Colorado puts 25% tax on marijuana

[The Rabbi]

Companies will develop all sorts of weed varietals, and will market these to higher end users. These will still cost less, even with the tax, then the current illegal stuff. You will start seeing blends with other smokable herbs, or essences, it will become an industry in the open.

And the money will roll in, for both the legitmate sellers and the government.

About the same time as the Obamacare website is fixed. Yeah.

Actually websites for buying weed will actually work due to the profit motive behind having a working website.

You're probably right there. More intoxication is certainly what this country needs.

 

[KevinWestern]

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?

The state? Private businesses will be selling MJ and competition / economies of scale will drive down prices.

Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes.
No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.

Well obviously, specialty scotches and Cognacs are very difficult to make at home, but you seem to forget about beer, lol, which is probably the most widely consumed alcoholic beverage in the United States and insanely easy to make, yet the black market for it is virtually non-existent. And why is tobacco any different from marijuana? They're both crops, they both need to be dried, and they both usually end up in a cigarette or smokeable device.

But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners.

The black market will linger for a few years, but will eventually die out. This is inevitable. And regarding moonshine - out of all the barrels of whiskey sold in the US, what % do you think is manufactured illegally by underground operations? I'd imagine that % to be exceedingly small.

 

[Moonglow]

About the same time as the Obamacare website is fixed. Yeah.

Actually websites for buying weed will actually work due to the profit motive behind having a working website.

You're probably right there. More intoxication is certainly what this country needs.

WHy not!? Look at all the churches in the USA.

 

[Katzndogz]

Wait and see how it actually turns out. If such a tax turns people from the legal outlets to the old reliable street corner dealer, it won't be such a good idea.

Why would they go back and pay more. It is cheaper and more accessible the legal way.

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

 

[martybegan]

Wait and see how it actually turns out. If such a tax turns people from the legal outlets to the old reliable street corner dealer, it won't be such a good idea.

Why would they go back and pay more. It is cheaper and more accessible the legal way.

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

 

[KevinWestern]

Why would they go back and pay more. It is cheaper and more accessible the legal way.

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

Precisely correct.

 

[depotoo]

25% today? Just wait, once government gets their hand in the kitty here is what is to come -

Federal and State Cigarette Excise Taxes --- United States, 1995--2009
On April 1, 2009, the largest federal cigarette excise tax increase in history went into effect, bringing the combined federal and average state excise tax for cigarettes to $2.21 per pack and achieving the Healthy People 2010 (HP2010) objective (27-21a) to increase the combined federal and average state cigarette excise tax to at least $2 per pack (1). This report summarizes changes in the federal excise tax, as well as state excise taxes for all 50 states and the District of Columbia (DC) from December 31, 1995 to April 1, 2009.* The findings indicate that the federal excise tax increased from 24 cents per pack in 1995 to $1.01 per pack in 2009, and the average state excise tax increased from 32.7 cents per pack to $1.20 per pack during the same period.† These increases represent a 321% increase in the federal excise tax and a 267% increase in the average state excise tax since 1995.

Federal and State Cigarette Excise Taxes --- United States, 1995--2009

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Why would they go back and pay more. It is cheaper and more accessible the legal way.

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

 

[KevinWestern]

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

Again, 100% of people can brew their own beer with some simple kitchen equipment and minimal effort.

Why do we see so many people purchasing beer at stores/bars with insane taxes and markups? I can brew 5 gallons of beer at literally 1/5 the cost of what a bar would sell it to me at, and maybe 1/2 of what a store would sell.

Why won't you address this very relevant precedent?!

 

[The Rabbi]

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?

The state? Private businesses will be selling MJ and competition / economies of scale will drive down prices.

Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes.
No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.

Well obviously, specialty scotches and Cognacs are very difficult to make at home, but you seem to forget about beer, lol, which is probably the most widely consumed alcoholic beverage in the United States and insanely easy to make, yet the black market for it is virtually non-existent. And why is tobacco any different from marijuana? They're both crops, they both need to be dried, and they both usually end up in a cigarette or smokeable device.

