"Christian" Religions which reject the Trinity Doctrine

[tyroneweaver]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints
Founded By: Joseph Smith, Jr., 1830.
Mormons believe that God has a physical, flesh and bones, eternal, perfect body. Men have the potential to become gods as well. Jesus is God's literal son, a separate being from God the Father and the "elder brother" of men. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being from God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit is regarded as an impersonal power or spirit being. These three separate beings are "one" only in their purpose, and they make up the Godhead.

Quick Primer on LDS (Mormon) Church Doctrine

ya and in your religion the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are brothers.

 

[Michelle420]

One time I was really stoned and Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I invited them in and impromptu read their literature out loud enthusiastically But the next time they showed up I was drunk and not in the mood. ( That was years ago in las vegas)

My ex-was Mormon. I went to church there which was a long service 3 hours. Relief Society (for women only) is like group therapy.

As a kid went to Christian Science Sunday school. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Currently, me and my mother visit different churches each week (church hopping). We haven't been to church since the 90's so it's kind of nice to go again.

That said, I don't understand the trinity thing either.

So cute drifter
Most people hear this stuff first,
THEN they get driven to drink and smoke.
I think you got it all in the wrong order?

There are two ways I've seen the Trinity explained that make sense to me
A. the Government analogy
we have Judicial, Legislative and Executive authority.
which all act independently they are NOT the same thing.
Yet we have ONE Government, not three.
If you can explain how we can have 3 branches of govt
with full authority to do what they do, yet there
is only ONE government, that's like how God is one,
but there are three manifestations or authorities that are separate from each other.

B. the roles
One man can be a
Father
Son
Husband or Friend
But still be ONE man not three
When we focus on God as the Creator role
then we refer to God as Father.
When we focus on God's laws of Justice
in Relationship with us as between people
or people and govt, we embody this
as Jesus or Justice for All
When we focus on unifying all people in PEACE
then this is the Holy Spirit like the
universal spirit of humanity that joins us all as one family.

If God is Love, then Love has many different types
Paternal Love of Mother and Father is different
Husband and Wife Romantic love is different
Familial love of brother and sister is different
Yet these are all LOVE

Each level of the trinity is a distinct manifestation.

It's like Mind Body Spirit.
There is only one person, but
we have the physical individual level of Body,
the next higher level of MIND or Conscience
that joins us in RELATIONS with another person.
and we have the COLLECTIVE level of spirit
that joins us with all humanity as one.

So when we are at peace and in harmony
as a whole, the mind body and spirit are ONE.
thus people are both individuals
and we are collectively one humanity
that affects each other as one body!

Does any of that explain why people
use the Trinity to represent the relationships
between individual and collective levels?
And why the central relation joining these
two other levels is so important to reconcile in peace?

Christ represents the conscience that both
joins man and man in relation with neighbors on the
earthly level we see in real life; and the connection
between man and God on spiritual higher levels
that go beyond what we see in life. We don't see
the people in China or Africa suffering, but we
know about them through faith. We are still
joined in spirit without physical proof we don't see
directly around us empirically. So in order to
balance what we can control and do in our
immediate local physical world, and the higher
goals we have as one family of all humanity
and society combined, that's why we need
to connect in peace and truth and not be in
conflict with each other. So we can work as
one team and do things that help everyone
and not hurt anyone on any level of society.

So the point of Jesus Christ being the central
connection for all humanity is to live by
Restorative Justice, by Justice and Peace for ALL.

this connects the individual person and body
with the collective level of all humanity in spirit.

Then we live as "one body" in natural harmony.
Mind body and spirit are one.
Individuals, relations, and all society/humanity are one.
We are still diverse and unique, but we are
unified at the same time. We have free will and independent thoughts and ways as individuals
but we have peace under one universal truth and law at the same time.

I understand your version of it. But the other versions people have said makes no sense.

 

[emilynghiem]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints
Founded By: Joseph Smith, Jr., 1830.
Mormons believe that God has a physical, flesh and bones, eternal, perfect body. Men have the potential to become gods as well. Jesus is God's literal son, a separate being from God the Father and the "elder brother" of men. The Holy Spirit is also a separate being from God the Father and God the Son. The Holy Spirit is regarded as an impersonal power or spirit being. These three separate beings are "one" only in their purpose, and they make up the Godhead.

Quick Primer on LDS (Mormon) Church Doctrine

ya and in your religion the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are brothers.

Dear tyroneweaver
What about the association between the Holy Spirit and Mother Mary as a symbol of Mercy?
The JW teach Michael as manifestation of God's Mercy.
That's the most I can figure out why they equate Jesus with Michael.
They seem to want to fill the last part of the Trinity.

Justice with Mercy is what Jesus and Mary symbolize.
So the Catholic Church is very big on the body of Christ
the people or Church as the BRIDE which is FEMALE.

Don't you think it makes more sense
that the third level of the Trinity refer
to the Holy Spirit as the spirit of the Mother Church
uniting all HUMANITY as the Bride of Christ?

 

[emilynghiem]

One time I was really stoned and Jehovah witnesses came to my door, I invited them in and impromptu read their literature out loud enthusiastically But the next time they showed up I was drunk and not in the mood. ( That was years ago in las vegas)

My ex-was Mormon. I went to church there which was a long service 3 hours. Relief Society (for women only) is like group therapy.

