basic of cancer treatment?

Why would it not be better to create a system that insures proper treatment for everyone? Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but if you take away profit as an incentive you are less likely to have corruption. Let's stop wasting billions a year on useless defense expenses and focus that money on socialized medicine.

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

Less likely to have corruption? Yeah, there's not corruption in our government, is there?

That along should demonstrate just how idiotic your theory is.

 

[bripat9643]

...our healthcare system?

Already there is a big money in healthcare. If corporations run our healthcare system, they can charge whatever they want. Seriously what good is having state of the art healthcare if poor people can't afford the most basic of cancer treatment?

Why would it not be better to create a system that insures proper treatment for everyone? Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but if you take away profit as an incentive you are less likely to have corruption. Let's stop wasting billions a year on useless defense expenses and focus that money on socialized medicine.

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

You know what the government should be doing with healthcare? And they do have a role

Every state should have an advisory board that sets price controls for various procedures in that state.

That's it.

That's how they "control" energy prices, as an example. And it works, Nearly everyone can afford electricity, and no one has to buy insurances in case they ever need more electricity than they can afford.

Ah yes well the problem with that is big money from private industry, as always, corrupts government regulation.

ROFL! Yeah, private business is always the cause of government corruption. We know that's true because socialist governments have no corruption . . . . . . no, wait.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Last time I did this calculation America would have to junk about 8,400 of it's 10,000 MRI machines in order to get down to Canadian MRI per capita levels.

Cost savings can certainly be achieved through rationing access to medical care. The question is would not because of better health care, but because the Americans stand for that type of rationing?

Right. Go back to Wikipedia where you found your figures. Please note that per patient expenditure in the US is twice that of Canada, not because of better healthcare, but because the insurance monster wants its cut. How do you feel about insurance company actuaries making decisions like whether or not you should have open heart surgery? Doctors make those decisions in Canada. Though I have no use for him otherwise, Michael Moore's "Sicko" should be mandatory viewing in this country.

how come michael did not show the other side of Cuba?.....you know the one were all the poor people live?.....i delivered mail to a Cuban guy whos brother in Canada had to send family there Neosporin because they cant get it there.....

 

[Rikurzhen]

Does billy actually have a job and a car note and a mortgage and insurance, or is this all "theory" to him?

I have my suspicions.

and he calls himself a "Moderate" Liberal.....Moderate my ass

Government Healthcare:

The efficiency of the DMV with the compassion of the IRS.

there is not a lot of compassion in the private sector either....

Not in the least true. Ive been in medicine for 31 years. The competition is fierce. If you don't provide compassionate, state if the art care with top notch customer service, you won't survive.

Kaiser has sure lasted awhile.....that compassionate bunch of basturds turned down just about every test that THEIR Doctors wanted for my wife....thats not showing compassion or top notch customer service......and i have met others with the same stories about them.....but yet,they are still around.....

Well I don't know if that's true or not. I can tell you that everywhere I go, they are pushing customer service like obsessed maniacs. Surveys after surveys, hospitals bragging about customer service recognition, consultants making a bundle on improving customer service. Often times we who actually take care of patients wonder if hospitals are more concerned about image and reputation, than results.

its true.....Kaiser turned test after test down....their poor Neurologist did not know what to do.....i knew what to do....i went to another Co......i went to Blue Shield....their Doctors could not believe Kaiser would not ok the tests my wife needed to get a bead on her seizures....they have never turned anything down that they have ordered......i get pretty good customer service from them and they showed my wife some good compassion after a car accident she was in to the tune of 10 grand.....i was shocked with that one....

I'm glad to read that it all worked out and that you had a choice. Check out this story about a 6 year old girl in Canada who doesn't have a choice because the Death Panel has ruled:

Anya Martinez has spent as many days of her young life in hospital as she has at home.

The toughest part of the six-year-old’s battle with leukemia came during Christmas, when she was constantly in pain after receiving a bone marrow transplant.

