Can Obamacare be Fixed?

[PMZ]

All services offered by business and government could be improved. A given. Human's are imperfect and constantly striving for better.

But, we're stuck with human imperfection no matter what we do. Reality.

 

[Bern80]

You have a different reaction to massive debt than I do. I'm surprised, given that, of your claim to being a successful businessman.

On the other hand, it's the typical conservative economics that came close to costing us our country and has already cost us much of our economy.

Cut costs and hope something good happens.

Business and government is about growth by great products and satisfied customers. Costs are what they have to be to achieve product and customer satisfaction growth. If that's not true, you aren't in a successful business or government.

Any business that believes that great products and high customer satisfaction are unaffordable, deserves the inevitable end that they face.

The Bushwacker, and you, and most conservatives, don't believe in this country. They don't believe that we have what it takes to be successful. They want to sell off and move on.

If that happens it will be over my dead body.

You're confusing me with someone else. I'm not a businessman, or business owner, if that's what you mean. I certainly do believe in growth through quality products and satisfied customers. I'm not really sure what that has to do with taxes. Perhaps it's simply that you keep jumping to new topics every time you see you're so obviously wrong.

I'm fine with you changing your worldview to liberal.

Both businesses and governments have products and customers. They both should operate to continually improve their products and better satisfy their customers.

One way that they differ is that businesses compete for customers and price their products for each sale to each customer. Government services are typically those that can't be provided in a competitive market. Military services are an example. So they are not priced per product per customer because it's not practical. On the other hand, nobody would rely in markets that can't be competitive on businesses one rule, make more money regardless of the cost to others.

Conservatives focus on cost cutting. Their worldview is defensive and they hate risk.

Liberals are optimistic and assume that better products and better customer service will lead to growth which is better for everyone. They are offensively oriented and risk is seen as necessary for progress.

Look at the damage that conservatives have done to our economy and country by their focus on cheaper rather than better. It's unaffordable.

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

 

[Bern80]

I have seen a number of things that need to be changed in the ACA.
1. If dependents are not covered by an employer, the dependents are not eligible to use the exchanges and receive the subsidy.

2. If you have to buy individual insurance, the exchanges are great if you are within the limits of the subsidy. However, if your income exceeds the subsidy by just a dollar you can see a large just in your cost. This subsidy needs to be taper.

3. The websites for the exchanges I have seen need big improvements. The context sensitive help is almost worthless. Some of the information being collected is redundant. You have to provide family income but there is no information as what constitutes family income.

4. There is no reason to have so many different website designs. They all collect the same basic information with only small variations by state.

5. The individual mandate penalty as well as the employer mandate penalty is too low.

6. The law needs to change so all states will be required expand Medicaid. Because the Supreme Court have allowed states to make that decision nearly a million people will fall in a coverage gap.
7. Lastly, the best change that could be made is to replace the ACA with single payer. It would be much simpler, provide universal coverage, and cheaper in long run.

Wow! The already uber liberal ACA needs to become even more liberal in your eyes. You're more out to lunch than PMZ. You really want government who has proven to be so inept at so many things to be in charge of health care? Seriously, how badly does government need to fuck something up before you morons open your eyes and realize government is the problem, not the solution? Health care will have to be rationed if government is the single payer. That is an inescapable inevitability.

There is nothing liberal about ACA. There is no attempt to put the government in charge of either health care or health care insurance even though they are in the health care business for the VA and Tricare military health care, and they are in the health care insurance business with Medicare. Both work fine.

Many people thought that the only way that America could really be competitive with the rest of world in health care would be to expand Medicare to everyone and become single payer. Maybe. I think that the big downside would be the transition. All of the present health care insurance business put out of business.

And yet the bill inserts more government into the health care industry. If competition and lower pricing is really what you want than you have to actually allow private businesses compete. Both hospitals and insurance companies. And that means govcernment needs to get out of the way. It means government has to put fewer resistrictions on what insurance must cover, not more, so that consumers can decide what they really want. It means eliminating unncessary taxes on medical device providers so the cost of those service isn't artifically inflated. In short, we need to found out what health care really costs. To find that out government has to get out of the way because Obamacare is ADDING artificial costs into the system, not taking them away.