But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners.

The black market will linger for a few years, but will eventually die out. This is inevitable. And regarding moonshine - out of all the barrels of whiskey sold in the US, what % do you think is manufactured illegally by underground operations? I'd imagine that % to be exceedingly small.

The state will see prices remain high, mainly through taxes. Cigarettes cost about 2 cents a pack to make. Yet they sell for over $4. Most of that is taxes. Dope will be the same because low cost MJ will cause use to increase, which is not a desirable goal.
Beer is not so easy to make, requiring time and some equipment and supplies. Dope requires a flower pot and soil and water.
If you thnk the process for curing tobacco and drying dope are the same you need to look into it more.

 

[martybegan]

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

The type of people who deal illegal drugs are not looking for the profit margin created by undercutting thier legal competition, especially not at a tax rate of 25%.

100% CAN grow thier own, I doubt more than 10%-20% WILL grow thier own.

 

[Moonglow]

How do you think drug dealers are going to deal with legal competition?

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

unless you get caught.

 

[The Rabbi]

They are going to go to another drug, or another business. The old model of one drug dealer intimidating another goes away, because while the other drug dealer could not go to the cops, a legitamate seller CAN.

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

Again, 100% of people can brew their own beer with some simple kitchen equipment and minimal effort.

Why do we see so many people purchasing beer at stores/bars with insane taxes and markups? I can brew 5 gallons of beer at literally 1/5 the cost of what a bar would sell it to me at, and maybe 1/2 of what a store would sell.

Why won't you address this very relevant precedent?!

I drink beer often. I even have the glass carboy and some other stuff. I have never bothered to brew beer.
First, it requires more equipment, like bottles. Then the time to do it. Then I can get more variety out of buying different types of beer. Then the uncertainty how my product will turn out.
There is none of this with dope.
OTOH, people do roll their own cigarrrettes and localities have been restricting roll shops where they basically rent rolling machines. So there is tax avoidance in the production of cigs, as well as the sale in very high tax states.

 

[KevinWestern]

The state will see prices remain high, mainly through taxes. Cigarettes cost about 2 cents a pack to make. Yet they sell for over $4. Most of that is taxes. Dope will be the same because low cost MJ will cause use to increase, which is not a desirable goal.
Beer is not so easy to make, requiring time and some equipment and supplies. Dope requires a flower pot and soil and water.
If you thnk the process for curing tobacco and drying dope are the same you need to look into it more.

Well here's the big question.

Why are people willing to pay $10 for a pack of cigarettes in Chicago (and they do so all of the time in vast, vast quantities), when they could instead grow the equivalent at a cost of maybe $0.10 (given that you said it costs about 2 cents for a big company to produce)?

Why are people willing to pay one hundred times the cost of a pack at a store vs. make it themselves?

 

[The Rabbi]

The state will see prices remain high, mainly through taxes. Cigarettes cost about 2 cents a pack to make. Yet they sell for over $4. Most of that is taxes. Dope will be the same because low cost MJ will cause use to increase, which is not a desirable goal.
Beer is not so easy to make, requiring time and some equipment and supplies. Dope requires a flower pot and soil and water.
If you thnk the process for curing tobacco and drying dope are the same you need to look into it more.

Well here's the big question.

Why are people willing to pay $10 for a pack of cigarettes in Chicago (and they do so all of the time in vast, vast quantities), when they could instead grow the equivalent at a cost of maybe $0.10 (given that you said it costs about 2 cents for a big company to produce)?

Why are people willing to pay one hundred times the cost of a pack at a store vs. make it themselves?

You ever try growing tobacco in Chicago?
People do roll their own cigs. A nd especially they cheat the tax man by buying cigs illegally brought in. Why will dope be different?

 

[KevinWestern]

They will simply reduce their prices to beat legal competition. In most cases, its a moot point because of the 12% of the population who participates in cannibus, 100% can grow their own.

