Capitalism is...Slavery; Democracy is Not

[FA_Q2]

"Some do that very American thing and blame politicians and the state, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the unemployed were laid off by private enterprises, the vast majority of homeowners were foreclosed on by private banks, and the vast majority of the still employed have had their benefits and job security reduced by private employers.

Private enterprises that had to account for an overbearing government, insane regulations and ridiculous policies. I notice that the fact that those individuals were free to make the choices that brought them that conclusion was totally left out of the point as well. In order to attain freedom you must be free to both succeed AND fail for without one you are not free to do the other.

Your OP is asinine. Democracy (or more correctly in this case a republic as I assume you are talking about the American system) flourishes BEST when coupled with capitalism. With any other system it is almost certainly a path to disaster as all other economic models do not hinge on true freedom where capitalism requires exactly that. Capitalism is embodied in freedom as much as democracy is.

The funny thing is that you turn to the corruption that is inherent whenever a government grows to large. As government crosses into business, so too does business cross into government and the power of money is quite corrupting. The sad part is that under any other economic system the corruption is far greater, more rampant and harder to control. At least the capitalistic society allows the consumer a direct control over the situation where a socialist society gives you no such choice.

What insane regulations and ridiculous policies of an overbearing government brought down Bear Stearns, or AIG, or Lehman Brothers? Individuals on Wall Street were free enough to inflate and pop a housing/credit bubble that lead to a $13 trillion bailout, and it doesn't matter if you were in favor of the bail out or not. Obviously, a few of us are not free to fail...or maybe they're too free to fail? Maybe they're too rich to fail?

All of them. Current policies and regulations do nothing to protect the actual consumer. Instead, they force the situation that we are in today. Do you have any experience with government regulations? I run a very small company and the useless regulations that I have to follow make up 99% of the 5 THOUSAND page book that I have to follow. Those regulations make it almost impossible for small business to compete. It favors large companies that can absorb the losses, bribe their way out of the regulations or break through them. That stifling of competition is what puts us in these messes. Compound that with the fact that the government then bails out the large companies while allowing the smaller ones to fail and you are creating the EXACT opposite of capitalism. You are, in essence, creating exactly the type of system that you seem to be advocating for…

Capitalism has no use for equality.
Democracy does.
Both have vastly different beliefs about the distribution of power.

Democracy believes in one person; one vote; Capitalism doesn't.

The capitalist believes in one dollar; one vote. Only someone who grew up sucking on capital's teat would conflate the completely equal distribution of political power found in democracy with the notion that individual profit for a few should come at the expense of lost jobs, homes and pensions for many.

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

 

[westwall]

Private enterprises that had to account for an overbearing government, insane regulations and ridiculous policies. I notice that the fact that those individuals were free to make the choices that brought them that conclusion was totally left out of the point as well. In order to attain freedom you must be free to both succeed AND fail for without one you are not free to do the other.

Your OP is asinine. Democracy (or more correctly in this case a republic as I assume you are talking about the American system) flourishes BEST when coupled with capitalism. With any other system it is almost certainly a path to disaster as all other economic models do not hinge on true freedom where capitalism requires exactly that. Capitalism is embodied in freedom as much as democracy is.

The funny thing is that you turn to the corruption that is inherent whenever a government grows to large. As government crosses into business, so too does business cross into government and the power of money is quite corrupting. The sad part is that under any other economic system the corruption is far greater, more rampant and harder to control. At least the capitalistic society allows the consumer a direct control over the situation where a socialist society gives you no such choice.

What insane regulations and ridiculous policies of an overbearing government brought down Bear Stearns, or AIG, or Lehman Brothers? Individuals on Wall Street were free enough to inflate and pop a housing/credit bubble that lead to a $13 trillion bailout, and it doesn't matter if you were in favor of the bail out or not. Obviously, a few of us are not free to fail...or maybe they're too free to fail? Maybe they're too rich to fail?