 

[Bern80]

All services offered by business and government could be improved. A given. Human's are imperfect and constantly striving for better.

But, we're stuck with human imperfection no matter what we do. Reality.

But there are certain mechanisms that do a better job of striving for perfection than others. The free market does a better job of that than goods and services provided by government. The reason is because of the direct relationship between the consumer and business in the private sector. As you so aptly put, a private business sinks or swims based on the satisfaction of their customers. There is a direct correlation between their revenue and the satisfaction of their conusmers.

Conversely, there is no such meachinsm with a government provided service. The consumer does not directly consume the service and its revenue is not generated by customers purchasing it. There is no link between what a government employee makes and what they produce. As there is no cause and effect here there is no incentive to be efficient in spending or even provide a superior product. All of this is why government run health care is a really bad idea. If there is one industry where quality matters to people, I would think it would be health care. And we want to set up a system where health care is provided through a mechanism that doesn't respond to consumer demands and has no economic mechanism to insure quality? Thanks, I'll pass.

 

[PMZ]

All services offered by business and government could be improved. A given. Human's are imperfect and constantly striving for better.

But, we're stuck with human imperfection no matter what we do. Reality.

But there are certain mechanisms that do a better job of striving for perfection than others. The free market does a better job of that than goods and services provided by government. The reason is because of the direct relationship between the consumer and business in the private sector. As you so aptly put, a private business sinks or swims based on the satisfaction of their customers. There is a direct correlation between their revenue and the satisfaction of their conusmers.

Conversely, there is no such meachinsm with a government provided service. The consumer does not directly consume the service and its revenue is not generated by customers purchasing it. There is no link between what a government employee makes and what they produce. As there is no cause and effect here there is no incentive to be efficient in spending or even provide a superior product. All of this is why government run health care is a really bad idea. If there is one industry where quality matters to people, I would think it would be health care. And we want to set up a system where health care is provided through a mechanism that doesn't respond to consumer demands and has no economic mechanism to insure quality? Thanks, I'll pass.

Make more money regardless of the cost to others is not magic. Competition is. The services typically provided by government are those that competition cannot be maintained for. The military for instance. Private warlords would be an awful idea. Air traffic control. The coordination of private energy companies. FDA regulation. Financial regulation. Health care and health care insurance regulation aka Obamacare

Conservatives have been trained by Republican propaganda media to hate our country and government by having a reflexive response to anything that's not business, of business can do everything better. Just not true. Business is only the answer when competition can be maintained and regulations can protect the consumer.

The concept of less government is an easy sell, because of the only way that government services can be priced. Everybody pays their share rather than by individual transactions which would be totally impractical.

 

[PMZ]

You're confusing me with someone else. I'm not a businessman, or business owner, if that's what you mean. I certainly do believe in growth through quality products and satisfied customers. I'm not really sure what that has to do with taxes. Perhaps it's simply that you keep jumping to new topics every time you see you're so obviously wrong.

I'm fine with you changing your worldview to liberal.

Both businesses and governments have products and customers. They both should operate to continually improve their products and better satisfy their customers.

One way that they differ is that businesses compete for customers and price their products for each sale to each customer. Government services are typically those that can't be provided in a competitive market. Military services are an example. So they are not priced per product per customer because it's not practical. On the other hand, nobody would rely in markets that can't be competitive on businesses one rule, make more money regardless of the cost to others.

Conservatives focus on cost cutting. Their worldview is defensive and they hate risk.

Liberals are optimistic and assume that better products and better customer service will lead to growth which is better for everyone. They are offensively oriented and risk is seen as necessary for progress.

Look at the damage that conservatives have done to our economy and country by their focus on cheaper rather than better. It's unaffordable.