Again, 100% of people can brew their own beer with some simple kitchen equipment and minimal effort.

Why do we see so many people purchasing beer at stores/bars with insane taxes and markups? I can brew 5 gallons of beer at literally 1/5 the cost of what a bar would sell it to me at, and maybe 1/2 of what a store would sell.

Why won't you address this very relevant precedent?!

I drink beer often. I even have the glass carboy and some other stuff. I have never bothered to brew beer.
First, it requires more equipment, like bottles. Then the time to do it. Then I can get more variety out of buying different types of beer. Then the uncertainty how my product will turn out.
There is none of this with dope.
OTOH, people do roll their own cigarrrettes and localities have been restricting roll shops where they basically rent rolling machines. So there is tax avoidance in the production of cigs, as well as the sale in very high tax states.

There is no level of uncertainty of how marijuana will turn out based on how you grow it? The guy with the perfectly controlled temperature's weed will turn out exactly the same as the guy who has no heat mechanism and doesn't water properly because he works 12 hours a day elsewhere? That really doesn't sound right at all.

Also, there is no effort/ equipment involved in planting, growing, harvesting, and preparing marijuana? What about a field/place to plant? What about heat lamps? What about tools to test pH of soil?

 

[KevinWestern]

The state will see prices remain high, mainly through taxes. Cigarettes cost about 2 cents a pack to make. Yet they sell for over $4. Most of that is taxes. Dope will be the same because low cost MJ will cause use to increase, which is not a desirable goal.
Beer is not so easy to make, requiring time and some equipment and supplies. Dope requires a flower pot and soil and water.
If you thnk the process for curing tobacco and drying dope are the same you need to look into it more.

Well here's the big question.

Why are people willing to pay $10 for a pack of cigarettes in Chicago (and they do so all of the time in vast, vast quantities), when they could instead grow the equivalent at a cost of maybe $0.10 (given that you said it costs about 2 cents for a big company to produce)?

Why are people willing to pay one hundred times the cost of a pack at a store vs. make it themselves?

You ever try growing tobacco in Chicago?
People do roll their own cigs. A nd especially they cheat the tax man by buying cigs illegally brought in. Why will dope be different?

Yes, people roll their own cigs. A lot do in fact. But no one grows and cures their own tobacco. I know of a homebrew crowd, a homeroast coffee crowd, but never once have I came across a home-tobacco growing crowd. That is the key part of the argument, Rabbi, lol.

Who buys cigarettes illegally brought in? Do you have stats for that? The closest thing to that I know of is folks driving out to the suburbs to buy a cheaper carton. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just saying that I'm a young person who's been around a lot of smokers/parties and never once have I seen someone hit up a black market cigarette dealer, lol.

You just go to the 7/11 across the street....

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Again, 100% of people can brew their own beer with some simple kitchen equipment and minimal effort.

Why do we see so many people purchasing beer at stores/bars with insane taxes and markups? I can brew 5 gallons of beer at literally 1/5 the cost of what a bar would sell it to me at, and maybe 1/2 of what a store would sell.

Why won't you address this very relevant precedent?!

I drink beer often. I even have the glass carboy and some other stuff. I have never bothered to brew beer.
First, it requires more equipment, like bottles. Then the time to do it. Then I can get more variety out of buying different types of beer. Then the uncertainty how my product will turn out.
There is none of this with dope.
OTOH, people do roll their own cigarrrettes and localities have been restricting roll shops where they basically rent rolling machines. So there is tax avoidance in the production of cigs, as well as the sale in very high tax states.

There is no level of uncertainty of how marijuana will turn out based on how you grow it? The guy with the perfectly controlled temperature's weed will turn out exactly the same as the guy who has no heat mechanism and doesn't water properly because he works 12 hours a day elsewhere? There is no additional effort involved in planting, growing, harvesting, and preparing marijuana?

