Colorado puts 25% tax on marijuana

[Moonglow]

I'd rather pay 25% tax to not be considered a criminal to smoke weed.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Ther eis nothing more convenient than having a bud downt he street who grows and will pass some off on a trade or for less than retail prices. It's going to happen that way when you show up and pay more in a retail outlet than you would by visitng your frind downt he street.

I'm not so suie you understand the dynamic that is unfolding here. People have been growing/distributing/selling marijuna illegally for DECADES. You think suddenly this si going to shore up black markets? That's as naive as the state making it the most excessively taxed product it now has.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

I'd rather pay 25% tax to not be considered a criminal to smoke weed.

In Colorado, can have it both ways. Pay less for quality product as the risk has decreased and still find cultivators and distributors who will sell wears tax free.

On that note, I'm sick of playing repeater. Wait a year and we'll see just how much revenue the state gets from its excessive taxation.

 

[KevinWestern]

Ther eis nothing more convenient than having a bud downt he street who grows and will pass some off on a trade or for less than retail prices. It's going to happen that way when you show up and pay more in a retail outlet than you would by visitng your frind downt he street.

I'm not so suie you understand the dynamic that is unfolding here. People have been growing/distributing/selling marijuna illegally for DECADES. You think suddenly this si going to shore up black markets? That's as naive as the state making it the most excessively taxed product it now has.

Most people get their weed from Mexico, not a bud down the street who grows small scale.

Also, why don't we see the majority of people getting their beer from a buddy who brews down the street, given it's maybe 300-400% cheaper?

 

[The Rabbi]

And some of us warned of exactly that outcome.
Look at NYC, which raised taxes on cigarettes massively. The result is a huge underground economy of black market cigs so big that cops don't even arrest people for selling them in the subways anymore.

well that is a standard law of balance
old as the earth is

Cigarette bootlegging is far easier and less costly than pot bootlegging would be. Cigs have a massive distribution network, at which at any step product can "fall off the truck". Add this to the myriad of places you can buy cigs, and you have massive opprotunity for illegal action. You also have to remember that in NYC the cig tax is not 25%, but closer to 250%, which gives you a much higher incentive to avoid the tax and pocket some of the difference.

Pot doesnt have a big distribution network? Is there any city or even small town where you cannot buy MJ?

 

[eflatminor]

Before the right wingers started the war on drugs...

Number of cannabis dispensary raids under Bush: 0
Under Obama, hundreds.

From the oh-so-right-wing Huffington Post:

Obama Explains Increasing Medical Marijuana Crackdowns, Raids In 'Rolling Stone' Interview

1. Further, the first law to restricted the distribution and use drugs was the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act of 1914, passed under Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat. That law was put on his desk with both houses of Congress being controlled by fellow Democrats.
   
   
2. Later, in 1935, that "right winger" FDR publicly supported the adoption of the Uniform State Narcotic Drug Act. The New York Times used the headline "ROOSEVELT ASKS NARCOTIC WAR AID."
   
   
3. Then, in 1937, the Marijuana Transfer Tax Act was passed, further escalating the war on drugs. Guess who was President then? Guess which party had a SUPERMAJORITY in both houses???
   
   
4. On October 27, 1970, Congress passes the 'Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970', a major expansion on the war on drugs. Guess which party had the majority in BOTH houses in 1970?
   
   
5. In 1973, the DEA was established, this time under a different Congress but once again, both houses had a Democrat majority.
   
   
6. Lastly, the 'Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988', which established the ONDCP (our first Drug Czar), was passed by Congress who had...wait for it...a Democrat majority in both houses.

Once again, your overwhelming bias, hypocrisy, and propensity to lie has been exposed. But you go with what fits your little agenda...

 

[The Rabbi]

Yeah, that's pretty much the idea behind all the sin taxes.

The stoners get behind it because they see it as the best argument for getting it legalized.

Once it is legalized it will pit legal outlets right up against the cartels' established outlets. With any luck at all, we will be having a mexican style drug war right here, and maybe the cartels will be so kind as to take out 60,000 American dealers and users.

Trade war of a different kind.

And yet another stupid argument. Making it legal will take the profits away from the cartels, and there won't be any reason for them to smuggle it into the U.S..

You're not very good at this, are you?
Cartels will now be supplying a legal product that is untaxed in competition with an identical product which is taxed. Bonus question: Do you sell more goods at higher prices or lower prices? Don't take too long to anwer that one.

 

[The Rabbi]

Before the right wingers started the war on drugs...

Number of cannabis dispensary raids under Bush: 0
Under Obama, hundreds.

From the oh-so-right-wing Huffington Post:

Obama Explains Increasing Medical Marijuana Crackdowns, Raids In 'Rolling Stone' Interview

1. Further, the first law to restricted the distribution and use drugs was the Harrison Narcotics Tax Act of 1914, passed under Woodrow Wilson, a Democrat. That law was put on his desk with both houses of Congress being controlled by fellow Democrats.
   
   
2. Later, in 1935, that "right winger" FDR publicly supported the adoption of the Uniform State Narcotic Drug Act. The New York Times used the headline "ROOSEVELT ASKS NARCOTIC WAR AID."
   