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

Most successful business managers are liberal. Why? Solving problems is a liberal concept. Actions to produce a better future. Growth. Some successful managers are Republicans, some are Democrat, but all are liberal.

Reduction in waste is a necessary focus in all endeavors. But it's not the basis of success. Growth is. Better products and more satisfied customers. Waste is that which is not connected to those objectives and is best eliminated by refocusing resources to the objectives.

Conservatives view employees as costs. Liberals view them as assets and contributers.

Our present moribund economy is the result of conservatives trying to run business. They instituted shrink to success in business and now want to do the same with government. The Bushwacker destruction is the result. It was and is unaffordable.

 

[PMZ]

Wow! The already uber liberal ACA needs to become even more liberal in your eyes. You're more out to lunch than PMZ. You really want government who has proven to be so inept at so many things to be in charge of health care? Seriously, how badly does government need to fuck something up before you morons open your eyes and realize government is the problem, not the solution? Health care will have to be rationed if government is the single payer. That is an inescapable inevitability.

There is nothing liberal about ACA. There is no attempt to put the government in charge of either health care or health care insurance even though they are in the health care business for the VA and Tricare military health care, and they are in the health care insurance business with Medicare. Both work fine.

Many people thought that the only way that America could really be competitive with the rest of world in health care would be to expand Medicare to everyone and become single payer. Maybe. I think that the big downside would be the transition. All of the present health care insurance business put out of business.

And yet the bill inserts more government into the health care industry. If competition and lower pricing is really what you want than you have to actually allow private businesses compete. Both hospitals and insurance companies. And that means govcernment needs to get out of the way. It means government has to put fewer resistrictions on what insurance must cover, not more, so that consumers can decide what they really want. It means eliminating unncessary taxes on medical device providers so the cost of those service isn't artifically inflated. In short, we need to found out what health care really costs. To find that out government has to get out of the way because Obamacare is ADDING artificial costs into the system, not taking them away.

Health care and health care insurance are notoriously hard to maintain free markets in. Business made that worse by promising employees totally free health care.

Obamacare is the first successful attempt by government to undue the damage businesses did by promising free health care and health care insurance, and put them back into a competitive marketplace.

 

[Bern80]

I'm fine with you changing your worldview to liberal.

Both businesses and governments have products and customers. They both should operate to continually improve their products and better satisfy their customers.

One way that they differ is that businesses compete for customers and price their products for each sale to each customer. Government services are typically those that can't be provided in a competitive market. Military services are an example. So they are not priced per product per customer because it's not practical. On the other hand, nobody would rely in markets that can't be competitive on businesses one rule, make more money regardless of the cost to others.

Conservatives focus on cost cutting. Their worldview is defensive and they hate risk.

Liberals are optimistic and assume that better products and better customer service will lead to growth which is better for everyone. They are offensively oriented and risk is seen as necessary for progress.

Look at the damage that conservatives have done to our economy and country by their focus on cheaper rather than better. It's unaffordable.

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

Most successful business managers are liberal. Why? Solving problems is a liberal concept. Actions to produce a better future. Growth. Some successful managers are Republicans, some are Democrat, but all are liberal.

Reduction in waste is a necessary focus in all endeavors. But it's not the basis of success. Growth is. Better products and more satisfied customers. Waste is that which is not connected to those objectives and is best eliminated by refocusing resources to the objectives.

Conservatives view employees as costs. Liberals view them as assets and contributers.

Our present moribund economy is the result of conservatives trying to run business. They instituted shrink to success in business and now want to do the same with government. The Bushwacker destruction is the result. It was and is unaffordable.

LMFAO. Seriously, I did. Liberals are the WORST problem solvers on earth. Look no further than Obamacare for proof. Look at the gun control debate. We will agree on what a lot of the problems are, but the liberal solutions to them are just plain stupid.

We both want to lower the cost of health care. We already know of an economic meachism that lowers costs; Competition, as you pointed out. That isn't what Obamacare is. What little competition it tried to insert with the exchange it counters with other policies in the bill that hinder competition. Requiring people to purchase a product, mandating what that product must have, mandating what can be charged for it, taxing medical devices. All of those things HINDER competition.

