Can Obamacare be Fixed?

[PMZ]

Notice it shows the quantity demanded increasing and the price going down.

Holy crap, are you bad at econ.

People will purchase more of it at a lower price and if the price is higher, then they will purchase less of it.

You got 1 right.

Alternatively, when the demand shifts to the left, to higher quantity

When demand shifts to the left, that's a lower quantity.

So you might consider taking a college course in both micro and macro economics.

Man, the irony is thick in here.

Tell me some more about this claim.....

Costs spread out across every product, spread out across every individual, are no costs at all because they are nothing relative to everything.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-the-skeptics-are-winning-40.html#post8003823

Cause that's some funny stuff right there.

You do realize that you are no longer talking about Obamacare, right?

Obamacare is not a product for sale.

Obamacare won't increase demand for healthcare? Really?

Healthcare insurance is a product. Obamacare is not. Why is that confusing to you?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You do realize that you are no longer talking about Obamacare, right?

Obamacare is not a product for sale.

Obamacare won't increase demand for healthcare? Really?

Healthcare insurance is a product. Obamacare is not. Why is that confusing to you?

Obamacare won't increase demand for healthcare?

Then why all the fuss?

Why is that confusing to you?

 

[PMZ]

Obamacare won't increase demand for healthcare? Really?

Healthcare insurance is a product. Obamacare is not. Why is that confusing to you?

Obamacare won't increase demand for healthcare?

Then why all the fuss?

Why is that confusing to you?

You're the one making the fuss. Why are you?

 

[itfitzme]

No it's what a learned in Economics class in high school that apparently you didn't. Look at a supply and demand curve sometime. When quantity demanded goes up, which is essentially the goal of Obamacare, price goes up.

"Decrease in Price causes an increase in quantity demand."[1]

Apparently you didn't learn your material very will.

It says that;

when the quantity demanded increases, then the demand price goes DOWN.

Here is the supply and demand curves for you to look at

Notice it shows the quantity demanded increasing and the price going down.

People will purchase more of it at a lower price and if the price is higher, then they will purchase less of it.

Alternatively, when the demand shifts to the left, to higher quantity, then the equilibrium price follows the supply curve, such that the quantity supplied increases. Then, all other things being equal, the supply price increases.

And, I see that you haven't read the ACA bill, either.

So you might consider taking a college course in both micro and macro economics.

The supply and demand curves for a market do not say that when demanded quantity goes up that price is guaranteed to go up. It just says that, ceterus paribus, all other things being equal, then it will. And, it is on a particular market structure.

What can and does usually happen is that both the supply and demand curves shift at the same time. This is why following the market equilibrium prices doesn't tell us anything about the supply and demand functions. (unfortunately).

The reason for this is that there are four degrees of freedom for the supply and demand curves. There is the demand shift, the quantity demanded, the supply shift and the quantity supplied. Because of this, without some further constraints, there is not telling what will occur when only one is specified as changing.



[1] http://windward.hawaii.edu/facstaff/briggs-p/introduction and syllabus/supplydemandworksheet.pdf

Notice it shows the quantity demanded increasing and the price going down.

Holy crap, are you bad at econ.

People will purchase more of it at a lower price and if the price is higher, then they will purchase less of it.

You got 1 right.

Alternatively, when the demand shifts to the left, to higher quantity

When demand shifts to the left, that's a lower quantity.

So you might consider taking a college course in both micro and macro economics.

Man, the irony is thick in here.

Tell me some more about this claim.....

Costs spread out across every product, spread out across every individual, are no costs at all because they are nothing relative to everything.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/envir...-the-skeptics-are-winning-40.html#post8003823

Cause that's some funny stuff right there.

Your inability to read a graph and do math doesn't change reality. I'm amazed at the level of denial. With a graph showing quantity increasimng and price falling, you are simply unable to grasp the obvious.

What is wrong with you? Do you know?

 

[itfitzme]

Healthcare is far from being a free market ruled by market forces. Both government and insurance distort the free market as they should. Although some people see the free market as a solution to the healthcare situation, I seriously doubt the majority would agree.

Health care has never been a free market commodity. Free market requires that every consumer is perfectly aware of all feature and quality issues so that purchase decisions can be based solely on price. ...

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

 

[itfitzme]

How hard is it for them to read this graph?

 

[PMZ]

How hard is it for them to read this graph?

Math and science have become table stakes for life. That leaves a lot of people not at the table.

 

[dblack]

Health care has never been a free market commodity. Free market requires that every consumer is perfectly aware of all feature and quality issues so that purchase decisions can be based solely on price. ...

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

 

[itfitzme]

How hard is it for them to read this graph?

Math and science have become table stakes for life. That leaves a lot of people not at the table.

Yeah, it is intentional insanity. I do believe that they read that and see quantity decreasing.

 

[itfitzme]

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

I didn't say it did. I said this is incorrect, "It only requires freedom".

Still, now that you mention it, one of the requirements for the ideal of a free market is perfect information. Better stated, it is market imperfections. This includes no limitations to information, a statistically large number of buyers and sellers, and no economies of scale, no imbalance in market leverage, and much more. Contract enforcement is necessary as well.

 

[dblack]

Actually, no.

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

I didn't say it did. I said this is incorrect, "It only requires freedom".