As a kid went to Christian Science Sunday school. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Currently, me and my mother visit different churches each week (church hopping). We haven't been to church since the 90's so it's kind of nice to go again.

That said, I don't understand the trinity thing either.

So cute drifter
Most people hear this stuff first,
THEN they get driven to drink and smoke.
I think you got it all in the wrong order?

There are two ways I've seen the Trinity explained that make sense to me
A. the Government analogy
we have Judicial, Legislative and Executive authority.
which all act independently they are NOT the same thing.
Yet we have ONE Government, not three.
If you can explain how we can have 3 branches of govt
with full authority to do what they do, yet there
is only ONE government, that's like how God is one,
but there are three manifestations or authorities that are separate from each other.

B. the roles
One man can be a
Father
Son
Husband or Friend
But still be ONE man not three
When we focus on God as the Creator role
then we refer to God as Father.
When we focus on God's laws of Justice
in Relationship with us as between people
or people and govt, we embody this
as Jesus or Justice for All
When we focus on unifying all people in PEACE
then this is the Holy Spirit like the
universal spirit of humanity that joins us all as one family.

If God is Love, then Love has many different types
Paternal Love of Mother and Father is different
Husband and Wife Romantic love is different
Familial love of brother and sister is different
Yet these are all LOVE

Each level of the trinity is a distinct manifestation.

It's like Mind Body Spirit.
There is only one person, but
we have the physical individual level of Body,
the next higher level of MIND or Conscience
that joins us in RELATIONS with another person.
and we have the COLLECTIVE level of spirit
that joins us with all humanity as one.

So when we are at peace and in harmony
as a whole, the mind body and spirit are ONE.
thus people are both individuals
and we are collectively one humanity
that affects each other as one body!

Does any of that explain why people
use the Trinity to represent the relationships
between individual and collective levels?
And why the central relation joining these
two other levels is so important to reconcile in peace?

Christ represents the conscience that both
joins man and man in relation with neighbors on the
earthly level we see in real life; and the connection
between man and God on spiritual higher levels
that go beyond what we see in life. We don't see
the people in China or Africa suffering, but we
know about them through faith. We are still
joined in spirit without physical proof we don't see
directly around us empirically. So in order to
balance what we can control and do in our
immediate local physical world, and the higher
goals we have as one family of all humanity
and society combined, that's why we need
to connect in peace and truth and not be in
conflict with each other. So we can work as
one team and do things that help everyone
and not hurt anyone on any level of society.

So the point of Jesus Christ being the central
connection for all humanity is to live by
Restorative Justice, by Justice and Peace for ALL.

this connects the individual person and body
with the collective level of all humanity in spirit.

Then we live as "one body" in natural harmony.
Mind body and spirit are one.
Individuals, relations, and all society/humanity are one.
We are still diverse and unique, but we are
unified at the same time. We have free will and independent thoughts and ways as individuals
but we have peace under one universal truth and law at the same time.

I understand your version of it. But the other versions people have said makes no sense.

Yes I notice that too drifter
so funny!

I had one friend explain the three being one
as one drop of water at three points in a circle,
then you blend all three points to make one circle of water.
That doesn't explain to me how God is greater than the other two!
that makes them all the same!
It worked for her, but not to me!

It is funny how people's minds are so different,
one explanation will BINGO and another will BOMB...

 

[norwegen]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

Very interesting norwegen
Humanity can only focus on one aspect of God at a time because we are limited.
God as Love, God as Wisdom, and God as universal laws of nature or science
are three separate conversations or fields of study.

If the same teacher teaches us counting and recognizing numbers when we are
in preschool or kindergarten,
then arithmetic when we are in grade school,
then teaches us algebra, geometry, and trig in high school,
then calculus and advanced physics in college,
doesn't that same Teacher have to
change the way they teach when the students
are at different ages and stages?

Does that mean the math or teacher changed their nature?

Or just the way they related to the students so we could
follow them as we grew?

No, it doesn't mean he changes the way he teaches. It means the subject matter changes. Surely a calculus teacher can also teach long division.

God did change, however. He forgave His people of their idolatry, of the evil ways of their forbears.

Or perhaps He didn't change, as His design all along was to fellowship His creation.

Who knows? I am only the second smartest man in the world.

 

[emilynghiem]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

Very interesting norwegen
Humanity can only focus on one aspect of God at a time because we are limited.
God as Love, God as Wisdom, and God as universal laws of nature or science
are three separate conversations or fields of study.

If the same teacher teaches us counting and recognizing numbers when we are
in preschool or kindergarten,
then arithmetic when we are in grade school,
then teaches us algebra, geometry, and trig in high school,
then calculus and advanced physics in college,
doesn't that same Teacher have to
change the way they teach when the students
are at different ages and stages?

Does that mean the math or teacher changed their nature?

Or just the way they related to the students so we could
follow them as we grew?

No, it doesn't mean he changes the way he teaches. It means the subject matter changes. Surely a calculus teacher can also teach long division.

God did change, however. He forgave His people of their idolatry, of the evil ways of their forbears.

Or perhaps He didn't change, as His design all along was to fellowship His creation.

Who knows? I am only the second smartest man in the world.

