Charged with manslaughter for texts and phone convos?

[Michelle420]

I don't have a answer one way or the other on the personal responsibility in these sorts of things. I think charging her with manslaughter could be a slippery slope. But the thought that she could get away with no consequences, to resume her sociopathic life is also highly disturbing.

The thing with social media is this - we haven't evolved the ethics to handle it and we're only gradually realizing some of the problems associated with it. And, while the personal responsibility thing is fine for adults - these are kids. They aren't by definition mature and haven't yet developed the capacity to make good decisions at every level. Personal responsibility should be in line with the person's ability to make appropriate decisions imo. You tell a 3 yr old how to cross the street, that cars are dangerous but you sure don't let him out on the street unsupervised right?

If a person is so weak that they would kill themselves because some girl with big eyebrows wants her too, then maybe he isn't mature enough to handle social media. Where was his parents?

Suicide isn't as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound. During the last 8 years I was in the Navy, I was a Dug and Alcohol Program Advisor. Part of that training was Suicide Prevention because people with substance abuse problems generally have emotional problems as well. There are LOTS of factors that can contribute, and someone telling an already depressed person (especially when they are supposed to be emotionally supportive) to kill themselves might be just the little push that they need to go through with the act.

People who commit suicide are generally at the end of their rope and can see no other way to "fix" things other than to kill themselves, because they feel useless and unwanted. His girlfriend telling him to off himself can only exacerbate those feelings.

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

This is all cofefe.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is disturbing though, that such a blatent sociopath is free to go and suffers no consequences for HER actions.

by actions, you mean words?

Words require the act(ion) of typing, opening one's mouth, framing a sentence.....

At what point does it collusion with a criminal act to talk a person into it? The person is responsible for the act of killing, but is there no responsibility for the one who colluded?

So if I convince you to rob a bank it's my fault?

 

[Skull Pilot]

If a person is so weak that they would kill themselves because some girl with big eyebrows wants her too, then maybe he isn't mature enough to handle social media. Where was his parents?

Suicide isn't as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound. During the last 8 years I was in the Navy, I was a Dug and Alcohol Program Advisor. Part of that training was Suicide Prevention because people with substance abuse problems generally have emotional problems as well. There are LOTS of factors that can contribute, and someone telling an already depressed person (especially when they are supposed to be emotionally supportive) to kill themselves might be just the little push that they need to go through with the act.

People who commit suicide are generally at the end of their rope and can see no other way to "fix" things other than to kill themselves, because they feel useless and unwanted. His girlfriend telling him to off himself can only exacerbate those feelings.

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

 

[TNHarley]

If a person is so weak that they would kill themselves because some girl with big eyebrows wants her too, then maybe he isn't mature enough to handle social media. Where was his parents?

Suicide isn't as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound. During the last 8 years I was in the Navy, I was a Dug and Alcohol Program Advisor. Part of that training was Suicide Prevention because people with substance abuse problems generally have emotional problems as well. There are LOTS of factors that can contribute, and someone telling an already depressed person (especially when they are supposed to be emotionally supportive) to kill themselves might be just the little push that they need to go through with the act.

People who commit suicide are generally at the end of their rope and can see no other way to "fix" things other than to kill themselves, because they feel useless and unwanted. His girlfriend telling him to off himself can only exacerbate those feelings.

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

Survival is a natural instinct. Age isn't a requirement. You can throw a new born baby in the water and they will try to get to air.
I understand the humane side to this. I really do. BUT how far does it go? Why should that persons problems make another lose rights?

 

[Michelle420]

Suicide isn't as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound. During the last 8 years I was in the Navy, I was a Dug and Alcohol Program Advisor. Part of that training was Suicide Prevention because people with substance abuse problems generally have emotional problems as well. There are LOTS of factors that can contribute, and someone telling an already depressed person (especially when they are supposed to be emotionally supportive) to kill themselves might be just the little push that they need to go through with the act.

People who commit suicide are generally at the end of their rope and can see no other way to "fix" things other than to kill themselves, because they feel useless and unwanted. His girlfriend telling him to off himself can only exacerbate those feelings.

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

 

[Michelle420]

Suicide isn't as cut and dried as you are trying to make it sound. During the last 8 years I was in the Navy, I was a Dug and Alcohol Program Advisor. Part of that training was Suicide Prevention because people with substance abuse problems generally have emotional problems as well. There are LOTS of factors that can contribute, and someone telling an already depressed person (especially when they are supposed to be emotionally supportive) to kill themselves might be just the little push that they need to go through with the act.

People who commit suicide are generally at the end of their rope and can see no other way to "fix" things other than to kill themselves, because they feel useless and unwanted. His girlfriend telling him to off himself can only exacerbate those feelings.

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

Survival is a natural instinct. Age isn't a requirement. You can throw a new born baby in the water and they will try to get to air.
I understand the humane side to this. I really do. BUT how far does it go? Why should that persons problems make another lose rights?

Decency. If you are capable of it, apply it to someone in need.

 

[TNHarley]

Its still HIS problem. No amount of spin can change the fact that it is his fault solely on taking his own life.
This is a pandoras box.
Next thing you know, I will be suing GM for getting drunk and hitting a pedestrian. AWESOME

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

 

[Michelle420]

It's readily apparent that you have never been around suicidal people or had to work with them. I have, and I can tell you that suicide is a lot more complicated than someone just deciding to off themselves. It is rarely a spur of the moment event and generally takes several weeks to several months to come to that decision.

