Collective wealth leads to collective well-being

[flacaltenn]

BTW... Libertarians want to BREAK the bonds that companies have with politicians thru govt/corporate collusion.. That's part of the cycle of one party or another picking FAVORITES in a marketplace and extending tax or subsidy privileges to them.. It's corruption really.. And it warps politics by having those politicians who GRANT the favors -- get hard cash or rewards in return from those industries... WE --- want that stopped. The 2 other parties just give it lip service... BECAUSE we want "fair capitalism"...

So all these reforms that you and I would like to SEE --- are NOT gonna happen as long as these corporations spend as much money on lobbying and influence as they do... They don't lobby BECAUSE they WANT to.. They lobby because if they DONT, their competition will be feeding at the govt trough...

BREAK that dependency Grace Is Stoked , and all that money and energy COULD BE SPENT on figuring out how to subsidize their products and services to the needy.. And THIS, would be far more efficient and effective than any govt programs..

 

[flacaltenn]

The way that money volume is handled is not socialism.. Money NEEDS to be injected into the financial institutions when the economy speeds up.. Just like it's taken away when it's not.. If ya got an increasing GDP, the money needs to be there. And Unk Sam can't just drop it from black helicopters...

To even remotely refer to this as a free market model is laughable.

So you'd prefer private "Big Money" control the printing and distribution and monitoring of "money supply"??? I'm not hearing an alternative plan here.. UNLESS -- you're ALL IN on crypto currency... I'm thinking you took a big loss on that --- if THAT'S your alternative... BUT -- I could be wrong but -- NOBODY has visibility into the dynamics of ANY crypto currency...

 

[flacaltenn]

At the bottom of every discussion/argument about Socialism/Collective versus Freedom/Free Markets is the main difference between you and me... You believe in ASSURING a "zero risk" life for everyone at the expense of others. You said exactly that in your Opening Post.

If you say capitalism and free markets together, we don't have such a system in America.

We already a zero risk life scenario for special interests at the expense of the working class.

See my Central Banking Is Socialism thread from today.

The way that money volume is handled is not socialism.. Money NEEDS to be injected into the financial institutions when the economy speeds up.. Just like it's taken away when it's not.. If ya got an increasing GDP, the money needs to be there. And Unk Sam can't just drop it from black helicopters...

As "socialism" means government ownership and control of supply, "money" as described in the above post definitely fits the 'bill' (pun intended).
Social programs are not synonymous with socialism.

Seeing as how "coinage" is one of the FEW APPROVED duties of the Federal govt in the Constitution, I don't stay up nights pondering some monstrous socialist experiment is happening... The problem happened when the govt TOOK THE POWER to value that coinage away from precious metal equivalents. And even then, I don't lose a lot of sleep over that..

I DO lose a lot of sleep about "quantitative easing" and OTHER schemes to control the VALUE of our DEBT and money thru basically "lying" about it...

 

[BrokeLoser]

All Americans make up a collective. We are all individuals but we are all also in this journey together.

Not true...there's a political party that has forced us to include the citizens of Mexico as party to this American collective you speak of.

If someone gets passed up along the way then they are weak or lazy.

I'm curious, what percentage of folks "getting passed up" are less ambitious than those doing the passing?

That’s the mindset, the culture that needs to change before any successful program to benefit all Americans could truly take shape in my opinion. It’s not weakness to want less of a gap between the rich and the poor

What "gap" would seem 'fair' to you?

It’s not weakness to think a system that everybody contributes to and that everybody uses equally is better than only getting what you can afford.

I agree..poor people using more public services and more welfare should definitely contribute more for those highways they use....but they need that sack of weed, carton of cigarettes or case of Modello.

 

[flacaltenn]

"Shareholder primacy emerged out of common law in the mid-nineteenth century, right around the same time stockholders’ agents developed our modern financial statements as a way to keep tabs on how well their principles’ investments were doing.

OH MY George, I cried a tear.. It's SO dreadful that the common folks take risks with their own cash and invest it in corporations and GASP ------ Become stockholders...

So George.. I know a bit about Co-ops and collectives, how do you think THEIR stockholders are any better? Just because they are a employee, does not MEAN they control ANYTHING individually, and COLLECTIVELY, (and I know this for a fact) the reason CO-OPs aint populating the streets and towns is that EMPLOYEES have their PERSONAL interests ABOVE what the company needs to survive and LIMITS the amount of success in the entire venture... Because EMPLOYEES ARE RISK ADVERSE....

There is that chilling word RISK again.. Its what makes you a Communist and me a Libertarian....

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

 

[Uncensored2008]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

 

[Pogo]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

I'm inferring that your vital phrase is this: "changing our culture" To a sense of community rather than a sense of individuals all out for themselves. A "we, not me", If that's accomplished all else follows. Is that about right?

 

[flacaltenn]

I love co-ops and collectives.. They just need to have EMPLOYEES that can tolerate a bit of RISK and have a sense of "corporate mission" to survive and thrive.. Why don't ya go START ONE georgephillip ????? Nobody's stopping you? Not even Bernie...

The CPAmerica would give you a hero medal... If, that is, the Communists haven't already awarded a couple of those...

 

[flacaltenn]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

Important point about CEOs and corporate management is that the majority of the "stuff they take" from the corporation is stock equity, not cash... That compensation DOES NOT AFFECT largely what the EXPENSES or INCOME of the corporation actually is... They RISK the value of that paper... I know. I've got enough useless stock certificates from Silicon Valley that I've papered a hallway in my office/lab with them...