   
3. Then, in 1937, the Marijuana Transfer Tax Act was passed, further escalating the war on drugs. Guess who was President then? Guess which party had a SUPERMAJORITY in both houses???
   
   
4. On October 27, 1970, Congress passes the 'Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act of 1970', a major expansion on the war on drugs. Guess which party had the majority in BOTH houses in 1970?
   
   
5. In 1973, the DEA was established, this time under a different Congress but once again, both houses had a Democrat majority.
   
   
6. Lastly, the 'Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988', which established the ONDCP (our first Drug Czar), was passed by Congress who had...wait for it...a Democrat majority in both houses.

Once again, your overwhelming bias, hypocrisy, and propensity to lie has been exposed. But you go with what fits your little agenda...

Facts are mere inconveniences to the Left.

 

[martybegan]

well that is a standard law of balance
old as the earth is

Cigarette bootlegging is far easier and less costly than pot bootlegging would be. Cigs have a massive distribution network, at which at any step product can "fall off the truck". Add this to the myriad of places you can buy cigs, and you have massive opprotunity for illegal action. You also have to remember that in NYC the cig tax is not 25%, but closer to 250%, which gives you a much higher incentive to avoid the tax and pocket some of the difference.

Pot doesnt have a big distribution network? Is there any city or even small town where you cannot buy MJ?

It has a wide distribution network, but it doesnt have the volume of the cig distribution network. The overall quantities are far smaller. To make bootlegging profitable you have to be able to skim enough off the regular network to be able to offer a big enough discount over stamped cigs to make your work profitable.

I dont see the pot bootlegging margins working out, Takeastepback is correct in saying that the homegrowers may have an impact, but our disagreement is on the scale of that impact.

 

[Moonglow]

Ther eis nothing more convenient than having a bud downt he street who grows and will pass some off on a trade or for less than retail prices. It's going to happen that way when you show up and pay more in a retail outlet than you would by visitng your frind downt he street.

I'm not so suie you understand the dynamic that is unfolding here. People have been growing/distributing/selling marijuna illegally for DECADES. You think suddenly this si going to shore up black markets? That's as naive as the state making it the most excessively taxed product it now has.

Most people get their weed from Mexico, not a bud down the street who grows small scale.

Also, why don't we see the majority of people getting their beer from a buddy who brews down the street, given it's maybe 300-400% cheaper?

Most of the bud is not from Mexico, that has dried up. What is going around is medical MJ from the west starting at 100 dollars for 7 grams. Immigration and ICE has been busting the hell out of the illegals.

 

[martybegan]

Once it is legalized it will pit legal outlets right up against the cartels' established outlets. With any luck at all, we will be having a mexican style drug war right here, and maybe the cartels will be so kind as to take out 60,000 American dealers and users.

Trade war of a different kind.

And yet another stupid argument. Making it legal will take the profits away from the cartels, and there won't be any reason for them to smuggle it into the U.S..

You're not very good at this, are you?
Cartels will now be supplying a legal product that is untaxed in competition with an identical product which is taxed. Bonus question: Do you sell more goods at higher prices or lower prices? Don't take too long to anwer that one.

Cartels cannot exist when they trade in a 200% profit margin for a 30% profit margin. Also tax evasion is far far easier to prosecute, as the burden of proof is on YOU to prove you paid your taxes.

The cartels will move into something else still illegal and far more lucrative.

 

[The Rabbi]

Cigarette bootlegging is far easier and less costly than pot bootlegging would be. Cigs have a massive distribution network, at which at any step product can "fall off the truck". Add this to the myriad of places you can buy cigs, and you have massive opprotunity for illegal action. You also have to remember that in NYC the cig tax is not 25%, but closer to 250%, which gives you a much higher incentive to avoid the tax and pocket some of the difference.

Pot doesnt have a big distribution network? Is there any city or even small town where you cannot buy MJ?

It has a wide distribution network, but it doesnt have the volume of the cig distribution network. The overall quantities are far smaller. To make bootlegging profitable you have to be able to skim enough off the regular network to be able to offer a big enough discount over stamped cigs to make your work profitable.

I dont see the pot bootlegging margins working out, Takeastepback is correct in saying that the homegrowers may have an impact, but our disagreement is on the scale of that impact.

That doesnt work for MJ, which has an extensive network of growers and shippers already in place. Cigarettes are relatively hard to make from raw tobacco leaves. Not so with MJ.
Again, you've got a network capable of supplying demand 24/7 to anyone with money that is untaxed. You also can piggyback other ahem products on the network.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Colorado ultimately should have taxed the industry the same as other products ont eh market. They made a mistake with this and it will show in a year.

 

[martybegan]

Pot doesnt have a big distribution network? Is there any city or even small town where you cannot buy MJ?

It has a wide distribution network, but it doesnt have the volume of the cig distribution network. The overall quantities are far smaller. To make bootlegging profitable you have to be able to skim enough off the regular network to be able to offer a big enough discount over stamped cigs to make your work profitable.

