Cheney Calls for full Release of Memos

[del]

Dick Cheney is what a colon doctor would call a "full release."

and you're what a proctologist would call a "trophy".

 

[catzmeow]

Really? Doesn't sound like it to me.

So, you mean, it doesn't sound like when CIA interrogators kicked Mullah Habibullah repeatedly in the groin until his thigh muscle tore apart, and a blood clot killed him?

Because, that isn't torture, either, right?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

The Japanese practice of waterboarding was entirely different than what was done here. You can't compare the two issues, you need to read more about what was actually done in the water boarding sessions on American troops by the Japanese. If you did so, you would know they weren't comparable.

Funny, because Chase Nielson's account is pretty close to what we do now.

This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.

Really? Doesn't sound like it to me.

So you are going to trust the CIA to report every single action taken by every single interrogator? Or does it make it better if we don't hit the guy while he ingesting water? When one of these guys fucks up and actually drowns someone, do you think we would hear about it? The process is the same.

 

[Iriemon]

It depends on how you define 'torture', water boarding is not torture. No one is advocating real torture of anyone, but it's easier to be irrational than to really talk about the true topic. If they find evidence of real torture, then you would see a different reaction, justifiably so.

Tell that to Colonel Chase Nielson. I'm pretty sure that he would say it was torture.

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[69] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[29]

This doesn't sound to me like what was described during the CIA questioning sessions.

This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of ‘suffocation and incipient panic,’ i.e., the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of 12 to 24 inches. ... The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated.

“Although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain. ... Although the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition infliction of severe mental pain or suffering[/B]. ... Indeed, you have advised us that the relief is almost immediate when the cloth is removed from the nose and mouth. In the absence of prolonged mental harm, no severe mental pain or suffering would have been inflicted, and the use of these procedures would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute.”

Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

a footnote to a 2005 memo made it clear that the rules were not always followed. Waterboarding was used “with far greater frequency than initially indicated” and with “large volumes of water” rather than the small quantities in the rules, one memo says, citing a 2004 report by the C.I.A.’s inspector general.

Obama releases details of post-9/11 interrogations | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Latest News

What's the difference?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

Tell that to Colonel Chase Nielson. I'm pretty sure that he would say it was torture.

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[69] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[29]

This doesn't sound to me like what was described during the CIA questioning sessions.

This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of ‘suffocation and incipient panic,’ i.e., the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs. During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of 12 to 24 inches. ... The sensation of drowning is immediately relieved by the removal of the cloth. The procedure may then be repeated.

“Although the subject may experience the fear or panic associated with the feeling of drowning, the waterboard does not inflict physical pain. ... Although the waterboard constitutes a threat of imminent death, prolonged mental harm must nonetheless result to violate the statutory prohibition infliction of severe mental pain or suffering[/B]. ... Indeed, you have advised us that the relief is almost immediate when the cloth is removed from the nose and mouth. In the absence of prolonged mental harm, no severe mental pain or suffering would have been inflicted, and the use of these procedures would not constitute torture within the meaning of the statute.”

Interrogation Techniques - Interactive Graphic - NYTimes.com

a footnote to a 2005 memo made it clear that the rules were not always followed. Waterboarding was used “with far greater frequency than initially indicated” and with “large volumes of water” rather than the small quantities in the rules, one memo says, citing a 2004 report by the C.I.A.’s inspector general.

Obama releases details of post-9/11 interrogations | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Latest News

What's the difference?

Nothing.

 

[catzmeow]

So, Newby, you would be okay with other countries waterboarding our military personnel if they were captured POWs?

 

[CrimsonWhite]

So, Newby, you would be okay with other countries waterboarding our military personnel if they were captured POWs?

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

 

[Chris]

Dick Cheney is what a colon doctor would call a "full release."

and you're what a proctologist would call a "trophy".

Cheney would like you.

 

[del]

So, Newby, you would be okay with other countries waterboarding our military personnel if they were captured POWs?

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

a buddy of mine was waterboarded as part of SERE. he's a pretty tough guy.
he said it was torture. good enough for me.

 

[jillian]

Heed your own advice.

God, you're such a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal, Crimson. Me, too.

Also, I hate guns, the military, cops, and the American flag.

This isn't even a liberal/conservative issue. It is a moral one. Nobody seems to be asking the right question. If we prosecuted people in the past for these types of interrogation techniques, why is it that we all of a sudden feel the need to use them. Are we not hypocritical for using out of fear? Is it moral to torture out of fear? Because we sure aren't doing it out of neccesity.

It's easy to maintain our morality and laws when things are easy. It's difficult to maintain those things when there's danger and people want to be angry at the people who they perceive put them in danger.

I don't think morality is optional.

I also don't believe for a second that even if we derived some actionable intel from torture, there wasn't another way to get the same intel.

 

[catzmeow]

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

You know that when you oppose torture, Crimson, the terrorists WIN.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

You know that when you oppose torture, Crimson, the terrorists WIN.

I'd rep you, but I'm out.

 

[manifold]

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Clinton mocks Cheney demand « - Blogs from CNN.com

Cheney told FOX News on Monday that the Obama administration should release classified documents revealing the results of aggressive interrogation techniques, so a more "honest debate" can take place about the efficacy of the practices.

"I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw, that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country," Cheney told FOX. "I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there, and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was."

Guess what, Dick Cheney? I don't CARE how effective waterboarding is. We're Americans, WE DON'T DO THAT. That is not the way I want my country's secret services to operate. I don't care how effective it is. There are always other ways. If the choice is between having that information, and being a country that uses those kinds of torture tactics, and living without that information and suffering another attack, I would RATHER SUFFER ANOTHER ATTACK than become a country that tortures prisoners.

You're so full of shit!

No offense.

 

[Chris]

So, Newby, you would be okay with other countries waterboarding our military personnel if they were captured POWs?

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

a buddy of mine was waterboarded as part of SERE. he's a pretty tough guy.
he said it was torture. good enough for me.

Coward.

You don't even have the balls to post under your own screen name.

 

[jillian]

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

You know that when you oppose torture, Crimson, the terrorists WIN.

I'd rep you, but I'm out.

I got her for you.

 

[catzmeow]

I feel loved, except by Mani.

 

[catzmeow]

Coward.

You don't even have the balls to post under your own screen name.

YOu really are crazy, aren't you?

 

[Sinatra]

Where is all the fury over the fact that the war is still continuing and being funded? Where are the daily headlines about the numbers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan? They're still happening you know? Under Obama's watch. Where's the screams and the cries that I heard for nearly 8 years, why did they suddenly die on Jan. 19th, 2009, when nothing has 'changed'?

Good point.

 

[ABikerSailor]

They told Cheney they were going to release memos, he thought they said massage and asked for a full release.

 

[CrimsonWhite]

I sure as hell wouldn't, but what the hell do I know. I'm a bad american and a lying liar.

a buddy of mine was waterboarded as part of SERE. he's a pretty tough guy.
he said it was torture. good enough for me.

Coward.

You don't even have the balls to post under your own screen name.

Huh?