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

I'm inferring that your vital phrase is this: "changing our culture" To a sense of community rather than a sense of individuals all out for themselves. A "we, not me", If that's accomplished all else follows. Is that about right?

That's a fair perception yes.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

 

[flacaltenn]

The problem is; the notion of “collective wealth” is always pitched by those bottom feeding...Weird huh?

What gives you the impression that I’m a “bottom feeder”? Collective wealth in the context of my opening post is the overall wealth generated in this country through our system of capitalism and free markets.

You're explaining things well Grace.. THere's just a lot of assumptions that folks make without actually listening to what you're saying.. It's not like their aint problems in the corporate business models these days.. And actually "good will" is a very VALUABLE thing to a corporation...

We just need to them to focus more on what THEY CAN DO -- to fix inequities and LESS on lobbying the govt for favors to get ahead of their competition...

 

[Pogo]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

I'm inferring that your vital phrase is this: "changing our culture" To a sense of community rather than a sense of individuals all out for themselves. A "we, not me", If that's accomplished all else follows. Is that about right?

That's a fair perception yes.

Then your train of thought is very astute. Culture drives everything. Far more than the menialities of "politics" or "labels". That's a Bingo. Wish more people could just figure this out.

It's the same thing I've professed on this board about gun violence. Throwing "gun control" laws at it is superficial and ultimately pointless, but change the culture away from gun idolatry, and the problem all but solves itself. And all the gun nuts can think about is "muh guns" rather than "our gun violence" -- again, self-centered rather than other-centered.

So I think you're on exactly the right track here. It's a spiritual thing.

 

[Uncensored2008]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

[

I appreciate that but I’m not necessarily talking about Medicare For All in the way that it’s currently used and thought of being used by people like Sanders. I’m talking about changing the whole system along with culture.

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

I am dedicated to seeing a culture change which will then allow other changes.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You're talking about Communism, as is Sanders. Pogo lied about socialism earlier, the provision of government services are not socialist, the party has just decided to run a campaign of blatant lies in hopes of confusing people so they will more easily accept actual socialism. But what you're proposing is REAL socialism, control of the means of production by the state or central authority. A town or community providing a fire department is a cooperative civic effort. It is not controlled by the state or federal government. But the idea that the federal government run the healthcare system is actual socialism. It will bankrupt us and will provide substandard care.

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

I am dedicated to seeing a culture change which will then allow other changes.

So, do you think the culture of 57 genders and drag queens converting 4 year olds is superior to the culture of a strong family ties from the 50's ? The Marxists declared war on our culture, so you're not pleased with the results?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

No i'm really not talking about communism, and Bernie Sanders vision centers on punishing the wealthy in order to achieve his goals, i'm not. I am also not against private property and i'm not calling for the ending of private property. I'm not calling for the government to take over industry. I'm talking about changing our culture in way that sees social welfare programs as an investment that we all benefit from equally. For example, if a CEO pays into the same healthcare system as their front line employee does and they both use that service then there is an equal interest in that program working.

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

I am dedicated to seeing a culture change which will then allow other changes.

So, do you think the culture of 57 genders and drag queens converting 4 year olds is superior to the culture of a strong family ties from the 50's ? The Marxists declared war on our culture, so you're not pleased with the results?

The culture change i'm talking about is inwardly the moving away from individualism and towards instead a culture of thinking about the good of the many. It's also outwardly transitioning away from American exceptionalism and into a humble American nationalism. As for 57 genders and drag queens that's not the aspects of culture that i'm talking about really.

 

[Uncensored2008]

In order to FORCE the CEO to pay into the same system, the central authority would have to control the means of production - i.e. socialism. You can put all the lipstick you like on that pig, but it's still a pig.

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

I am dedicated to seeing a culture change which will then allow other changes.

So, do you think the culture of 57 genders and drag queens converting 4 year olds is superior to the culture of a strong family ties from the 50's ? The Marxists declared war on our culture, so you're not pleased with the results?

The culture change i'm talking about is inwardly the moving away from individualism and towards instead a culture of thinking about the good of the many. It's also outwardly transitioning away from American exceptionalism and into a humble American nationalism. As for 57 genders and drag queens that's not the aspects of culture that i'm talking about really.

Well Comrade, 4 billion years of evolution crafted that drive for survival and self reliance, so good luck changing it.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

In the case of healthcare I would have our government run it yes and it would be funded through taxation, however, that CEO would invest into that system, the company itself would invest into that system, and the employees would all invest into that system. All invest in that system and use that system and all have equal interest in seeing it succeed.

When there is a gun to your head, it isn't investment.


America has the most advance health care system in the world, you're dedicated to changing that...

I am dedicated to seeing a culture change which will then allow other changes.

So, do you think the culture of 57 genders and drag queens converting 4 year olds is superior to the culture of a strong family ties from the 50's ? The Marxists declared war on our culture, so you're not pleased with the results?

The culture change i'm talking about is inwardly the moving away from individualism and towards instead a culture of thinking about the good of the many. It's also outwardly transitioning away from American exceptionalism and into a humble American nationalism. As for 57 genders and drag queens that's not the aspects of culture that i'm talking about really.

Well Comrade, 4 billion years of evolution crafted that drive for survival and self reliance, so good luck changing it.

I'm not a communist. Self reliance doesn't have to be selfish.