Even then, she was thinking about the other children in the hospital, hoping Santa would bring them gifts.

“I want to help other kids,” she explained.

Her parents want to help give her the gift of life but are running out of options.

Doctors at Sick Kids Hospital and McMaster Children’s Hospital have tried all of the standard treatments to kill her cancer. But radiation, chemotherapy, and a bone marrow transplant haven’t worked, which is extremely rare.

But there is hope.

A clinical trial underway at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia has shown promise in treating acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL).

Immune cells known as T cells are taken from the patient and modified before going back into the body.

“What we’re trying to do is make the T cells go after the cancer cells”, explained Dr. Stephan Grapp, an oncologist with The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.

According to the hospital, 27 patients (22 children and five adults) have been treated using T cell therapy. Of those patients, 24 went into remission for some length of time while 18 of the 24 remain in remission.

Even though the news may seem encouraging, the hospital cautioned “it is still very early in testing and…not all children who qualify for the trial will have the same result.”

“This is her best option right now,” said Anya’s father Michael Martinez, adding her doctors feel it is the best hope.

There is just one issue: price.

Although the trial itself is free, explained Martinez, the cost of hospital care is estimated at between $500,000 to $800,000 US.

OHIP will not fund it. Ontario’s Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care would not comment specifically on Anya’s case but told Global News it does not cover experimental treatment.

“Everything that we’re using today – chemo, radiation – at one point was a trial,” argued Anya’s mother Dorothy.​

 

[Harry Dresden]

Does billy actually have a job and a car note and a mortgage and insurance, or is this all "theory" to him?

I have my suspicions.

and he calls himself a "Moderate" Liberal.....Moderate my ass

Government Healthcare:

The efficiency of the DMV with the compassion of the IRS.

there is not a lot of compassion in the private sector either....

Not in the least true. Ive been in medicine for 31 years. The competition is fierce. If you don't provide compassionate, state if the art care with top notch customer service, you won't survive.

Kaiser has sure lasted awhile.....that compassionate bunch of basturds turned down just about every test that THEIR Doctors wanted for my wife....thats not showing compassion or top notch customer service......and i have met others with the same stories about them.....but yet,they are still around.....

Well I don't know if that's true or not. I can tell you that everywhere I go, they are pushing customer service like obsessed maniacs. Surveys after surveys, hospitals bragging about customer service recognition, consultants making a bundle on improving customer service. Often times we who actually take care of patients wonder if hospitals are more concerned about image and reputation, than results.

its true.....Kaiser turned test after test down....their poor Neurologist did not know what to do.....i knew what to do....i went to another Co......i went to Blue Shield....their Doctors could not believe Kaiser would not ok the tests my wife needed to get a bead on her seizures....they have never turned anything down that they have ordered......i get pretty good customer service from them and they showed my wife some good compassion after a car accident she was in to the tune of 10 grand.....i was shocked with that one....

I'm glad to read that it all worked out and that you had a choice. Check out this story about a 6 year old girl in Canada who doesn't have a choice because the Death Panel has ruled:

Anya Martinez has spent as many days of her young life in hospital as she has at home.

The toughest part of the six-year-old’s battle with leukemia came during Christmas, when she was constantly in pain after receiving a bone marrow transplant.

Even then, she was thinking about the other children in the hospital, hoping Santa would bring them gifts.

“I want to help other kids,” she explained.

Her parents want to help give her the gift of life but are running out of options.

Doctors at Sick Kids Hospital and McMaster Children’s Hospital have tried all of the standard treatments to kill her cancer. But radiation, chemotherapy, and a bone marrow transplant haven’t worked, which is extremely rare.

But there is hope.

A clinical trial underway at The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia has shown promise in treating acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL).

Immune cells known as T cells are taken from the patient and modified before going back into the body.

“What we’re trying to do is make the T cells go after the cancer cells”, explained Dr. Stephan Grapp, an oncologist with The Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.