I dont see the pot bootlegging margins working out, Takeastepback is correct in saying that the homegrowers may have an impact, but our disagreement is on the scale of that impact.

That doesnt work for MJ, which has an extensive network of growers and shippers already in place. Cigarettes are relatively hard to make from raw tobacco leaves. Not so with MJ.
Again, you've got a network capable of supplying demand 24/7 to anyone with money that is untaxed. You also can piggyback other ahem products on the network.

Some of the growers will go legit. Others will come along once they realize the tax enforcers have a far easier time slamming your ass in fines and jail than the drug criminalization enforcers.

The entire bootlegging network went on to other things (drugs ironically) after prohibition ended, because the cost of running an illegal operation is only supported when you can charge prices that compensate for the illegality and the risk. Even with a 25% tax the cost of being legit will dwarf the costs of running an illegal network except for the case of the stoner dude with 5 plants selling to his 2 buddies, and those guys will probably go out and buy the premium shit from time to time.

 

[KevinWestern]

Here's the other thing, folks might manufacture bud on a small scale (illegally at home), however if you're talking individuals within the United States who are going to invest tens of thousands of dollars into a medium-scale operation (or hundreds of thousands into a large-scale operation) most individuals would like to play things by the books, lol.

The largest manufacturers (who get the lowest prices, and therefore can sell at the lowest price) will be 100% legal and over time will drive out the small black market manufacturers much like Wal-Mart drives out the mom and pop stores.

 

[KevinWestern]

Colorado ultimately should have taxed the industry the same as other products ont eh market. They made a mistake with this and it will show in a year.

You can put a higher tax on items like marijuana, cigarettes, and alcohol and still be OK.

Again, I think most cigarettes and alcohol are taxed at very high rates (when compared to things like rice), yet still are almost completely manufactured in a legal way in the US - do you not agree?

When the beer runs out at a party, I've never heard someone say "does anyone know a good bootlegger who sells at 11pm"? We simply go to a store.

 

[The Rabbi]

And yet another stupid argument. Making it legal will take the profits away from the cartels, and there won't be any reason for them to smuggle it into the U.S..

You're not very good at this, are you?
Cartels will now be supplying a legal product that is untaxed in competition with an identical product which is taxed. Bonus question: Do you sell more goods at higher prices or lower prices? Don't take too long to anwer that one.

Cartels cannot exist when they trade in a 200% profit margin for a 30% profit margin. Also tax evasion is far far easier to prosecute, as the burden of proof is on YOU to prove you paid your taxes.

The cartels will move into something else still illegal and far more lucrative.

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?
Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes. No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.
But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners. But otherwise part of the cost in illegal dope is the risk of getting caught. That goes away, prices go down.

 

[martybegan]

You're not very good at this, are you?
Cartels will now be supplying a legal product that is untaxed in competition with an identical product which is taxed. Bonus question: Do you sell more goods at higher prices or lower prices? Don't take too long to anwer that one.

Cartels cannot exist when they trade in a 200% profit margin for a 30% profit margin. Also tax evasion is far far easier to prosecute, as the burden of proof is on YOU to prove you paid your taxes.

The cartels will move into something else still illegal and far more lucrative.

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?
Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes. No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.
But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners. But otherwise part of the cost in illegal dope is the risk of getting caught. That goes away, prices go down.

Companies will develop all sorts of weed varietals, and will market these to higher end users. These will still cost less, even with the tax, then the current illegal stuff. You will start seeing blends with other smokable herbs, or essences, it will become an industry in the open.

And the money will roll in, for both the legitmate sellers and the government.

 

[The Rabbi]

Cartels cannot exist when they trade in a 200% profit margin for a 30% profit margin. Also tax evasion is far far easier to prosecute, as the burden of proof is on YOU to prove you paid your taxes.

The cartels will move into something else still illegal and far more lucrative.

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?
Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes. No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.
But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners. But otherwise part of the cost in illegal dope is the risk of getting caught. That goes away, prices go down.

Companies will develop all sorts of weed varietals, and will market these to higher end users. These will still cost less, even with the tax, then the current illegal stuff. You will start seeing blends with other smokable herbs, or essences, it will become an industry in the open.

And the money will roll in, for both the legitmate sellers and the government.

About the same time as the Obamacare website is fixed. Yeah.

 

[martybegan]

Why will the state sell mj for less than people are used to paying for it already?
Let's face it: mj is an easy crop to grow with very few barriers to entry. It is in that sense not comparable to beer or alcohol or cigarettes. No one is going to whip up some Martell Cognac in his basement. It's too difficult.
But growing weed is easy. And since the network is already there it will continue. For some people the very fact of its illegality is a draw. As with moonshiners. But otherwise part of the cost in illegal dope is the risk of getting caught. That goes away, prices go down.

Companies will develop all sorts of weed varietals, and will market these to higher end users. These will still cost less, even with the tax, then the current illegal stuff. You will start seeing blends with other smokable herbs, or essences, it will become an industry in the open.

And the money will roll in, for both the legitmate sellers and the government.

About the same time as the Obamacare website is fixed. Yeah.

Actually websites for buying weed will actually work due to the profit motive behind having a working website.