Dear norwegen
Okay I think you are referring to the differences between the OT and the NT.
The OT is about living by the letter of the law.
the focus there is more on retributive justice.
and why that doesn't work for man. This becomes Antichrist.
We get lost to corruption by greed for power to control the laws,
so we meet with death and destruction. That's OT

the NT is about living by the spirit of the laws.
the focus there is renewal by restorative justice or Christ Jesus.

God is still the same God.
But when we are young our parents teach us by retribution,
by getting rewards when we obey and do well or do good
and getting spanked or grounded when we disobey or do wrong or bad.

When we become mature, we learn by experience
by free will and reason to compare good consequences
and bad consequences, cause and effect.

So God governs us differently, where we are expected
to learn the difference.

In the Bible it explains we must FORGIVE so God forgives us.
this is a natural spiritual law, that we must CHOOSE by free will
to forgive. God cannot force us to.

So when we are immature, God forgives us while teaching us.
When we are mature enough to be held accountable,
then we learn by experience if we forgive others then we are forgiven.

Ironically it is easier to teach this to children
who naturally feel compassion and feel bad for others.
It is harder and harder to teach forgiveness to adults
the more we learn to defend ourselves by fear and attack
from bad things we can't understand we blame on others.

norwegen I've seen it over and over
the more forgiving people are, the more clear their judgment
so they can see more of God's wisdom and reach understanding.
But the less we forgive, the more negative emotions we harbor
which block our judgment and we can't see as clearly what the solutions are!

We can learn this from experience,
so God lets us learn and take our own hits.

We will see wars, and violence, crime and senseless killing
until we learn that forgiveness can heal the very roots
of sickness in ourselves and society, and in all relations.

The more we heal our minds and relations, the more
we will understand and reach agreement on God as well.

 

[norwegen]

Whether God is triune is an issue that confounded Christians even in the first four centuries. If God is almighty, then He is the only God. Two beings, God and the Son of God, can't both be almighty. And one who is begotten certainly cannot be equal to one who begets.

Jesus tells us, though, that he and the Father are One, and that if we have seen him we seen the Father (John 10:30; 14:9).

Also, whatever is perfect does not change. God would have changed when He begat a Son and became a Father, i.e., something else. Therefore, He had always been the Father and Jesus always the Son.

The Nicene Creed could have gone either way, though, really; a council of bishops is really what determined the orthodoxy.

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

Very interesting norwegen
Humanity can only focus on one aspect of God at a time because we are limited.
God as Love, God as Wisdom, and God as universal laws of nature or science
are three separate conversations or fields of study.

If the same teacher teaches us counting and recognizing numbers when we are
in preschool or kindergarten,
then arithmetic when we are in grade school,
then teaches us algebra, geometry, and trig in high school,
then calculus and advanced physics in college,
doesn't that same Teacher have to
change the way they teach when the students
are at different ages and stages?

Does that mean the math or teacher changed their nature?

Or just the way they related to the students so we could
follow them as we grew?

No, it doesn't mean he changes the way he teaches. It means the subject matter changes. Surely a calculus teacher can also teach long division.

God did change, however. He forgave His people of their idolatry, of the evil ways of their forbears.

Or perhaps He didn't change, as His design all along was to fellowship His creation.

Who knows? I am only the second smartest man in the world.

Dear norwegen
Okay I think you are referring to the differences between the OT and the NT.
The OT is about living by the letter of the law.
the focus there is more on retributive justice.
and why that doesn't work for man. This becomes Antichrist.
We get lost to corruption by greed for power to control the laws,
so we meet with death and destruction. That's OT

the NT is about living by the spirit of the laws.
the focus there is renewal by restorative justice or Christ Jesus.

God is still the same God.
But when we are young our parents teach us by retribution,
by getting rewards when we obey and do well or do good
and getting spanked or grounded when we disobey or do wrong or bad.

When we become mature, we learn by experience
by free will and reason to compare good consequences
and bad consequences, cause and effect.

So God governs us differently, where we are expected
to learn the difference.

In the Bible it explains we must FORGIVE so God forgives us.
this is a natural spiritual law, that we must CHOOSE by free will
to forgive. God cannot force us to.

So when we are immature, God forgives us while teaching us.
When we are mature enough to be held accountable,
then we learn by experience if we forgive others then we are forgiven.

Ironically it is easier to teach this to children
who naturally feel compassion and feel bad for others.
It is harder and harder to teach forgiveness to adults
the more we learn to defend ourselves by fear and attack
from bad things we can't understand we blame on others.

norwegen I've seen it over and over
the more forgiving people are, the more clear their judgment
so they can see more of God's wisdom and reach understanding.
But the less we forgive, the more negative emotions we harbor
which block our judgment and we can't see as clearly what the solutions are!

We can learn this from experience,
so God lets us learn and take our own hits.

We will see wars, and violence, crime and senseless killing
until we learn that forgiveness can heal the very roots
of sickness in ourselves and society, and in all relations.

The more we heal our minds and relations, the more
we will understand and reach agreement on God as well.

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

The Gospel is the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 24:14; Acts 8:12). Jesus promised a new world, and delivered. As one who believes in three attributes of God, I would say he wasn't merely an agent of this transformation but its executor. God's glory unveiled on the Cross.