According to the hospital, 27 patients (22 children and five adults) have been treated using T cell therapy. Of those patients, 24 went into remission for some length of time while 18 of the 24 remain in remission.

Even though the news may seem encouraging, the hospital cautioned “it is still very early in testing and…not all children who qualify for the trial will have the same result.”

“This is her best option right now,” said Anya’s father Michael Martinez, adding her doctors feel it is the best hope.

There is just one issue: price.

Although the trial itself is free, explained Martinez, the cost of hospital care is estimated at between $500,000 to $800,000 US.

OHIP will not fund it. Ontario’s Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care would not comment specifically on Anya’s case but told Global News it does not cover experimental treatment.

“Everything that we’re using today – chemo, radiation – at one point was a trial,” argued Anya’s mother Dorothy.​

i hear ya....

 

[Oldstyle]

Here's a few reasons

The government spent over $1 Billion to develop the only website on the planet that can't tell you when someone bought your product

The government runs public housing, the Post Office and the DMV

Okay so your basic, simple minded point is that sometimes gov fails. Well I can give you countless examples of private industry failing. Does that mean we should abolish capitalism? No of course not.

The difference between the Private Sector and the Public Sector is that when private sector businesses aren't run well they go belly up due to competition...when public sector businesses aren't run well they keep right on running because they don't HAVE competition!

For decades, the US health care system was the envy of the world and that was a system run privately. Why change that?

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

how come michael did not show the other side of Cuba?.....you know the one were all the poor people live?.....i delivered mail to a Cuban guy whos brother in Canada had to send family there Neosporin because they cant get it there.....

I liked the fact that every time Moore was introduced to some poor soul fucked over by the health insurance racket, and then tried to contact anyone at the company (much less get them to go on video), they ran like scalded dogs. They ran and skulked like the criminals they are. As to your reference to Cuba, I have no idea what you mean. It's been awhile since I've seen 'Sicko'. I don't remember any part of it being filmed in Cuba or even any references to Cuba. As I recall, the film was shot in the US, Canada, Britain, and France. You'll have to spell it out for me. I'm kind of a dumbass sometimes.

If it's an allegorical reference to the fact that the government is in control of national healthcare in Cuba as it is in Canada, well, it's not a very apt analogy. Canada isn't Cuba. It's a free market capitalist economy with one of the highest standards of living in the world...if not the highest.

The man who dragged Canada kicking and screaming into nationalized healthcare was named Tommy Douglas. He was premier of Saskatchewan at the time. There were a lot of people in Saskatchewan who didn't want anything that smacked of socialism. There was a doctor's strike. Things got ugly. Douglas declared martial law and put tanks on the streets of Regina. Eventually the entire country adopted his healthcare model. He was a champion middleweight boxer, a PhD in sociology from the University of Chicago, and an ordained minister. He was tough, compassionate, and wise.

Canadians love their healthcare system as has been noted by poll results in previous posts here. Canada's oldest and most widely read periodical, Macleans Magazine, conducted a poll a few years back in which subscribers were presented with a list of 100 prominent Canadians from 450 years of history, and asked to rank them as to their importance to Canadian history and their impact on society overall. Douglas was ranked #1. The philosophical paradigm is this: the most important commodity to any civilization is its people, and the most important issue for the people is their health. That should be the central tenet of enlightened nations, the one from which everything else evolves. The US is being dragged kicking and screaming just like Canada did, but we'll get there...eventually.

 

[Listening]

The OP asked for a solid argument.

This assumes the default that the government should take care of the health care system.

How about this ?

The U.S. has the best health care technology and systems in the world. Bar none.

It didn't get there by being socialized.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

If that was the case, why are there Canadians who would rather seek treatment in the United States?

Long wait times are increasingly driving patients south, including two Albertans who underwent surgery on the same day last month, and commiserated about feeling abandoned by an ailing system back home.

Their Florida surgeon has seen the number of Canadian patients grow by a staggering 800 per cent in the past decade.