All of them. Current policies and regulations do nothing to protect the actual consumer. Instead, they force the situation that we are in today. Do you have any experience with government regulations? I run a very small company and the useless regulations that I have to follow make up 99% of the 5 THOUSAND page book that I have to follow. Those regulations make it almost impossible for small business to compete. It favors large companies that can absorb the losses, bribe their way out of the regulations or break through them. That stifling of competition is what puts us in these messes. Compound that with the fact that the government then bails out the large companies while allowing the smaller ones to fail and you are creating the EXACT opposite of capitalism. You are, in essence, creating exactly the type of system that you seem to be advocating for…

Capitalism has no use for equality.
Democracy does.
Both have vastly different beliefs about the distribution of power.

Democracy believes in one person; one vote; Capitalism doesn't.

The capitalist believes in one dollar; one vote. Only someone who grew up sucking on capital's teat would conflate the completely equal distribution of political power found in democracy with the notion that individual profit for a few should come at the expense of lost jobs, homes and pensions for many.

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

Very well said! What georgie can't get through his thick skull is if he lived in a non capitalist country he would allready be dead. No other country would support him. He is too dense to realise he is the slave.

 

[Steelplate]

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

That's bullshit. Whenever one group stacks the deck... there is no EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Free System? you have got to be kidding me. Those CAPITALISTS that you love so much? would squash you in a heartbeat if it mean imposing on their already well established areas of OPPORTUNITY.

The days of "Equal Opportunity" have been gone for a long time. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to nail two things together that have never been nailed together before(What? one in a million... Billion shot?), you are a fucking serf... just like the rest of us.

In short, you are putting your faith in the wrong people. Sure their should be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. But there also should be MINIMAL SAFETY NETS for those that try and fail. We all need to feed our families and keep a roof over their heads. When the risk of failure means total devastation, it's easier to just be a serf... and that's exactly what the Corporate world wants.

 

[FA_Q2]

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

That's bullshit. Whenever one group stacks the deck... there is no EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Free System? you have got to be kidding me. Those CAPITALISTS that you love so much? would squash you in a heartbeat if it mean imposing on their already well established areas of OPPORTUNITY.

The days of "Equal Opportunity" have been gone for a long time. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to nail two things together that have never been nailed together before(What? one in a million... Billion shot?), you are a fucking serf... just like the rest of us.

In short, you are putting your faith in the wrong people. Sure their should be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. But there also should be MINIMAL SAFETY NETS for those that try and fail. We all need to feed our families and keep a roof over their heads. When the risk of failure means total devastation, it's easier to just be a serf... and that's exactly what the Corporate world wants.

Capitalists I love so much? What are you babbling about? Who are these people?

Ill tell you who I put my faith in: ME. That is the only person that you should be looking at to get you to where you need to go. Why must I slave through my labor simply because you do not want to. The opportunity is there. You don’t need to invent anything either. You could excel at you job and you will move up. You could open a store. You could run a simple service business like lawn care, daycare or handyman services. You thing that all these businesses started out at the top? You think that you cannot make excellent money with a basic business? You are wrong. Small businessmen do EXTREMLY well. If you must have a billion dollars to feel like you’ve done well then maybe you have a point. A cool million however is not out of the question and quite obtainable in a very small business setting. ANY skill can be marketed. Have you any idea how much of a killing you can make as a framer/drywaller on homes? If you will not get off your ass and take the opportunity that is your own damn fault.

Don’t talk about safety nets either. You have unemployment, food stamps, government housing, welfare, WIC, cash for heating your home, shelters and hundreds of other programs to carry your ass through the tough times. There is shitloads of help out there for anyone. If that is not enough then you are simply not trying at all. I have been homeless TWICE because of poor choices hitting me at the same time as forces that are outside of my control. I did not sit there and stew in self pity about how the big man was keeping me down and how the world was not fair. Instead, I got off my ass and worked up to a pint where I can own my own large home, a nice car, a family and take a vacation anywhere I damn well please whenever I want. It was never luck, I had to work for it and I’ll be dammed that what is taken from me for those nets you complain about is not enough for you. Too bad because I had to work for everyone else to get that net.