 

[emilynghiem]

Meh, who said perfection doesn't change..and who says that there was change?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God."

or..if you prefer:

John 1:1-2 New International Version (NIV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

Exactly. If whatever is perfect remains perfect, then it doesn't change. If God becomes a Father when He begets a Son, then He changes. Hence the outcome at the Council of Nicaea.

And this, of course, does not address the Holy Spirit, the Helper.

Very interesting norwegen
Humanity can only focus on one aspect of God at a time because we are limited.
God as Love, God as Wisdom, and God as universal laws of nature or science
are three separate conversations or fields of study.

If the same teacher teaches us counting and recognizing numbers when we are
in preschool or kindergarten,
then arithmetic when we are in grade school,
then teaches us algebra, geometry, and trig in high school,
then calculus and advanced physics in college,
doesn't that same Teacher have to
change the way they teach when the students
are at different ages and stages?

Does that mean the math or teacher changed their nature?

Or just the way they related to the students so we could
follow them as we grew?

No, it doesn't mean he changes the way he teaches. It means the subject matter changes. Surely a calculus teacher can also teach long division.

God did change, however. He forgave His people of their idolatry, of the evil ways of their forbears.

Or perhaps He didn't change, as His design all along was to fellowship His creation.

Who knows? I am only the second smartest man in the world.

Dear norwegen
Okay I think you are referring to the differences between the OT and the NT.
The OT is about living by the letter of the law.
the focus there is more on retributive justice.
and why that doesn't work for man. This becomes Antichrist.
We get lost to corruption by greed for power to control the laws,
so we meet with death and destruction. That's OT

the NT is about living by the spirit of the laws.
the focus there is renewal by restorative justice or Christ Jesus.

God is still the same God.
But when we are young our parents teach us by retribution,
by getting rewards when we obey and do well or do good
and getting spanked or grounded when we disobey or do wrong or bad.

When we become mature, we learn by experience
by free will and reason to compare good consequences
and bad consequences, cause and effect.

So God governs us differently, where we are expected
to learn the difference.

In the Bible it explains we must FORGIVE so God forgives us.
this is a natural spiritual law, that we must CHOOSE by free will
to forgive. God cannot force us to.

So when we are immature, God forgives us while teaching us.
When we are mature enough to be held accountable,
then we learn by experience if we forgive others then we are forgiven.

Ironically it is easier to teach this to children
who naturally feel compassion and feel bad for others.
It is harder and harder to teach forgiveness to adults
the more we learn to defend ourselves by fear and attack
from bad things we can't understand we blame on others.

norwegen I've seen it over and over
the more forgiving people are, the more clear their judgment
so they can see more of God's wisdom and reach understanding.
But the less we forgive, the more negative emotions we harbor
which block our judgment and we can't see as clearly what the solutions are!

We can learn this from experience,
so God lets us learn and take our own hits.

We will see wars, and violence, crime and senseless killing
until we learn that forgiveness can heal the very roots
of sickness in ourselves and society, and in all relations.

The more we heal our minds and relations, the more
we will understand and reach agreement on God as well.

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

The Gospel is the Kingdom (Matt. 4:23, 24:14; Acts 8:12). Jesus promised a new world, and delivered. As one who believes in three attributes of God, I would say he wasn't merely an agent of this transformation but its executor. God's glory unveiled on the Cross.

Dear norwegen
the way I understand it
Jesus IS the law or word, IS God's Justice made incarnate.

So by receiving Jesus, or the Lord or LAW by conscience,
then we the body of the church embrace and live the law.
The whole NT is about
us being made whole new and one in Christ Jesus
or Restorative Justice, so this brings salvation and peace.
the Kingdom of God made manifest on earth as it is in heaven.

 

[norwegen]

We receive law? Jesus was the Word since the beginning. Is that not in reference to creation?

The whole NT is about the Kingdom; it has made the earth new again.

 

[emilynghiem]

We receive law? Jesus was the Word since the beginning. Is that not in reference to creation?

The whole NT is about the Kingdom; it has made the earth new again.

Dear norwegen
I think we agree more than disagree.

To be more specific, the NT governs the process by which
we receive Jesus into our RELATIONS with each other.

Receiving the Father, Jesus and the Word/Laws individually
is one part of the process.

Establishing law and truth in RELATIONS in AGREEMENT
with neighbors is what we are doing now. It's a stage of development.

The Founding Fathers laid down laws of due process and RELATIONS
between people and govt.

But look at America, and where we are now ,using our media our
"freedom of speech and press" to fight and argue to dominate.
We are not using these laws and rights to REDRESS grievances
and petition one another to SOLVE and AGREE on things!

So we are still in the PROCESS of learning the rebuke
and redress process. In the Bible it's given under Matthew 18:15-20
and also James 5:15 to pray for one another that we may be healed.

In Constitutional laws and process we are supposed to use freedom
of speech and press to Petition to redress grievances while
respecting democratic due process.

So the gentiles under natural laws are a key part of fulfilling this
stage of receiving God's laws in RELATIONS with each other.

This is MORE than just individuals receiving,
but relations being made new and whole and RESTORED in Christ,
and that collectively unites all the church or people as one body or humanity.
by restoring and saving RELATIONS the same way people are made new and
reborn when we receive the law.