Long Canadian wait times send patients south for surgery Video

 

[Rikurzhen]

Canadians love their healthcare system as has been noted by poll results in previous posts here.

Canadians love their health care system because the country is bereft of other things to love, in the sense of patriotism. It's really sad that of all the possible things that Canadians could love they put their pride into a government program. What did they love before they socialized their medical system? You see how sad that is?

Also, those charts I posted upthread don't support what you claim. This doesn't look like love. More Americans loved their system than Canadians loved theirs.

Like i said, their Medical system is uniquely Canadian and that's what they're prideful of, it gives Canadians a form of patriotism and something around which all can rally, and that's a good thing to be in love with. We have a rich history with which we can wrap our patriotism in, Canadian don't and so they grabbed what they could. But their actual medical system, no they don't love it. For heaven's sake, the Premier of Newfoundland flew to the US to have surgery rather than have it done in one of his own hospitals and as Premier, he could have twisted arms and got to the front of the line and had the very best surgeons in his Province operate on him and he still chose the US.

Danny Williams' decision to head south for heart surgery has sparked a furious debate on both sides of the border.

The premier of Newfoundland and Labrador, a former lawyer and millionaire businessman, left Monday for an unspecified cardiac surgical procedure at an undisclosed U.S. hospital. The move raised questions about whether he could have the operation in Canada.

Conservative Senator Wilbert Keon, a retired heart surgeon and professor emeritus at University of Ottawa, said Newfoundland does not have the special pumps and post-op technical support to allow all advanced complicated procedures to be performed there.​

Canada's oldest and most widely read periodical, Macleans Magazine, conducted a poll a few years back in which subscribers were presented with a list of 100 prominent Canadians from 450 years of history, and asked to rank them as to their importance to Canadian history and their impact on society overall. Douglas was ranked #1. The philosophical paradigm is this: the most important commodity to any civilization is its people, and the most important issue for the people is their health. That should be the central tenet of enlightened nations, the one from which everything else evolves. The US is being dragged kicking and screaming just like Canada did, but we'll get there...eventually.

Truth be told, Canada is actually moving in our direction. As Canada becomes more multicultural the willingness to sacrifice for fellow citizen is diminishing and support for their socialized medical system is declining. There was a big court case in Quebec to allow private insurance to begin. Private health care spending now accounts for over 30% of total health care spending in Canad. That's just going to increase.

Look, if we were all living in Finland where there is NO substantial multicultural footprint, where the Finns comprise 95% of the population and the non-white population was only 1%, then we'd all have a tight bond to each other, we'd all share deep cultural ties, we'd care about each other and so could support a socialized medical system, but we don't live in Finland, we live in the US where a man can be in Botswana on Monday and be an American citizen on Tuesday when he lands in New York. The simple fact that this man is now living in New York doesn't mean anything to me and to others. He could die in New York and I wouldn't bat more of an eye than I would if he had died in Botswana the day before he was scheduled to fly to New York. He's a total stranger to me and I, and others, share nothing with him and so are not prepared to sacrifice anything on his behalf. For this you can blame the liberals who so desired a multicultural nation that they were willing to blow up the terrific one we had, and with this new multiculturalism comes citizen atomization - the sundering of ties to the community.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

If that was the case, why are there Canadians who would rather seek treatment in the United States?

Long wait times are increasingly driving patients south, including two Albertans who underwent surgery on the same day last month, and commiserated about feeling abandoned by an ailing system back home.

Their Florida surgeon has seen the number of Canadian patients grow by a staggering 800 per cent in the past decade.

Long Canadian wait times send patients south for surgery Video

Because this fails as a false comparison fallacy.


An expanded Medicare program would ensure all Americans have access to both health maintenance and affordable healthcare when needed, and would function nothing like the Canadian system.

 

[Stephanie]

Yep, that is just one of this "old Democrat party" that is now the Progressive/commie party of the United States idols. Just look at what they're doing with this government they control. Every government agency has been run like Hitler.