Of course there is. The turn out of any crop is defined by how it is cultivated. More importantly than that, is the strain in which one attempts to grow and where. A lot of effort in the past has gone into concealing a growing operation because it is illegal and comes with some pretty stiff penalties. That is no longer a factor. People can grow the shit in their backyard openly without a risk of penalty. They can grow it in their homes under lights with the same security.

As for brewing beer. You need more than just a little more equipment. You need hops and other items, a sterile environment and quit a bit of know how. On that note, I've brewed beer in the past several times and know many who make their own wines, beers, etc...

Most people consume alcohol socially. And in so, so it in bars, clubs, etc... with the excessive taxation laid on to cannibus cultivators and retailers, you're not going to see the boom in tourist attractions and nights spot that you would see had the state chosent o treat the product as an equal to other products. The tax is stiff, and will cause prices to run businesses that would promote such destinations and attractions rise higher than many will pay. People who want to participate will stay home and do it like they have been for decades.

 

[KevinWestern]

I drink beer often. I even have the glass carboy and some other stuff. I have never bothered to brew beer.
First, it requires more equipment, like bottles. Then the time to do it. Then I can get more variety out of buying different types of beer. Then the uncertainty how my product will turn out.
There is none of this with dope.
OTOH, people do roll their own cigarrrettes and localities have been restricting roll shops where they basically rent rolling machines. So there is tax avoidance in the production of cigs, as well as the sale in very high tax states.

There is no level of uncertainty of how marijuana will turn out based on how you grow it? The guy with the perfectly controlled temperature's weed will turn out exactly the same as the guy who has no heat mechanism and doesn't water properly because he works 12 hours a day elsewhere? There is no additional effort involved in planting, growing, harvesting, and preparing marijuana?

Of course there is. The turn out of any crop is defined by how it is cultivated. More importantly than that, is the strain in which one attempts to grow and where. A lot of effort in the past has gone into concealing a growing operation because it is illegal and comes with some pretty stiff penalties. That is no longer a factor. People can grow the shit in their backyard openly without a risk of penalty. They can grow it in their homes under lights with the same security.

As for brewing beer. You need more than just a little more equipment. You need hops and other items, a sterile environment and quit a bit of know how. On that note, I've brewed beer in the past several times and know many who make their own wines, beers, etc...

Most people consume alcohol socially. And in so, so it in bars, clubs, etc... with the excessive taxation laid on to cannibus cultivators and retailers, you're not going to see the boom in tourist attractions and nights spot that you would see had the state chosent o treat the product as an equal to other products. The tax is stiff, and will cause prices to run businesses that would promote such destinations and attractions rise higher than many will pay. People who want to participate will stay home and do it like they have been for decades.

But this is why I don't buy your argument. I admit I smoke pot on occasion, and I actually wanted some last night. However, in order for me to obtain marijuana, I have to contact a friend who in turn contacts a friend. After 4-6 days it'll be ready.... after 4-6 days, lol.

Then I need to go to an ATM, pull out cash, meet him somewhere in the city (I use public transit so adds on maybe 45-1 hr travel time onto my day), exchange discreetly like I'm some sort of fugitive, and then travel home with the slight risk of getting caught. This becomes ten times crappier when it's 10 degrees out and windy.

Or...

I could have just gone to the store 6 days ago and bought it instantly with a markup. 20 minute transaction vs 6 days.

Get my point?

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Yeah, I do. And it is moot because IT IS NO LONGER ILLEGAL TO GROW. Meaning all those people that were probably within a stone throw from you, will make access to the product much easier. And again, you're making it out as though dispensaries will pop up on every corner. Not so. There will be only so many allowed per county, per city, etc.... You may, under the guise of living in Colorado, still have to drive somewhere to obtain it. You're essentially pushing a case that very few will have the benfit from under the current law. Furthermore, as I've tried to convey, social setting businesses are going to get hosed by these taxes. Making their affordability and desirability greatly diminshed.

it's not like the nearest bodaga is going to have a 20 variety outlet of cannibus to choose from. it's not being treated like alcohol where the grovcer will have it on hand.