Liberals are good problem solvers?! Thanks bud, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

 

[PMZ]

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

Most successful business managers are liberal. Why? Solving problems is a liberal concept. Actions to produce a better future. Growth. Some successful managers are Republicans, some are Democrat, but all are liberal.

Reduction in waste is a necessary focus in all endeavors. But it's not the basis of success. Growth is. Better products and more satisfied customers. Waste is that which is not connected to those objectives and is best eliminated by refocusing resources to the objectives.

Conservatives view employees as costs. Liberals view them as assets and contributers.

Our present moribund economy is the result of conservatives trying to run business. They instituted shrink to success in business and now want to do the same with government. The Bushwacker destruction is the result. It was and is unaffordable.

LMFAO. Seriously, I did. Liberals are the WORST problem solvers on earth. Look no further than Obamacare for proof. Look at the gun control debate. We will agree on what a lot of the problems are, but the liberal solutions to them are just plain stupid.

We both want to lower the cost of health care. We already know of an economic meachism that lowers costs; Competition, as you pointed out. That isn't what Obamacare is. What little competition it tried to insert with the exchange it counters with other policies in the bill that hinder competition. Requiring people to purchase a product, mandating what that product must have, mandating what can be charged for it, taxing medical devices. All of those things HINDER competition.

Liberals are good problem solvers?! Thanks bud, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

Conservatives are handicapped in recognizing solutions. Exactly where the Republicans, who offer no solutions, want them. That’s the beauty of propaganda. Minions exactly aligned with the program.

Obamacare is a textbook example. If Republicans had come up with it, they would be touting it as the perfect free market solution to our inability to be competitive in global markets.

As they simply can't afford another political defeat, they've turned the propaganda blasters on high, leading to.......... still another massive political defeat. Probably their final swan song.

 

[boedicca]

Health care and health care insurance are notoriously hard to maintain free markets in. Business made that worse by promising employees totally free health care.

Obamacare is the first successful attempt by government to undue the damage businesses did by promising free health care and health care insurance, and put them back into a competitive marketplace.

You are a loon.

We've had NOTHING like free markets in health care and health care insurance ever since FDR put wage controls in place.

ObamaCare is an attempt to fully enslave a formerly free people to The State...it has absolutely nothing to do with actually providing health care to anyone. If it did, they so many cronies would not be desperate for waivers to be exempt from it.

 

[JimBowie1958]

All services offered by business and government could be improved. A given. Human's are imperfect and constantly striving for better.

But, we're stuck with human imperfection no matter what we do. Reality.

But there are certain mechanisms that do a better job of striving for perfection than others. The free market does a better job of that than goods and services provided by government. The reason is because of the direct relationship between the consumer and business in the private sector. As you so aptly put, a private business sinks or swims based on the satisfaction of their customers. There is a direct correlation between their revenue and the satisfaction of their conusmers.

Conversely, there is no such meachinsm with a government provided service. The consumer does not directly consume the service and its revenue is not generated by customers purchasing it. There is no link between what a government employee makes and what they produce. As there is no cause and effect here there is no incentive to be efficient in spending or even provide a superior product. All of this is why government run health care is a really bad idea. If there is one industry where quality matters to people, I would think it would be health care. And we want to set up a system where health care is provided through a mechanism that doesn't respond to consumer demands and has no economic mechanism to insure quality? Thanks, I'll pass.

Make more money regardless of the cost to others is not magic. Competition is. The services typically provided by government are those that competition cannot be maintained for. The military for instance. Private warlords would be an awful idea. Air traffic control. The coordination of private energy companies. FDA regulation. Financial regulation. Health care and health care insurance regulation aka Obamacare

Conservatives have been trained by Republican propaganda media to hate our country and government by having a reflexive response to anything that's not business, of business can do everything better. Just not true. Business is only the answer when competition can be maintained and regulations can protect the consumer.