We are screwed as Free People and a Free country. Especially when you have followers of a party like Billyzero who want dictators.

 

[Politico]

Here's a few reasons

The government spent over $1 Billion to develop the only website on the planet that can't tell you when someone bought your product

The government runs public housing, the Post Office and the DMV

Okay so your basic, simple minded point is that sometimes gov fails. Well I can give you countless examples of private industry failing. Does that mean we should abolish capitalism? No of course not.

The difference is government fails much more often. And in bigger ways.

 

[Rotagilla]

Yep, that is just one of this "old Democrat party" that is now the Progressive/commie party of the United States idols. Just look at what they're doing with this government they control. Every government agency has been run like Hitler.

We are screwed as Free People and a Free country. Especially when you have followers of a party like Billyzero who want dictators.

Historically, these things always get sorted out.
Collapse/secession/revolution, partitioning and reconstruction.
Rinse and repeat every few of hundred years.

 

[Clementine]

...our healthcare system?

Already there is a big money in healthcare. If corporations run our healthcare system, they can charge whatever they want. Seriously what good is having state of the art healthcare if poor people can't afford the most basic of cancer treatment?

Why would it not be better to create a system that insures proper treatment for everyone? Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but if you take away profit as an incentive you are less likely to have corruption. Let's stop wasting billions a year on useless defense expenses and focus that money on socialized medicine.

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

In your vision, doctors and nurses will work for minimum wage and medical supplies will come from the dollar store.

Yes, when you manufacture medical supplies, you do it for profit much like any other products. Drugs are also expensive. Obama made a deal with big pharms when Obamacare was created so they will continue to charge what they want and they needn't worry about competition.

Auto and home insurance are also private, yet they got so competitive that prices went down and you got more for the money.

If the government hadn't interfered in the insurance industry for so long, they could have been just as competitive and more people would have bought insurance. As it is, those with insurance paid ridiculously high prices and it's mainly because they were charged more to make up for all the people who wouldn't pay. Of course, insurance companies were vilified for that. When Medicaid or Medicare was used, only a portion of the bill was paid and the hospitals and doctors were expected to eat the rest. That cost was passed along the same way the uninsured people's costs were and those who did pay had to make up for all of it.

Medical supply companies could charge what they wanted since insurance companies were paying.

Government didn't allow competition across state lines, which kept costs high.

It's like government did everything they could to ensure that insurance rates were kept high.

Obamacare only exacerbates that problem because now hospitals and doctors can expect less payment for services. In many cases, as with Medicaid and Medicare, the amount government insurance pays is less than the actual cost of services. That means hospitals are expected to treat people even though it costs them money. Just how long do you expect them to stay in business that way? Do you realize how many hospitals have gone bankrupt and closed their doors due to non-paying patients? Many hospitals in California, where there are high numbers of illegal aliens, are closed.

Insurance companies are expected to pay for every aspirin tablet. It's insane to expect health insurance to pay for all costs. Insurance is meant for catastrophic events, not routine care. That is government interference. It's also ridiculous to force employers to provide health insurance.

Government is the problem.

Because hospitals and doctors would prefer not to go bankrupt, many will not accept Obamacare patients. Research hospitals, cancer treatment centers and many doctors won't take some patients. Problem just got worse, thanks to government.

I am tired of hearing people bitch about not getting abortion coverage from insurance companies. People want employers to hand over money for these services. If it's purely elective, fucking pay for it yourself.

Some who say they can't pay their hospital or doctor bill don't even try. So you don't have $30,000 to pay a bill. Pay something every month. Millions of people owe big bills and if each would pay even $10 or $20 a month, it could keep hospitals afloat.

If more people at least tried to pay their bills, insurance rates might not be as high.

But the entitlement mentality makes people believe they shouldn't have to pay for anything.