Does this make sense? we are working on extending this
same process to RELATIONS with people, and then
this affects relations between whole tribes and nations in turn.

 

[hobelim]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

 

[emilynghiem]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

Dear norwegen hobelim
What Paul means by the Mosaic Law as a stumbling block
may refer to people enforcing it by man's legalistic standards
instead of God's universal laws and meaning.

When we become too legalistic and abuse laws to
"hang one person while excusing another"
then yes even the laws become a stumbling block.
Not because they are right or wrong, but the way we abuse them.

Even so, even when this is going on which it is now,
God's laws still apply
1. we are judged by our words and if our actions match.
So if we condemn others, we meet with the same condemnation
by God's natural laws of justice
2. We are forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us
3. Where we forgive and offer to comply with corrections and restitution,
then others respond in kind.

We get the justice we give. We reap what we sow.
Either Justice with Mercy, or justice by the sword.

God's laws and process of Justice through Jesus authority over all,
STILL prevails and presides over us all.

What Paul is saying is the LITERAL rules of Mosaic or Judaic law
apply to the Jews and that body of people.
The UNIVERSAL laws of God given apply to all. The LANGUAGE
of these laws may be different, depending how the "gospel"
is presented to the Jew Christian or Muslim, or the
Buddhist Constitutionalist or humanist. The CONTENT
still applies, as the natural law of Reciprocity is found in all religions,
but presented in different ways.

There is a distinction in folds between the
* Jews and believers under Scriptural authority and laws
* Secular Gentiles under Natural laws and civil authority

God's Truth and Justice still govern both folds.
But the Church is under one body of laws given by Moses in the Bible
while the State is under a body of laws as given in writing
by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

We are bound to fall to stumbling blocks if we
take laws out of context and rebuke followers
of one using the laws of the other fold.

 

[hobelim]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

Dear norwegen hobelim
What Paul means by the Mosaic Law as a stumbling block
may refer to people enforcing it by man's legalistic standards
instead of God's universal laws and meaning.

When we become too legalistic and abuse laws to
"hang one person while excusing another"
then yes even the laws become a stumbling block.
Not because they are right or wrong, but the way we abuse them.

Even so, even when this is going on which it is now,
God's laws still apply
1. we are judged by our words and if our actions match.
So if we condemn others, we meet with the same condemnation
by God's natural laws of justice
2. We are forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us
3. Where we forgive and offer to comply with corrections and restitution,
then others respond in kind.

We get the justice we give. We reap what we sow.
Either Justice with Mercy, or justice by the sword.

God's laws and process of Justice through Jesus authority over all,
STILL prevails and presides over us all.

What Paul is saying is the LITERAL rules of Mosaic or Judaic law
apply to the Jews and that body of people.
The UNIVERSAL laws of God given apply to all. The LANGUAGE
of these laws may be different, depending how the "gospel"
is presented to the Jew Christian or Muslim, or the
Buddhist Constitutionalist or humanist. The CONTENT
still applies, as the natural law of Reciprocity is found in all religions,
but presented in different ways.

There is a distinction in folds between the
* Jews and believers under Scriptural authority and laws
* Secular Gentiles under Natural laws and civil authority

God's Truth and Justice still govern both folds.
But the Church is under one body of laws given by Moses in the Bible
while the State is under a body of laws as given in writing
by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

We are bound to fall to stumbling blocks if we
take laws out of context and rebuke followers
of one using the laws of the other fold.

Dear emilynghiem

No,

There is a right way and a wrong way to conform to the law. Conforming to the law in the wrong way bears just as much guilt as not even trying.

The stumbling block according to Jesus was Jesus who taught a more rational way to understand and conform to the law that had never been heard since the foundation of the world and the establishment of the law by God as a light to the nations through the spoken word that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with what you wear or what you eat.

And the darkness has never mastered it...


Remember?

Here lies the test; The light has come into the world but men preferred darkness to light because their deeds were evil."

 

[emilynghiem]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

Dear norwegen hobelim
What Paul means by the Mosaic Law as a stumbling block
may refer to people enforcing it by man's legalistic standards
instead of God's universal laws and meaning.

When we become too legalistic and abuse laws to
"hang one person while excusing another"
then yes even the laws become a stumbling block.
Not because they are right or wrong, but the way we abuse them.

Even so, even when this is going on which it is now,
God's laws still apply
1. we are judged by our words and if our actions match.
So if we condemn others, we meet with the same condemnation
by God's natural laws of justice
2. We are forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us
3. Where we forgive and offer to comply with corrections and restitution,
then others respond in kind.

We get the justice we give. We reap what we sow.
Either Justice with Mercy, or justice by the sword.

God's laws and process of Justice through Jesus authority over all,
STILL prevails and presides over us all.

What Paul is saying is the LITERAL rules of Mosaic or Judaic law
apply to the Jews and that body of people.
The UNIVERSAL laws of God given apply to all. The LANGUAGE
of these laws may be different, depending how the "gospel"
is presented to the Jew Christian or Muslim, or the
Buddhist Constitutionalist or humanist. The CONTENT
still applies, as the natural law of Reciprocity is found in all religions,
but presented in different ways.