Hell, I know that I could have been rich by now if I truly wanted to. What it comes down to is that I know I also do not want to put in that kind of dedication and hard work. I like my free time and have hit a point where I am happy with my progression. There WILL be tough times, that is what you save for in the times of plenty. The funny thing is that during the booms no one whines. Guess you want the benefits without the costs. Not going to happen.

 

[the_IRF]

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

That's bullshit. Whenever one group stacks the deck... there is no EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Free System? you have got to be kidding me. Those CAPITALISTS that you love so much? would squash you in a heartbeat if it mean imposing on their already well established areas of OPPORTUNITY.

The days of "Equal Opportunity" have been gone for a long time. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to nail two things together that have never been nailed together before(What? one in a million... Billion shot?), you are a fucking serf... just like the rest of us.

In short, you are putting your faith in the wrong people. Sure their should be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. But there also should be MINIMAL SAFETY NETS for those that try and fail. We all need to feed our families and keep a roof over their heads. When the risk of failure means total devastation, it's easier to just be a serf... and that's exactly what the Corporate world wants.

Capitalists I love so much? What are you babbling about? Who are these people?

Ill tell you who I put my faith in: ME. That is the only person that you should be looking at to get you to where you need to go. Why must I slave through my labor simply because you do not want to. The opportunity is there. You don’t need to invent anything either. You could excel at you job and you will move up. You could open a store. You could run a simple service business like lawn care, daycare or handyman services. You thing that all these businesses started out at the top? You think that you cannot make excellent money with a basic business? You are wrong. Small businessmen do EXTREMLY well. If you must have a billion dollars to feel like you’ve done well then maybe you have a point. A cool million however is not out of the question and quite obtainable in a very small business setting. ANY skill can be marketed. Have you any idea how much of a killing you can make as a framer/drywaller on homes? If you will not get off your ass and take the opportunity that is your own damn fault.

Don’t talk about safety nets either. You have unemployment, food stamps, government housing, welfare, WIC, cash for heating your home, shelters and hundreds of other programs to carry your ass through the tough times. There is shitloads of help out there for anyone. If that is not enough then you are simply not trying at all. I have been homeless TWICE because of poor choices hitting me at the same time as forces that are outside of my control. I did not sit there and stew in self pity about how the big man was keeping me down and how the world was not fair. Instead, I got off my ass and worked up to a pint where I can own my own large home, a nice car, a family and take a vacation anywhere I damn well please whenever I want. It was never luck, I had to work for it and I’ll be dammed that what is taken from me for those nets you complain about is not enough for you. Too bad because I had to work for everyone else to get that net.

Hell, I know that I could have been rich by now if I truly wanted to. What it comes down to is that I know I also do not want to put in that kind of dedication and hard work. I like my free time and have hit a point where I am happy with my progression. There WILL be tough times, that is what you save for in the times of plenty. The funny thing is that during the booms no one whines. Guess you want the benefits without the costs. Not going to happen.

Gentlemen,

May i invite you to my 'socialism'.

- There you will be required to know how to start a business. OR your head will go on a pike.

- Your business shall succeed, OR your head will go on a pike.

- You shall not be a victim, OR your head will go on a pike.

All good caves have a dictator who administers 'socialism' for the sake of the cave.

All cave societies are small and the 'socialism' always succeeds.

Large cave societies never succeed with 'socialism' ... it stifles innovation and effective growth to take the leader's head and put it on a pike.

Robert ~

 

[westwall]

Your premise is incorrect,. Capitalism IS equal. What you fail to understand is that capitalism is equal OPERTUNITY, not equal outcome. There is only ONE possible way to ensure equal outcome and it is not bringing everyone up. That is not possible. The only way to ensure equal outcome os to bring upon everyone the full suffering of the lowest. There is no more free a system than capitalism where you can choose to be what you want. You can take any job you please. If that does not suit you then you can start your own company. You are free to be rich or poor, wealthy or not. That choice lies solely within you. The system that you want has no options. Socialism leaves no room for choice. You would be a slave to whatever the government decided that you need to be doing in a system where there is no movement from one class to another.