The concept of less government is an easy sell, because of the only way that government services can be priced. Everybody pays their share rather than by individual transactions which would be totally impractical.

Your first sentence was going well then you fell into the partisan hack mode and accuse Republicans of hating their country when their is no evidence. The neocons LUV our country, ESPECIALLY the federal government and it's teet it stays attached to 24/7, and the Dimocraps also.

Less government is an easy sell, yes in deedy, but it is an especially easy sell when it spends so much money it is more than five times its annual income indebt and many expect it to go bankrupt in the not to distant future, which is undermining faith in the US dollar world wide.

 

[Bern80]

Most successful business managers are liberal. Why? Solving problems is a liberal concept. Actions to produce a better future. Growth. Some successful managers are Republicans, some are Democrat, but all are liberal.

Reduction in waste is a necessary focus in all endeavors. But it's not the basis of success. Growth is. Better products and more satisfied customers. Waste is that which is not connected to those objectives and is best eliminated by refocusing resources to the objectives.

Conservatives view employees as costs. Liberals view them as assets and contributers.

Our present moribund economy is the result of conservatives trying to run business. They instituted shrink to success in business and now want to do the same with government. The Bushwacker destruction is the result. It was and is unaffordable.

LMFAO. Seriously, I did. Liberals are the WORST problem solvers on earth. Look no further than Obamacare for proof. Look at the gun control debate. We will agree on what a lot of the problems are, but the liberal solutions to them are just plain stupid.

We both want to lower the cost of health care. We already know of an economic meachism that lowers costs; Competition, as you pointed out. That isn't what Obamacare is. What little competition it tried to insert with the exchange it counters with other policies in the bill that hinder competition. Requiring people to purchase a product, mandating what that product must have, mandating what can be charged for it, taxing medical devices. All of those things HINDER competition.

Liberals are good problem solvers?! Thanks bud, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

Conservatives are handicapped in recognizing solutions. Exactly where the Republicans, who offer no solutions, want them. That’s the beauty of propaganda. Minions exactly aligned with the program.

Obamacare is a textbook example. If Republicans had come up with it, they would be touting it as the perfect free market solution to our inability to be competitive in global markets.

As they simply can't afford another political defeat, they've turned the propaganda blasters on high, leading to.......... still another massive political defeat. Probably their final swan song.

You keep making these statement that you have zero evidence for. The evidence that you're wrong is pretty obvious. Have you not noticed in our back and forth how every time I point out how wrong you are instead of continuing to defend the point you change the subject? Most managers are liberals? Where's your evidence? Liberals are better problem solvers? Where's your evidence?

Republicans would not tout Obamacare as a free market solution, because IT'S NOT A FREE MARKET SOLUTION. And stop hiding behind the Republicans this and the Republicans that. They have plenty to answer for themselves. But what we're concerned about here is the substance of the actual policy which you clearly can't defend as evidence by the fact here that you have to resort what Republicans did or didn't do as if that has anything to do with the actual policy.

 

[Bern80]

There is nothing liberal about ACA. There is no attempt to put the government in charge of either health care or health care insurance even though they are in the health care business for the VA and Tricare military health care, and they are in the health care insurance business with Medicare. Both work fine.

Many people thought that the only way that America could really be competitive with the rest of world in health care would be to expand Medicare to everyone and become single payer. Maybe. I think that the big downside would be the transition. All of the present health care insurance business put out of business.

And yet the bill inserts more government into the health care industry. If competition and lower pricing is really what you want than you have to actually allow private businesses compete. Both hospitals and insurance companies. And that means govcernment needs to get out of the way. It means government has to put fewer resistrictions on what insurance must cover, not more, so that consumers can decide what they really want. It means eliminating unncessary taxes on medical device providers so the cost of those service isn't artifically inflated. In short, we need to found out what health care really costs. To find that out government has to get out of the way because Obamacare is ADDING artificial costs into the system, not taking them away.