There is a distinction in folds between the
* Jews and believers under Scriptural authority and laws
* Secular Gentiles under Natural laws and civil authority

God's Truth and Justice still govern both folds.
But the Church is under one body of laws given by Moses in the Bible
while the State is under a body of laws as given in writing
by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

We are bound to fall to stumbling blocks if we
take laws out of context and rebuke followers
of one using the laws of the other fold.

Dear emilynghiem

No,

There is a right way and a wrong way to conform to the law. Conforming to the law in the wrong way bears just as much guilt as not even trying.

The stumbling block according to Jesus was Jesus who taught a more rational way to understand and conform to the law that had never been heard since the foundation of the world and the establishment of the law by God as a light to the nations through the spoken word that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with what you wear or what you eat.

And the darkness has never mastered it...

Yes I agree hobelim and you say it better than I tried to.

I agree the point is enforcing (you say conforming) to the laws
in the right spirit by Christ Jesus.
Not by the dark ways, the selfish manmade ways
of abusing the letter of the law for our own justifications.

I am trying to say the same things,
so thanks for clarifying and saying it more clearly!

 

[hobelim]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

Dear norwegen hobelim
What Paul means by the Mosaic Law as a stumbling block
may refer to people enforcing it by man's legalistic standards
instead of God's universal laws and meaning.

When we become too legalistic and abuse laws to
"hang one person while excusing another"
then yes even the laws become a stumbling block.
Not because they are right or wrong, but the way we abuse them.

Even so, even when this is going on which it is now,
God's laws still apply
1. we are judged by our words and if our actions match.
So if we condemn others, we meet with the same condemnation
by God's natural laws of justice
2. We are forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us
3. Where we forgive and offer to comply with corrections and restitution,
then others respond in kind.

We get the justice we give. We reap what we sow.
Either Justice with Mercy, or justice by the sword.

God's laws and process of Justice through Jesus authority over all,
STILL prevails and presides over us all.

What Paul is saying is the LITERAL rules of Mosaic or Judaic law
apply to the Jews and that body of people.
The UNIVERSAL laws of God given apply to all. The LANGUAGE
of these laws may be different, depending how the "gospel"
is presented to the Jew Christian or Muslim, or the
Buddhist Constitutionalist or humanist. The CONTENT
still applies, as the natural law of Reciprocity is found in all religions,
but presented in different ways.

There is a distinction in folds between the
* Jews and believers under Scriptural authority and laws
* Secular Gentiles under Natural laws and civil authority

God's Truth and Justice still govern both folds.
But the Church is under one body of laws given by Moses in the Bible
while the State is under a body of laws as given in writing
by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

We are bound to fall to stumbling blocks if we
take laws out of context and rebuke followers
of one using the laws of the other fold.

Dear emilynghiem

No,

There is a right way and a wrong way to conform to the law. Conforming to the law in the wrong way bears just as much guilt as not even trying.

The stumbling block according to Jesus was Jesus who taught a more rational way to understand and conform to the law that had never been heard since the foundation of the world and the establishment of the law by God as a light to the nations through the spoken word that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with what you wear or what you eat.

And the darkness has never mastered it...

Yes I agree hobelim and you say it better than I tried to.

I agree the point is enforcing (you say conforming) to the laws
in the right spirit by Christ Jesus.
Not by the dark ways, the selfish manmade ways
of abusing the letter of the law for our own justifications.

I am trying to say the same things,
so thanks for clarifying and saying it more clearly!

Thanks emilynghiem but Im not sure that we are saying the same things.

Maybe you can clarify by telling me in what way do you avoid the flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate..? In what way do you wear the words of God like a frontlet between your eyes and a strap that binds your hand?

I hate to be a stickler but I'm pretty sure that I heard somewhere that being on the right wavelength, fulfilling the demands of the law in the way that God intended, in the same way that Jesus fulfilled the law, is a matter of life and death.

 

[emilynghiem]

The NT isn't really about any law. In fact, Paul decries Mosaic law as a stumbling block. And does the Gospel actually say that now we live by the spirit of any law?

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

According to Jesus the law will remain in power and will be in full force until the end of the world.

This means that either Paul or Jesus was a deceiver. Care to take a wild guess which one was the liar?


To understand what Jesus meant by saying whoever sets aside the law and teaches others to do the same will be called "least" in the kingdom of Heaven, see Genesis 3:14

Dear norwegen hobelim
What Paul means by the Mosaic Law as a stumbling block
may refer to people enforcing it by man's legalistic standards
instead of God's universal laws and meaning.

When we become too legalistic and abuse laws to
"hang one person while excusing another"
then yes even the laws become a stumbling block.
Not because they are right or wrong, but the way we abuse them.

Even so, even when this is going on which it is now,
God's laws still apply
1. we are judged by our words and if our actions match.
So if we condemn others, we meet with the same condemnation
by God's natural laws of justice
2. We are forgiven as we forgive those who trespass against us
3. Where we forgive and offer to comply with corrections and restitution,
then others respond in kind.

We get the justice we give. We reap what we sow.
Either Justice with Mercy, or justice by the sword.

God's laws and process of Justice through Jesus authority over all,
STILL prevails and presides over us all.