Sucking off the capitalist teat?? Capitalism has no teat. Perhaps that is your problem. You are looking for your ‘deserved’ handout, the fruits of the tree and have found that there is none. The sad part is that they are there, the difference is that you actually need to work for it in a capitalist society.

That's bullshit. Whenever one group stacks the deck... there is no EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Free System? you have got to be kidding me. Those CAPITALISTS that you love so much? would squash you in a heartbeat if it mean imposing on their already well established areas of OPPORTUNITY.

The days of "Equal Opportunity" have been gone for a long time. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to nail two things together that have never been nailed together before(What? one in a million... Billion shot?), you are a fucking serf... just like the rest of us.

In short, you are putting your faith in the wrong people. Sure their should be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. But there also should be MINIMAL SAFETY NETS for those that try and fail. We all need to feed our families and keep a roof over their heads. When the risk of failure means total devastation, it's easier to just be a serf... and that's exactly what the Corporate world wants.

How about those who don't try anything? Why should we support them? I have no problem helping families in need and in fact do nearly every day. I do have a problem with people like george. He made his bed, he can lay in it. Where does it say that society has any moral obligation to take care of those who don't, heve never, and will never contribute. What bright shiny light shines out of their ass that entitles them to the money of people who do work?

 

[georgephillip]

If you mean how does society deal with the developmentally delayed and the physically disabled, society doesn't "owe" them anything. It is because we are human and care about our fellow citizens that we provide whatever assistance they need to be able to provide for themselves. In those cases where they can't take care of themselves society will.

Now, if you are talking about unskilled lazy bums who choose not to work, well, they are free to starve. Society doesn't owe you anything either. More importantly you are capable of helping yourself, you just choose not to. Do you see the difference? No? I didn't think you would.

In fact progressives do believe society owes the disabled a human level of existence while conservatives believe society owes hedge funds honchos 15% tax rates for speculating on food and oil.

The fact you've been drinking the capitalist kool-aid since you learned to read means you're too brainwashed see the difference.

Nope. you're wrong. Progressives believe in modern slavery which is welfare. Conservatives believe that if you can't take of yourself society will take care of you. That is what makes us human. No conservative was in favour of Bush and Obama's bailing out of the banks, AIG, and the auto companies. That was progressives and union operatives fighting for that. We were all in favour of all of them failing.

We also want to see those same individuals in prison where they belong. You, though are able to take care of yourself. You choose not to beause you are a lazy bum. Bums live under bridges and go hungry.

I think you're wrong about welfare.

Slavery is when you've worked hard all your life yet you are wiped out financially by catastrophic medical expenses stemming from corporate-written law which elevates profit over everything.

When you say "no conservative was in favor of Bush and Obama's bailing out the banks..." that's only true if you define "conservative" as someone who opposed the bail outs.

Are Dick Cheney and Hank Paulson now considered RINOs?

There were progressives and union operative encouraging the bail outs, just as there were conservative Wall Street executives doing the same thing.

It's a class issue.
Most of the rich supported bail outs because their wealth was increased at the expense of taxpayers.
Socialize the cost; Privatize the profit.

Finally, we're going to have to agree to disagree about bums and bridges.
You see yourself as playing by the rules and working hard.

I see the rules as blue prints for slavery.

 

[georgephillip]

That's bullshit. Whenever one group stacks the deck... there is no EQUAL OPPORTUNITY.

Free System? you have got to be kidding me. Those CAPITALISTS that you love so much? would squash you in a heartbeat if it mean imposing on their already well established areas of OPPORTUNITY.

The days of "Equal Opportunity" have been gone for a long time. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out how to nail two things together that have never been nailed together before(What? one in a million... Billion shot?), you are a fucking serf... just like the rest of us.

In short, you are putting your faith in the wrong people. Sure their should be EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. But there also should be MINIMAL SAFETY NETS for those that try and fail. We all need to feed our families and keep a roof over their heads. When the risk of failure means total devastation, it's easier to just be a serf... and that's exactly what the Corporate world wants.