Health care and health care insurance are notoriously hard to maintain free markets in. Business made that worse by promising employees totally free health care.

Obamacare is the first successful attempt by government to undue the damage businesses did by promising free health care and health care insurance, and put them back into a competitive marketplace.

Actually 60 odd years ago when we were as close as we've ever been to a free market for health care it worked quite well. Yes, the problems started when employers started offering it as a benefits. But that bad idea was also spurred by government and yet another democrat who disobeyed the law of unintended consequences, when the national pay freeze was mandated in WWII. This strongly encouraged businesses to provide other benefits instead of cash compensation. And healthcare through your employer is not free. People just don't think about it because it comes right out of their checks and is less expensive than buying it themselves. I agree that has to be undone. But if you really want a competitive market place, you have to undo the parts of Obamacare that stifle competition.

 

[Flopper]

You're confusing me with someone else. I'm not a businessman, or business owner, if that's what you mean. I certainly do believe in growth through quality products and satisfied customers. I'm not really sure what that has to do with taxes. Perhaps it's simply that you keep jumping to new topics every time you see you're so obviously wrong.

I'm fine with you changing your worldview to liberal.

Both businesses and governments have products and customers. They both should operate to continually improve their products and better satisfy their customers.

One way that they differ is that businesses compete for customers and price their products for each sale to each customer. Government services are typically those that can't be provided in a competitive market. Military services are an example. So they are not priced per product per customer because it's not practical. On the other hand, nobody would rely in markets that can't be competitive on businesses one rule, make more money regardless of the cost to others.

Conservatives focus on cost cutting. Their worldview is defensive and they hate risk.

Liberals are optimistic and assume that better products and better customer service will lead to growth which is better for everyone. They are offensively oriented and risk is seen as necessary for progress.

Look at the damage that conservatives have done to our economy and country by their focus on cheaper rather than better. It's unaffordable.

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

My neighbor's son works at McDonald and could be a poster boy for the Tea Party. I've owned 3 businesses and have actively managed investments most of my life, yet my views are mostly liberal.

Conservatives and liberal images are created by the media from the most extreme elements of the political spectrum. If you are seeking the truth, you have to reject stereotypes and cliches.

 

[PMZ]

Health care and health care insurance are notoriously hard to maintain free markets in. Business made that worse by promising employees totally free health care.

Obamacare is the first successful attempt by government to undue the damage businesses did by promising free health care and health care insurance, and put them back into a competitive marketplace.

You are a loon.

We've had NOTHING like free markets in health care and health care insurance ever since FDR put wage controls in place.

ObamaCare is an attempt to fully enslave a formerly free people to The State...it has absolutely nothing to do with actually providing health care to anyone. If it did, they so many cronies would not be desperate for waivers to be exempt from it.

Obamacare is health care insurance regulation plus requiring everyone to be accountable for the cost of their own health care plus subsidies to those who business chooses not to pay enough to to allow them to pay for their own health care.

I don't know which other planet you came from but here the health care business was competitive until full health care insurance was introduced as expected compensation for work. Around the 60s.

Obamacare is a necessary response to business dropping that compensation. In a perfect world it is merely moving what was part of the cost of virtually every American made product to a smaller tax increase.

 

[PMZ]

But there are certain mechanisms that do a better job of striving for perfection than others. The free market does a better job of that than goods and services provided by government. The reason is because of the direct relationship between the consumer and business in the private sector. As you so aptly put, a private business sinks or swims based on the satisfaction of their customers. There is a direct correlation between their revenue and the satisfaction of their conusmers.

Conversely, there is no such meachinsm with a government provided service. The consumer does not directly consume the service and its revenue is not generated by customers purchasing it. There is no link between what a government employee makes and what they produce. As there is no cause and effect here there is no incentive to be efficient in spending or even provide a superior product. All of this is why government run health care is a really bad idea. If there is one industry where quality matters to people, I would think it would be health care. And we want to set up a system where health care is provided through a mechanism that doesn't respond to consumer demands and has no economic mechanism to insure quality? Thanks, I'll pass.