What Paul is saying is the LITERAL rules of Mosaic or Judaic law
apply to the Jews and that body of people.
The UNIVERSAL laws of God given apply to all. The LANGUAGE
of these laws may be different, depending how the "gospel"
is presented to the Jew Christian or Muslim, or the
Buddhist Constitutionalist or humanist. The CONTENT
still applies, as the natural law of Reciprocity is found in all religions,
but presented in different ways.

There is a distinction in folds between the
* Jews and believers under Scriptural authority and laws
* Secular Gentiles under Natural laws and civil authority

God's Truth and Justice still govern both folds.
But the Church is under one body of laws given by Moses in the Bible
while the State is under a body of laws as given in writing
by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution.

We are bound to fall to stumbling blocks if we
take laws out of context and rebuke followers
of one using the laws of the other fold.

Dear emilynghiem

No,

There is a right way and a wrong way to conform to the law. Conforming to the law in the wrong way bears just as much guilt as not even trying.

The stumbling block according to Jesus was Jesus who taught a more rational way to understand and conform to the law that had never been heard since the foundation of the world and the establishment of the law by God as a light to the nations through the spoken word that has absolutely nothing whatever to do with what you wear or what you eat.

And the darkness has never mastered it...

Yes I agree hobelim and you say it better than I tried to.

I agree the point is enforcing (you say conforming) to the laws
in the right spirit by Christ Jesus.
Not by the dark ways, the selfish manmade ways
of abusing the letter of the law for our own justifications.

I am trying to say the same things,
so thanks for clarifying and saying it more clearly!

Im not sure that we are saying the same things.

Maybe you can clarify by telling me in what way do you avoid the flesh of unclean creatures that do not ruminate..

I'm pretty sure that I heard somewhere that being on the right wavelength, fulfilling the demands of the law in the way that God intended, in the same way that Jesus fulfilled the law, is a matter of life and death.

Dear hobelim
And by God's higher laws
1. if you as an adherent follow and enforce the laws to the letter that way,
then YOU shall be judged by YOUR words and YOUR judgment
2. if Atheists claim to follow science and reason, but fails
to uphold that standard, such as by assuming the conclusion at the premise,
then those people are held to answer to THEIR words and standards THEY proclaimed to follow
3. Likewise with the Jew the Christian the Muslim.
the Catholic or Protestant.
the Liberal or Libertarian.
the Conservative or constitutionalist.

Whatever laws or standards EACH PERSON proclaims and/or JUDGES others by,
that's the words that person will be held to account. In order to correct
themselves by their own ways of understanding and presenting the laws.

How do I know this is God's way?
Because it works hobelim
on each person of whatever tribe or law or language they follow by heart and hold by conscience.

the only time I've seen Buddhists or Atheists change
their thinking is when it was explained to them using THEIR OWN LANGUAGE.

If someone is of no faith or following, they change their
minds when it makes sense using their own experiences,
like how Jesus used PARABLES (without words without citing laws)
to communicate effectively with farmers and fishermen.

I don't know if you follow politics, hobelim
but you cannot correct or change the mind of an atheist
by citing Biblical laws for THEM. YOU can follow them
in order to rebuke and correct but most atheists I know
respond to science and reason, and it works better
if explained and presented using language they understand.

So for the shellfish and foods we eat, the best explanations
that work for secular people are pointing out the effects
on health, environment and economy. Whatever works,
some people don't get it until they understand the
big industries profit off destroying health of people and planet.
So the less we eat of these products, the less money we give
to those profiting off greed, so it's part of NOT following "Mammon."
When we don't put material greed and comfort and wants
above what is universally good for all people and the world we live in.

So if that is what communicates effectively, use that.

My language and laws are about due process,
and resolving conflicts to reach agreement in truth.

Those are the standards I seek to enforce more consistently,
and those are the standards I am held to as part of the process.

Now if your calling is to focus on more consistent food and diet for people
and the planet, then I encourage you to share this message and inspire
people to invest in better solutions! My job is to teach people to diversity
and reach more audiences by speaking their language. And for secular
humanists, as well as capitalists, they may need to see more proof that
food distribution can be set up sustainably so they can support that
and quit relying on mass production companies that don't respect rules of nature.

 

[hobelim]

I don't know if you follow politics, hobelim
but you cannot correct or change the mind of an atheist
by citing Biblical laws for THEM.

I don't know about that. They claim to be rational. If ever someone came around with a rational explanation for avoiding the flesh of swine that reflects actual wisdom, I'm sure they would change their minds at least about the position that the bible has no real value for those who dwell in reality..

They already don't swallow just any old garbage that someone tries to feed them. They are already following the deeper implications of kosher law. They enjoy the benefit, how could they not see the wisdom?

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't know if you follow politics, hobelim
but you cannot correct or change the mind of an atheist
by citing Biblical laws for THEM.

I don't know about that. They claim to be rational. If ever someone came around with a rational explanation for avoiding the flesh of swine that reflects actual wisdom, I'm sure they would change their minds at least about the position that the bible has no real value for those who dwell in reality..

They already don't swallow just any old garbage someone tries to feed them..How could they not see the wisdom?

I'd say we could reach an agreement that the
laws in the Bible are CONSISTENT with laws we find
in science and in government, and in other religions.

That doesn't impose the Bible as authority on OTHERS
just because we prove it works for followers of that tribe.