Capitalists I love so much? What are you babbling about? Who are these people?

Ill tell you who I put my faith in: ME. That is the only person that you should be looking at to get you to where you need to go. Why must I slave through my labor simply because you do not want to. The opportunity is there. You don’t need to invent anything either. You could excel at you job and you will move up. You could open a store. You could run a simple service business like lawn care, daycare or handyman services. You thing that all these businesses started out at the top? You think that you cannot make excellent money with a basic business? You are wrong. Small businessmen do EXTREMLY well. If you must have a billion dollars to feel like you’ve done well then maybe you have a point. A cool million however is not out of the question and quite obtainable in a very small business setting. ANY skill can be marketed. Have you any idea how much of a killing you can make as a framer/drywaller on homes? If you will not get off your ass and take the opportunity that is your own damn fault.

Don’t talk about safety nets either. You have unemployment, food stamps, government housing, welfare, WIC, cash for heating your home, shelters and hundreds of other programs to carry your ass through the tough times. There is shitloads of help out there for anyone. If that is not enough then you are simply not trying at all. I have been homeless TWICE because of poor choices hitting me at the same time as forces that are outside of my control. I did not sit there and stew in self pity about how the big man was keeping me down and how the world was not fair. Instead, I got off my ass and worked up to a pint where I can own my own large home, a nice car, a family and take a vacation anywhere I damn well please whenever I want. It was never luck, I had to work for it and I’ll be dammed that what is taken from me for those nets you complain about is not enough for you. Too bad because I had to work for everyone else to get that net.

Hell, I know that I could have been rich by now if I truly wanted to. What it comes down to is that I know I also do not want to put in that kind of dedication and hard work. I like my free time and have hit a point where I am happy with my progression. There WILL be tough times, that is what you save for in the times of plenty. The funny thing is that during the booms no one whines. Guess you want the benefits without the costs. Not going to happen.

Gentlemen,

May i invite you to my 'socialism'.

- There you will be required to know how to start a business. OR your head will go on a pike.

- Your business shall succeed, OR your head will go on a pike.

- You shall not be a victim, OR your head will go on a pike.

All good caves have a dictator who administers 'socialism' for the sake of the cave.

All cave societies are small and the 'socialism' always succeeds.

Large cave societies never succeed with 'socialism' ... it stifles innovation and effective growth to take the leader's head and put it on a pike.

Robert ~

Can you name a current political "leader" whose head on a pike would stifle innovation?

 

[Steelplate]

How about those who don't try anything? Why should we support them? I have no problem helping families in need and in fact do nearly every day. I do have a problem with people like george. He made his bed, he can lay in it. Where does it say that society has any moral obligation to take care of those who don't, heve never, and will never contribute. What bright shiny light shines out of their ass that entitles them to the money of people who do work?

I haven't been on the board long enough to know what George's situation is.

My stance on welfare is a logical one. If you are a welfare recipient, you will either work or get educated trained(at your expense) to get benefits.

It really is no skin off my nose that a relatively small percentage of those on Public Assistance abuse it. The entire Federal Budget for Welfare is $22B. That is a drop in the bucket of our debt and it helps many more legitimate people than it protects people who abuse the system.

But because of all the bullshit I hear from the right.... and the fact that I recognize that the right are also fellow citizens... that is my stance now.

Most of us "lefties" work for a living too.

 

[Contumacious]

Slavery is when you've worked hard all your life yet you are wiped out financially by catastrophic medical expenses stemming from corporate-written law which elevates profit over everything..

Slavery is having to work from January to July to pay for the gargantuan welfare/warfare state.

.

 

[Steelplate]

Capitalists I love so much? What are you babbling about? Who are these people?