Fair enough. I could argue that freedom is what makes it 'free' - but yeah, you need basic laws protecting private property and individual rights. But, again, my point is that you don't need perfectly informed consumers. You never have that - in any market.

 

[Flopper]

Health care has never been a free market commodity. Free market requires that every consumer is perfectly aware of all feature and quality issues so that purchase decisions can be based solely on price. ...

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

Definition of 'Free Market'
A market economy based on supply and demand with little or no government control. A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sellers are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation.

Free Market Definition | Investopedia

Healthcare is one of the least free markets we have. Most buyers have no idea what they are actually buying, don't know the price, and pay little or nothing directly for the service.

 

[itfitzme]

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

I didn't say it did. I said this is incorrect, "It only requires freedom".

Fair enough. I could argue that freedom is what makes it 'free' - but yeah, you need basic laws protecting private property and individual rights. But, again, my point is that you don't need perfectly informed consumers. You never have that - in any market.

So you're actually a sane person, cool.

"You never have that - in any market." You are right, and this is the point. The concept of a free market that passes of as am actual reality by many seldom exists. It is an ideal model that gives us something to compare the real markets to. Some come closer than others.

Health care is one that is far from being a free market. There are all manner of market imperfections.

 

[PMZ]

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

free mar·ket
noun
1. an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.

Free markets are defined as those where price is the only variable in the consumers purchase decision. That requires perfect information for the consumer, including price of alternatives.

The only free markets left anywhere are commodity markets and even they are compromised.

Take oil for instance. It's not even priced to cover all of the costs of maintaining it's supply.

Probably the only true free market left are slot machines and there nobody even tries to compute the odds of payoff. And if they did they wouldn't be in the market.

Free markets are based on unrestrained price competition and no business, following the one rule of business, make more money regardless of the cost to others, wants competition.

 

[itfitzme]

I'm all for a free market, where it can be. Even close enough. The gov has learned all sorts of thing not to do, like price ceilings and floors. Those are disasters.

On the other hand, monopolies are perfectly not free market entities. They are often the result of economies of scale. Prior to ACA, medical insurance companies were exempted from he anti-trust or monopoly laws. This was one of dozens of issues with the health care market.

 

[PMZ]

The US has always depended on the rule of law to prevent actions in restraint of trade. Every business in the world wants to operate without restrictions against regulated competition. That is so compelling to them that they are blind to its impossibility.

 

[itfitzme]

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

I didn't say it did. I said this is incorrect, "It only requires freedom".

Fair enough. I could argue that freedom is what makes it 'free' - but yeah, you need basic laws protecting private property and individual rights. But, again, my point is that you don't need perfectly informed consumers. You never have that - in any market.

Yeah, I gave it some thought. The "free" in "free market" doesn't mean "freedom". It is just a term that was loosely applied. I agree, it sucks when they do that.

Indeed, "freedom" is mostly an illusion, unless you are Ted Kaczynski. Frankly, if your up for it, homesteading in Alaska is better than free. You get a small payment from the gov. And, with global warming locked in, the weather is just getting more and more hospitable.

There was a great documentary that followed the lives of a few folks in Alaska.

 

[dblack]

I didn't say it did. I said this is incorrect, "It only requires freedom".

Fair enough. I could argue that freedom is what makes it 'free' - but yeah, you need basic laws protecting private property and individual rights. But, again, my point is that you don't need perfectly informed consumers. You never have that - in any market.

Yeah, I gave it some thought. The "free" in "free market" doesn't mean "freedom". It is just a term that was loosely applied. I agree, it sucks when they do that.

Indeed, "freedom" is mostly an illusion, unless you are Ted Kaczynski. Frankly, if your up for it, homesteading in Alaska is better than free. You get a small payment from the gov. And, with global warming locked in, the weather is just getting more and more hospitable.

There was a great documentary that followed the lives of a few folks in Alaska.

uh... ok

 

[itfitzme]

Fair enough. I could argue that freedom is what makes it 'free' - but yeah, you need basic laws protecting private property and individual rights. But, again, my point is that you don't need perfectly informed consumers. You never have that - in any market.

Yeah, I gave it some thought. The "free" in "free market" doesn't mean "freedom". It is just a term that was loosely applied. I agree, it sucks when they do that.

Indeed, "freedom" is mostly an illusion, unless you are Ted Kaczynski. Frankly, if your up for it, homesteading in Alaska is better than free. You get a small payment from the gov. And, with global warming locked in, the weather is just getting more and more hospitable.

There was a great documentary that followed the lives of a few folks in Alaska.

uh... ok

The point being if you really want freedom, try Alaska. Other wise, man is the ultimate pack animal. Freedom is an illusion. In an ideal free market, everyone are price takers. There is no "freedom".

 

[itfitzme]

No, a free market 'requires' no such thing. It only requires freedom.

Actually, no.

What do you mean? What gives you the idea that a free market requires perfectly informed consumers?

Microeconomics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The theory of supply and demand usually assumes that markets are perfectly competitive.

Perfect competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"perfect competition (sometimes called pure competition) describes markets such that no participants are large enough to have the market power to set the price of a homogeneous product. Because the conditions for perfect competition are strict, there are few if any perfectly competitive markets."

"Perfect information - All consumers and producers are assumed to have perfect knowledge of price, utility, quality and production methods of products."