Nothing is free. Some demand things and they expect someone else to provide it. They call it their right. I don't see how it can be a right to force others to serve you or pay your way. I guess there are those with rights and those born into servitude for those with rights. At one point, taxes in Canada were over 50%. They are still grossly high. How many will continue to work for half their pay when they can quit and still get everything for free?

Some people lost their health insurance and some are struggling to pay the higher premiums, thanks to Obamacare. Where are their rights? Those who were paying their own way (and others) just got dumped on and their freedom of choice was taken away.

There are people who will always take advantage of others and liberals make it easy for them to do that.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

If that was the case, why are there Canadians who would rather seek treatment in the United States?

Long wait times are increasingly driving patients south, including two Albertans who underwent surgery on the same day last month, and commiserated about feeling abandoned by an ailing system back home.

Their Florida surgeon has seen the number of Canadian patients grow by a staggering 800 per cent in the past decade.

Long Canadian wait times send patients south for surgery Video

Because this fails as a false comparison fallacy.


An expanded Medicare program would ensure all Americans have access to both health maintenance and affordable healthcare when needed, and would function nothing like the Canadian system.

Interesting how the same problem arises itself through England's NHS System, but then I'm sure the direction of Obamacare will prove itself unique to the problems these other national government healthcare systems carry.

NHS waiting times are at their worst level for six years, official figures show, as 3.2m are waiting for treatment it has been admitted

Waiting times in the NHS are getting worse, with targets missed and more than 3.2m people waiting for treatment, officials have admitted.

Waiting times in NHS at worst for six years - Telegraph

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

"...the country is bereft of other things to love". What an idiotic, pedantic thing to say. Small wonder the rest of the world hates our guts. I was transferred up there (to Vancouver) by my California based company for three years in 79, 80, & 81. It's the most beautiful, cosmopolitan city I've ever seen in my life, and I've been to a bunch. 27, single, and living on Kitsilano Beach. It was like living in the Playboy Mansion if it was 20 square miles big. I loved Canada and still do. I especially liked their healthcare system. You can like what you like...which obviously doesn't sound like much.

 

[Tresha91203]

...our healthcare system?

Already there is a big money in healthcare. If corporations run our healthcare system, they can charge whatever they want. Seriously what good is having state of the art healthcare if poor people can't afford the most basic of cancer treatment?

Why would it not be better to create a system that insures proper treatment for everyone? Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but if you take away profit as an incentive you are less likely to have corruption. Let's stop wasting billions a year on useless defense expenses and focus that money on socialized medicine.

Here's a fun fact: polls show 92% of Canadians prefer the Canadian healthcare system over the US system.

We should have adopted Canada' system long ago. They've only got the highest standard of living in the world. They must be doing something right. Oh yea, I remember what they're doing right: that greedy, unconscionable, blood-sucking monster called the insurance industry doesn't get to sop up half the revenue that should be going back into public healthcare. That's what they're doing right. And spare me the "socialist" bullshit, folks. Canada's a healthy, wealthy, free market economy where everybody pays healthcare insurance premiums (to the government) every month, instead of to a bunch of vampires on Wall Street. It's a good system and it works.

If you live in densely populated areas.

 

[Rikurzhen]

"...the country is bereft of other things to love". What an idiotic, pedantic thing to say. Small wonder the rest of the world hates our guts. I was transferred up there (to Vancouver) by my California based company for three years in 79, 80, & 81. It's the most beautiful, cosmopolitan city I've ever seen in my life, and I've been to a bunch. 27, single, and living on Kitsilano Beach. It was like living in the Playboy Mansion if it was 20 square miles big. I loved Canada and still do. I especially liked their healthcare system. You can like what you like...which obviously doesn't sound like much.

Imagine Americans building their patriotism around a government program - The Clean Water Act. Woohoo. Light those firecrackers, crack a brewski, sing the national anthem and thank God we all love the Clean Water Act, the government program that unites and defines what it means to be American. Stirs the emotions, doesn't it? I'm crying a little tear right now, I'm so emotional just thinking of all the soldiers that died for their love of the Clean Water Act.