Ill tell you who I put my faith in: ME. That is the only person that you should be looking at to get you to where you need to go. Why must I slave through my labor simply because you do not want to. The opportunity is there. You don’t need to invent anything either. You could excel at you job and you will move up. You could open a store. You could run a simple service business like lawn care, daycare or handyman services. You thing that all these businesses started out at the top? You think that you cannot make excellent money with a basic business? You are wrong. Small businessmen do EXTREMLY well. If you must have a billion dollars to feel like you’ve done well then maybe you have a point. A cool million however is not out of the question and quite obtainable in a very small business setting. ANY skill can be marketed. Have you any idea how much of a killing you can make as a framer/drywaller on homes? If you will not get off your ass and take the opportunity that is your own damn fault.

Don’t talk about safety nets either. You have unemployment, food stamps, government housing, welfare, WIC, cash for heating your home, shelters and hundreds of other programs to carry your ass through the tough times. There is shitloads of help out there for anyone. If that is not enough then you are simply not trying at all. I have been homeless TWICE because of poor choices hitting me at the same time as forces that are outside of my control. I did not sit there and stew in self pity about how the big man was keeping me down and how the world was not fair. Instead, I got off my ass and worked up to a pint where I can own my own large home, a nice car, a family and take a vacation anywhere I damn well please whenever I want. It was never luck, I had to work for it and I’ll be dammed that what is taken from me for those nets you complain about is not enough for you. Too bad because I had to work for everyone else to get that net.

Hell, I know that I could have been rich by now if I truly wanted to. What it comes down to is that I know I also do not want to put in that kind of dedication and hard work. I like my free time and have hit a point where I am happy with my progression. There WILL be tough times, that is what you save for in the times of plenty. The funny thing is that during the booms no one whines. Guess you want the benefits without the costs. Not going to happen.

We've all had to work.... that's the bullshit that I can't stand from you guys. You see someone with a MORE liberal perspective than you and right away they are a deadbeat crackhead that's been unemployed from the time they came out of the womb.

Hey... I want small businesses to flourish. Unfortunately, that means regulating the big boys.

As far as "Safety Nets".... I call bullshit. You are correct that those safety nets are in place at this time... but if you guys get your way... they will be gone. It's not a matter of "it's not enough".... it's a matter of preserving them.

 

[dblack]

Hey... I want small businesses to flourish. Unfortunately, that means regulating the big boys.

But have you noticed that such regulation almost always impacts small businesses more? It almost always creates a greater impediment to companies with lower operating capital and less lawyers and lobbyists to protect their interests. The nature of 'regulation' protects the status quo, squelches innovation and keeps the vested interests (those with the money and power to 'guide' the regulatory process) in control.

 

[Steelplate]

Hey... I want small businesses to flourish. Unfortunately, that means regulating the big boys.

But have you noticed that such regulation almost always impacts small businesses more? It almost always creates a greater impediment to companies with lower operating capital and less lawyers and lobbyists to protect their interests. The nature of 'regulation' protects the status quo, squelches innovation and keeps the vested interests (those with the money and power to 'guide' the regulatory process) in control.

So... how do suggest that the playing field gets leveled? Obviously, the big boys already have the assets to destroy any Competition that comes their way. So if you de-regulate everything, it like trying to run a race with Carl Lewis and giving him a 10 yard head start and expecting competition.

 

[dblack]

So... how do suggest that the playing field gets leveled?

By doing the opposite of what you suggest. First and foremost, we need to identify and eliminate all the state policies that prop up established interests. That means reforming our tax policy to simple revenue generation for the state, rather than a byzantine game designed to manipulate people and markets. It means putting the brakes on government bailouts. If a company is 'too big to fail', then it's too goddamned big and the sooner it fails, the better. We need to get over this non-sense that the state is the 'caretaker' of the economy.

We also need to look at some of the basic legal structures forming corporate law. Limited liability is a problem, and corporate 'personhood' should be re-addressed as well. The job of government is to make the rules, the rules that we all must follow. It shouldn't be in the 'business' of deciding who wins and loses in a given market - and that's what a great many of our regulatory efforts boil down to. That's why so many billions of dollars are spent by business trying steer such efforts in their favor.