I propose we start with the central issue of how
forgiveness (or unforgiveness) skews our perception and
ability to reconcile across party or religious lines.

Let's start with a premise, and then work backwards to eliminate
all contradictions or counterexamples, like a contra positive proof.

Let's start with the premise that Christ Jesus means Restorative
Justice, and that peace and justice is possible through
forgiveness and corrections. Let's propose to prove by science and stats
that the rate or degree of forgiveness (or unforgiveness) reported
by people in conflict CORRELATES with their ability to
RESOLVE or fail to resolve their issues and work together.

Let's show by the numbers that this process of forgiveness
correlating with justice and peace in relations APPLIES to
all people of all groups whether Christian or atheist,
Muslim or Hindu, Catholic or Protestant, liberal or conservative.

It's the Forgiveness factor that determines if we can reconcile
in truth even where we disagree in language or opinions or even facts.

Let's start with that premise and see what all can be
resolved from there. hobelim
Even if nobody converts or changes their mind from one
system to the next, we can change our perceptions
that these can all be used for good, for those who respond to that system.

 

[hobelim]

I don't know if you follow politics, hobelim
but you cannot correct or change the mind of an atheist
by citing Biblical laws for THEM.

I don't know about that. They claim to be rational. If ever someone came around with a rational explanation for avoiding the flesh of swine that reflects actual wisdom, I'm sure they would change their minds at least about the position that the bible has no real value for those who dwell in reality..

They already don't swallow just any old garbage someone tries to feed them..How could they not see the wisdom?

I'd say we could reach an agreement that the
laws in the Bible are CONSISTENT with laws we find
in science and in government, and in other religions.

That doesn't impose the Bible as authority on OTHERS
just because we prove it works for followers of that tribe.

I propose we start with the central issue of how
forgiveness (or unforgiveness) skews our perception and
ability to reconcile across party or religious lines.

Let's start with a premise, and then work backwards to eliminate
all contradictions or counterexamples, like a contra positive proof.

Let's start with the premise that Christ Jesus means Restorative
Justice, and that peace and justice is possible through
forgiveness and corrections. Let's propose to prove by science and stats
that the rate or degree of forgiveness (or unforgiveness) reported
by people in conflict CORRELATES with their ability to
RESOLVE or fail to resolve their issues and work together.

Let's show by the numbers that this process of forgiveness
correlating with justice and peace in relations APPLIES to
all people of all groups whether Christian or atheist,
Muslim or Hindu, Catholic or Protestant, liberal or conservative.

It's the Forgiveness factor that determines if we can reconcile
in truth even where we disagree in language or opinions or even facts.

Let's start with that premise and see what all can be
resolved from there. hobelim
Even if nobody converts or changes their mind from one
system to the next, we can change our perceptions
that these can all be used for good, for those who respond to that system.

No, Emily,

I would rather start with the premise that Jesus meant exactly what he said;,

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (do them) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever sets aside even the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven,"

All that remains is to figure out what he meant to know how to conform to the law in the way that fulfills the promise of eternal life.

Just do it.

then we'll talk.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Mormonism - Latter-day Saints

Jehovah's Witnesses

Christian Science

Armstrongism

Christadelphians

Oneness Pentecostals

Unification Church

Unity School of Christianity

Scientology - Dianetics

Dear ding to be fair
when I talked with a coworker at a previous job,
who believed in Unity while her husband was Church of Christ,
they had struggled and struggled with him trying to explain to her
how the "three were one". He and I both used the analogy of
"Judicial Legislative and Executive" being 3 DISTINCT authorities
but there is only ONE Government not three! His wife still
could not get her brain to think that way. She (and her Mom)
just saw God as ONE not three, where Jesus and the Holy Spirit are distinct
from God the Heavenly Father.

What I got from this, was that the BRAINS that think in terms
of three, or three in one, or one only, just see things differently.
Similar to atheists seeing and saying thing as impersonal and nontheistically,
while Christians or Deists may see God as Personified. Buddhists also
see the forces and laws of Life and Nature as IMPERSONAL not personified.

I do not think it is fair to judge people if their brains DIVIDE
things differently.

I learned in a linguistics class, some cultures don't have a word for
PINK but call it LIGHT RED. When I think of Light Red I don't think
of Pink, but I think of a Red that is faded or weak. That's not the
same thing as a concentrated shade of PINK. So I realized that
I may never see colors the same as someone brought up with
a language that biases their brains to see Pink as a shade of Red.
Similar with the word AzURE that means light blue. To me that's
just another shade of Blue, but light, so what? To others it's
a separate color that has its OWN NAME.

So how we divide the spiritual spectrum is going to
be conditioned by language and perception as well.

It's still the same God, it's still the same color range.
But how we distinguish one thing from another
or if we "blend some together" as the same,
that's going to vary from person to person,
culture to culture, or brain to brain.

It's Still the same God or Jesus
whether we call God by Wisdom
Heavenly Father, God's laws, God's truth,
Universe, Nature, Good will etc.
or Jesus by Salvation, Justice,
Justice and Peace, Restorative Justice.
We divide the spectrum and names differently
but these all point to the universal laws or
sources of Truth or God and Justice or Jesus.

Jesus is clear in John he is NOT his father. His authority comes from his father but he is NOT his father.