Make more money regardless of the cost to others is not magic. Competition is. The services typically provided by government are those that competition cannot be maintained for. The military for instance. Private warlords would be an awful idea. Air traffic control. The coordination of private energy companies. FDA regulation. Financial regulation. Health care and health care insurance regulation aka Obamacare

Conservatives have been trained by Republican propaganda media to hate our country and government by having a reflexive response to anything that's not business, of business can do everything better. Just not true. Business is only the answer when competition can be maintained and regulations can protect the consumer.

The concept of less government is an easy sell, because of the only way that government services can be priced. Everybody pays their share rather than by individual transactions which would be totally impractical.

Your first sentence was going well then you fell into the partisan hack mode and accuse Republicans of hating their country when their is no evidence. The neocons LUV our country, ESPECIALLY the federal government and it's teet it stays attached to 24/7, and the Dimocraps also.

Less government is an easy sell, yes in deedy, but it is an especially easy sell when it spends so much money it is more than five times its annual income indebt and many expect it to go bankrupt in the not to distant future, which is undermining faith in the US dollar world wide.

Clearly the thoughts of someone who hates our country and it's government.

 

[PMZ]

LMFAO. Seriously, I did. Liberals are the WORST problem solvers on earth. Look no further than Obamacare for proof. Look at the gun control debate. We will agree on what a lot of the problems are, but the liberal solutions to them are just plain stupid.

We both want to lower the cost of health care. We already know of an economic meachism that lowers costs; Competition, as you pointed out. That isn't what Obamacare is. What little competition it tried to insert with the exchange it counters with other policies in the bill that hinder competition. Requiring people to purchase a product, mandating what that product must have, mandating what can be charged for it, taxing medical devices. All of those things HINDER competition.

Liberals are good problem solvers?! Thanks bud, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.

Conservatives are handicapped in recognizing solutions. Exactly where the Republicans, who offer no solutions, want them. That’s the beauty of propaganda. Minions exactly aligned with the program.

Obamacare is a textbook example. If Republicans had come up with it, they would be touting it as the perfect free market solution to our inability to be competitive in global markets.

As they simply can't afford another political defeat, they've turned the propaganda blasters on high, leading to.......... still another massive political defeat. Probably their final swan song.

You keep making these statement that you have zero evidence for. The evidence that you're wrong is pretty obvious. Have you not noticed in our back and forth how every time I point out how wrong you are instead of continuing to defend the point you change the subject? Most managers are liberals? Where's your evidence? Liberals are better problem solvers? Where's your evidence?

Republicans would not tout Obamacare as a free market solution, because IT'S NOT A FREE MARKET SOLUTION. And stop hiding behind the Republicans this and the Republicans that. They have plenty to answer for themselves. But what we're concerned about here is the substance of the actual policy which you clearly can't defend as evidence by the fact here that you have to resort what Republicans did or didn't do as if that has anything to do with the actual policy.

What aspect of Obamacare do you believe is anti enterprise?

 

[PMZ]

I'm fine with you changing your worldview to liberal.

Both businesses and governments have products and customers. They both should operate to continually improve their products and better satisfy their customers.

One way that they differ is that businesses compete for customers and price their products for each sale to each customer. Government services are typically those that can't be provided in a competitive market. Military services are an example. So they are not priced per product per customer because it's not practical. On the other hand, nobody would rely in markets that can't be competitive on businesses one rule, make more money regardless of the cost to others.

Conservatives focus on cost cutting. Their worldview is defensive and they hate risk.

Liberals are optimistic and assume that better products and better customer service will lead to growth which is better for everyone. They are offensively oriented and risk is seen as necessary for progress.

Look at the damage that conservatives have done to our economy and country by their focus on cheaper rather than better. It's unaffordable.

Your notions about conservative vs. liberal beliefs are as backwards as I've ever seen. Most business owners are conservatives. They are the risk takers you speak of. Your liberals are the McDonalds employees of the world screaming that the should get to make a living wage at $15.00/hr for flipping burgers.