 

[Steelplate]

But what you aren't getting is that the damage has already been done. You say we don't want government to decide winners and losers... but through corporate lobbying and Campaign buying... it's already done. IMO, there's no way to just "start over", when these huge entities already have the world by the short hairs.

 

[dblack]

But what you aren't getting is that the damage has already been done. You say we don't want government to decide winners and losers... but through corporate lobbying and Campaign buying... it's already done. IMO, there's no way to just "start over", when these huge entities already have the world by the short hairs.

Well, in my opinion, what you're not getting is that they have the world by the short hairs by virtue of the state policy that props them up. Even if you don't think it would be enough, surely removing those perks is the first step in changing things, eh? Giving with one hand and taking away with the other seems hypocritical at best, wasteful and counterproductive at worst.

 

[Steelplate]

No... I propose an overhaul of all subsidies, regulations and the like, look over them and see where they are not meeting the needs of small business and how it curtailing their progress... then rewrite them so that they do what they are supposed to do.

Not just ham handedly wipe the whole slate clean and expect small business to flourish while the big boys diminish somehow. Sounds like magical thinking... sorry... don't mean to be rude.

 

[dblack]

Not just ham handedly wipe the whole slate clean and expect small business to flourish while the big boys diminish somehow. Sounds like magical thinking... sorry... don't mean to be rude.

Well, I didn't suggest wiping the whole slate clean, so you're not being rude - just wrong.

But I do think getting rid of corporate welfare will make a big difference. It's not magic, just a fact that they currently enjoy huge advantages due to bad regulation, and without those advantages smaller companies will be better able to compete with them.

 

[westwall]

In fact progressives do believe society owes the disabled a human level of existence while conservatives believe society owes hedge funds honchos 15% tax rates for speculating on food and oil.

The fact you've been drinking the capitalist kool-aid since you learned to read means you're too brainwashed see the difference.

Nope. you're wrong. Progressives believe in modern slavery which is welfare. Conservatives believe that if you can't take of yourself society will take care of you. That is what makes us human. No conservative was in favour of Bush and Obama's bailing out of the banks, AIG, and the auto companies. That was progressives and union operatives fighting for that. We were all in favour of all of them failing.

We also want to see those same individuals in prison where they belong. You, though are able to take care of yourself. You choose not to beause you are a lazy bum. Bums live under bridges and go hungry.

I think you're wrong about welfare.

Slavery is when you've worked hard all your life yet you are wiped out financially by catastrophic medical expenses stemming from corporate-written law which elevates profit over everything.

When you say "no conservative was in favor of Bush and Obama's bailing out the banks..." that's only true if you define "conservative" as someone who opposed the bail outs.

Are Dick Cheney and Hank Paulson now considered RINOs?

There were progressives and union operative encouraging the bail outs, just as there were conservative Wall Street executives doing the same thing.

It's a class issue.
Most of the rich supported bail outs because their wealth was increased at the expense of taxpayers.
Socialize the cost; Privatize the profit.

Finally, we're going to have to agree to disagree about bums and bridges.
You see yourself as playing by the rules and working hard.

I see the rules as blue prints for slavery.

Slavery now is self imposed. Free people have the ability to do as they please when they please. Slaves don't. Slaves are not able to do as they wish or travel as they wish when they wish. Their masters don't allow it. Their masters only give them enough for subsistence level survival. That is welfare. Welfare is the new paradigm of slavery.

You claim I am a slave because i worked hard "for the man" and now I have enough money I can do what I wan to when I want to. For th record I worked "for the man" for all of two years. After that I worked for a environmental company till I struck off on my own. I have been either self employed or teaching (once again "for the man") for 40 years. Well, actually I am now basically retired but I still work for those in need (usually in cases against "the man") and have the luxury of travelling to Europe for races when I wish or as we did last month I took in both the Spanish and Monaco Grands Prix races and went to the French Open in between.

I don't see how that makes me a slave. I see you as the slave because you can't do anything I can do.

 

[FA_Q2]

Capitalists I love so much? What are you babbling about? Who are these people?