During that period of time, there are definite warning signs that a person is suicidal, and it is only through the intervention of the people around them that it can be stopped.

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

 

[TNHarley]

So their mental problems are now mine? Horseshit

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

 

[Michelle420]

If you know someone has mental problems though why would you encourage suicide? My sister did commit suicide harley and it's not a simple they are weak kind of thing that leads to it.

Also age factors into some situations, kids and teens brains are not fully formed and neither is emotional maturity. There are alot of things to consider, but why anyone would want to encourage a person to kill them self is alarming to me.

Sometimes people feel depressed and they don't feel like they have a reason or connection or purpose for living and they reach out to someone hoping that person might care.

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

 

[Skull Pilot]

and if that person doesn't care and tells you to kill yourself you stop talking to that person

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

 

[Michelle420]

You do if you are mentally healthy and capable of understanding someone does not have your best interest at heart. But when you are depressed and or even mentally ill you may feel like you are not worth anything and you are looking for help one last person to at least tell you you are worth it, it is unforgivable to me that a person in a mentally healthy state would tell someone who is running out of hope to kill themself.

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

It's a form or coercion, he turned to his girlfriend who he loved. She shouldn't have done that. I am glad she is being held responsible, she may need some form of mental health care herself. A normal person would have helped him.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't condone what she did. Nor am I trying to justify it. I just think a criminal charge is completely ridiculous. Someone's state of mind doesn't trample another's rights.
I hope she feels like a pos of shit the rest of her life

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

It's a form or coercion, he turned to his girlfriend who he loved. She shouldn't have done that. I am glad she is being held responsible, she may need some form of mental health care herself. A normal person would have helped him.

I don't buy that.

If I told you to rob a bank so you could pay your bills and you did I am not responsible.

If I told you to jump off a bridge because you were whining about how miserable you were and you did I am not responsible

 

[TNHarley]

yes, you gain responsibility for a person killing themselves over words..
Emotion over liberty and personal responsibility
Yayyy America!

 

[Michelle420]

What motive can a sane person have in telling a depressed or mentally ill person to kill themself.

What was the intention, what kind of outcome did they expect in telling an unstable person who trusted them and was hurting, vulnerable and not mentally well, to tell them to kill themself? Why not tell a family member of the unstable person so they could be on alert, or someone else who actually cared about this person.

It seems to me our society has lost the concept of decency and good citizenship. Someone's hurting you should try to help even if the help means getting someone else involved to help. How is telling them to kill themself helpful? Couldn't she have called the person family, the police, anyone who could step up and help?

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

It's a form or coercion, he turned to his girlfriend who he loved. She shouldn't have done that. I am glad she is being held responsible, she may need some form of mental health care herself. A normal person would have helped him.

I don't buy that.

If I told you to rob a bank so you could pay your bills and you did I am not responsible.

If I told you to jump off a bridge because you were whining about how miserable you were and you did I am not responsible

We disagree with each other on this matter. It's just going in circles now. I won't convince you and you won;t convince me. I've said what I have to say about it. I care deeply about this issue since my own sister killed herself. I think people need to alert family members, police and helpers, not encourage someone to kill themself. I think it's criminal to suggest this to someone who is unstable. I acknowledge that you don;t agree.

 

[strollingbones]

it was not just someone on social media....she was his g/f and he was in love.....think back to that dangerous age where things are black or white ...day or night and they live in the moment

 

[TNHarley]

Idk drifter. She sounds like a sociopath

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

It's a form or coercion, he turned to his girlfriend who he loved. She shouldn't have done that. I am glad she is being held responsible, she may need some form of mental health care herself. A normal person would have helped him.

I don't buy that.

If I told you to rob a bank so you could pay your bills and you did I am not responsible.

If I told you to jump off a bridge because you were whining about how miserable you were and you did I am not responsible

We disagree with each other on this matter. It's just going in circles now. I won't convince you and you won;t convince me. I've said what I have to say about it. I care deeply about this issue since my own sister killed herself. I think people need to alert family members, police and helpers, not encourage someone to kill themself. I think it's criminal to suggest this to someone who is unstable. I acknowledge that you don;t agree.

They had policies like that in the USSR as well, drifter.

 

[Michelle420]

yes, you gain responsibility for a person killing themselves over words..
Emotion over liberty and personal responsibility
Yayyy America!

Someone who is mentally unstable is not able to make rational decisions, this is why the dmv requires people who have had mental health treatment to supply doctors notes periodically in order to retain a drivers license. I think it is reasonable to expect any citizen to not encourage someone to kill them self.

 

[Michelle420]

She does. Charles Manson was convicted with conspiracy to commit murder. He never murdered anyone himself.

this guy wasn't murdered
he chose to commit suicide

It's a form or coercion, he turned to his girlfriend who he loved. She shouldn't have done that. I am glad she is being held responsible, she may need some form of mental health care herself. A normal person would have helped him.

I don't buy that.

If I told you to rob a bank so you could pay your bills and you did I am not responsible.

If I told you to jump off a bridge because you were whining about how miserable you were and you did I am not responsible

We disagree with each other on this matter. It's just going in circles now. I won't convince you and you won;t convince me. I've said what I have to say about it. I care deeply about this issue since my own sister killed herself. I think people need to alert family members, police and helpers, not encourage someone to kill themself. I think it's criminal to suggest this to someone who is unstable. I acknowledge that you don;t agree.

They had policies like that in the USSR as well, drifter.

I don;t feel ashamed for caring about people harley. I do care, I think people are worthwhile.