The reality is most succesfull businesses engage iin a combination of both cost cutting and product improvement. Cost cutting is usually in the form of eliminating wasteful spending. You don't spend money on that which is innefficient or doesn't help grow the company.

My neighbor's son works at McDonald and could be a poster boy for the Tea Party. I've owned 3 businesses and have actively managed investments most of my life, yet my views are mostly liberal.

Conservatives and liberal images are created by the media from the most extreme elements of the political spectrum. If you are seeking the truth, you have to reject stereotypes and cliches.

I'm all in favor of not painting people with too broad a brush.

However when you claimed to be liberal you revealed quite a bit about yourself and your worldview. It would be foolish for people to think that a statement like that was meaningless.

It's like the cliche use of 'profiling', which is a life skill that everyone is taught and learns from an early age. When it's said benignly it usually comes out 'first impression'.

The adjectives liberal and conservative are meaningful impressions.

 

[Flopper]

And yet the bill inserts more government into the health care industry. If competition and lower pricing is really what you want than you have to actually allow private businesses compete. Both hospitals and insurance companies. And that means govcernment needs to get out of the way. It means government has to put fewer resistrictions on what insurance must cover, not more, so that consumers can decide what they really want. It means eliminating unncessary taxes on medical device providers so the cost of those service isn't artifically inflated. In short, we need to found out what health care really costs. To find that out government has to get out of the way because Obamacare is ADDING artificial costs into the system, not taking them away.

Health care and health care insurance are notoriously hard to maintain free markets in. Business made that worse by promising employees totally free health care.

Obamacare is the first successful attempt by government to undue the damage businesses did by promising free health care and health care insurance, and put them back into a competitive marketplace.

Actually 60 odd years ago when we were as close as we've ever been to a free market for health care it worked quite well. Yes, the problems started when employers started offering it as a benefits. But that bad idea was also spurred by government and yet another democrat who disobeyed the law of unintended consequences, when the national pay freeze was mandated in WWII. This strongly encouraged businesses to provide other benefits instead of cash compensation. And healthcare through your employer is not free. People just don't think about it because it comes right out of their checks and is less expensive than buying it themselves. I agree that has to be undone. But if you really want a competitive market place, you have to undo the parts of Obamacare that stifle competition.

It matters not how we got to this point because we aren't going back. Over the last half century, healthcare has become much more important in people lives and most people believe that everyone is entitle to the miracles of modern medicine science, not just the wealthy.

If you want a really competitive market place in healthcare, you would have to do a lot more than repeal Obamacare. You would have to dump Medicare, Medicaid, employee sponsored healthcare insurance and create an environment where prices would be ruled by the laws of supply and demand. However, that's not going to happen because that's not what Americans want.

 

[Bern80]

A rather timely excerpt from Atlas Shrugged;

"I quit when medicine was placed under State control, some years ago. Do you know what it takes to perform a brain operation? Do you know the kind of skill it demands, and the years of passionate, merciless, excruciating devotion that go to acquire that skill? That was what I would not place at the disposal of men whose sole qualification to rule me was their capacity to spout the fraudulent generalities that got them elected to the privilege of enforcing their wishes at the point of a gun. I would not let them dictate the purpose for which my years of study had been spent, or the conditions of my work, or my choice of patients, or the amount of my reward. I observed that in all the discussions that preceded the enslavement of medicine, men discussed everything—except the desires of the doctors. Men considered only the 'welfare' of the patients, with no thought for those who were to provide it." | Doctor Thomas Hendricks, P3C1

Pretty darn close to what's actually happening and this was predicted decades ago. This is exactly why Obamacare won't and is not working. Obama has completely ignored, and in some cases worsened, the supply side of the equation. You can not address the cost of health care without doing that. Maybe had there been something in there about reforming malpractice litigation. Or how about not taxing medical device manufacturers? How about some modicum of understanding as to how providers and insurers are going to react to your singular focus on the demand side.