Ill tell you who I put my faith in: ME. That is the only person that you should be looking at to get you to where you need to go. Why must I slave through my labor simply because you do not want to. The opportunity is there. You don’t need to invent anything either. You could excel at you job and you will move up. You could open a store. You could run a simple service business like lawn care, daycare or handyman services. You thing that all these businesses started out at the top? You think that you cannot make excellent money with a basic business? You are wrong. Small businessmen do EXTREMLY well. If you must have a billion dollars to feel like you’ve done well then maybe you have a point. A cool million however is not out of the question and quite obtainable in a very small business setting. ANY skill can be marketed. Have you any idea how much of a killing you can make as a framer/drywaller on homes? If you will not get off your ass and take the opportunity that is your own damn fault.

Don’t talk about safety nets either. You have unemployment, food stamps, government housing, welfare, WIC, cash for heating your home, shelters and hundreds of other programs to carry your ass through the tough times. There is shitloads of help out there for anyone. If that is not enough then you are simply not trying at all. I have been homeless TWICE because of poor choices hitting me at the same time as forces that are outside of my control. I did not sit there and stew in self pity about how the big man was keeping me down and how the world was not fair. Instead, I got off my ass and worked up to a pint where I can own my own large home, a nice car, a family and take a vacation anywhere I damn well please whenever I want. It was never luck, I had to work for it and I’ll be dammed that what is taken from me for those nets you complain about is not enough for you. Too bad because I had to work for everyone else to get that net.

Hell, I know that I could have been rich by now if I truly wanted to. What it comes down to is that I know I also do not want to put in that kind of dedication and hard work. I like my free time and have hit a point where I am happy with my progression. There WILL be tough times, that is what you save for in the times of plenty. The funny thing is that during the booms no one whines. Guess you want the benefits without the costs. Not going to happen.

We've all had to work.... that's the bullshit that I can't stand from you guys. You see someone with a MORE liberal perspective than you and right away they are a deadbeat crackhead that's been unemployed from the time they came out of the womb.

Hey... I want small businesses to flourish. Unfortunately, that means regulating the big boys.

As far as "Safety Nets".... I call bullshit. You are correct that those safety nets are in place at this time... but if you guys get your way... they will be gone. It's not a matter of "it's not enough".... it's a matter of preserving them.

I don’t see someone who is liberal and immediately assign them the title of ‘deadbeat crackhead.’ I DO attack those policies that encourage those that are deadbeat crackheads to continue at the expense of those that are productive. I call bullshit on preserving the current safety nets as well. You give me this crap about how if the conservatives got their way then they would be gone not recognizing the simple fact that of liberals got their way they would be gone as well. The difference is that liberals want the safety nets to crash in on themselves because we can no longer afford the benefits. Medicare is bankrupt and NEEDS some basic changes or it is going to fail. You’re type refuses to brook any changes in that program whatsoever. The only real change that has even been hinted at by the left is rising the age to a point where it is no longer useful. How is that a safety net? What we need is a real conversation about actual safety nets that are meant for just that, not designed to keep people in the same state indefinitely.

This is all a straw man anyway. Nothing in ANY of my statements said anything about taking any safety nets away. The OP claims that capitalism is slavery, an asinine concept at its core. THAT was what I was refuting.


As far as regulating the big boys, I think dblack addressed that quite well. I would only add that addressing the subsidies is only a start and a rather bad one at that as it is not addressing the problem but rather the symptoms. Take the subsidy away and there will be another form to replace it. Subsidies are not the core issue anyway but legislation that essentially forces entire industries to become dominated by a few large companies. You are looking at the symptoms and railing against how bad they are without realizing the subsidies are a symptom of government trying to control the market. Government needs to be scaled back to their actual purpose: protecting the people from that which they cannot protect themselves and providing general needed services the private sector cannot provide. That certainly requires certain regulations that must be in place. That does not require regulations that exist today. Did you know that there is an actual regulation that covers wiping a child’s ass? Someone somewhere was PAID to come up with the proper way to wipe an ass and many more people are paid on a daily basis to enforce that regulation.