Considerations: The selfishness of #NeverTrump

[Pogo]

In that case you've locked yourself into the dungeon of what I call the RINO Fallacy --- the value that believes the primary goal of politics is to push a political party's interests, as if it were a sports team, and it's all about how many "points" you can put on your imaginary scoreboard, and that's all it is.

Unfortunately for that juvenile fantasy, elected representatives are there to represent the interests of their constituents -- not those of whatever political party. When those interests differ, the former prevails. For the latter to prevail makes a mockery of the entire structure.

I don't know why you lemmings don't get that our Constitution identifies its voice as "We the People of the United States" ---- not "We the Political Parties of the United States". This isn't a game of rugby.

Didn't you tell me recently that you don't consider yourself a Republican?

Yes, and I'm not. I officially de-registered from the Republican Party in 2012. I'm just watching all of this from the outside.

I just think anyone who calls himself a Republican, who swears fealty to his party, and turns on his party to vote for someone who represents the very antithesis of his values, is a traitor. I value loyalty. That isn't. That is one of the many reasons why I left the Republican party. Too much division and betrayal.

Brett Baier asked all the Republican candidates in the March 3 debate:

"Can you support the nominee, even if that nominee is Donald Trump?"



Each and every one of them pledged that they would support the nominee. Trump wound up reversing and making the same pledge. But now that he's basically the nominee, they are one by one going back on their words. Betrayal is an inconceivable concept to me. Not only did they not pledge to run an independent campaign, they pledged to support the nominee.

But there is word circulating that there is an effort by specific Republicans to launch an independent campaign in order to sabotage Trump's presidential bid. They lied on that debate stage in March. I will not be part of a party who has members who view loyalty as optional, not mandatory.

And this is an example of what I just posted. Your overarching concern is the best benefit to the Republican Party, while the best benefit of the United States and its People can go sit on a tack.

That's just weird, dood.

 

[NYcarbineer]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/a-fulfillment-of-prophecy.323464/page-5#post-8133406

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

 

[Pogo]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

Ruh roh -- that doesn't sound "party loyal" to me, comrade. Perhaps we should turn him in for Thoughtcrime.

Maybe he's a LINO?

Link doesn't go to a post though.

 

[Zoom-boing]

There's a lot of people that just don't feel comfortable with his finger on The Button, because they don't know what he could do.

Hmmm. Call me cynical, but I believe nobody can reap any substantial gains by not taking a risk. And before we go any further, I need to clarify that my OP was referring specifically to members of the Republican party, other conservatives, not to the entire electorate.

Clinton is entirely predictable. She'll do things that you guys don't like, sure. But the status quo will remain... she's pretty much a known quantity.

I would view that as a negative. That's another thing, I hear lots of conservatives expressing how disillusioned they are with the "status quo" and voting for Trump would guarantee a disruption to this "status quo." Yet they think he's the devil.

I think election of Trump would guarantee a status quo. Practically everything Trump has promised requires a strong support of congress. His lack luster support and outright opposition from Republicans in Congress are a pretty good indication that he isn't going to get much support as president.

Precisely. Rump is sui generis -- he has no coattails. A Rump Administration would basically be an endless Twitter whine fest about how the "losers" and "pigs" and whatever fresher adolescent terms "aren't giving me what I want", in between railing about the existing enemies of America such as Rosie O'Donnell and the Chicago Cubs.

Deputy Dan has no friends. Persuading Congress is way different from persuading a TV audience that thinks WWE is culture.

You forgot to add that he would be suing media outlets right and left because they were being "unfair" to him. Sounds familiar.

 

[The Rabbi]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

You are assuming Hillary would be worse than Trump. I would make no such assumptions.
Hillary in the WH with a strong GOP Senate and House willing to take her on would be the best outcome.

 

[Pogo]

There's a lot of people that just don't feel comfortable with his finger on The Button, because they don't know what he could do.

Hmmm. Call me cynical, but I believe nobody can reap any substantial gains by not taking a risk. And before we go any further, I need to clarify that my OP was referring specifically to members of the Republican party, other conservatives, not to the entire electorate.

Clinton is entirely predictable. She'll do things that you guys don't like, sure. But the status quo will remain... she's pretty much a known quantity.

I would view that as a negative. That's another thing, I hear lots of conservatives expressing how disillusioned they are with the "status quo" and voting for Trump would guarantee a disruption to this "status quo." Yet they think he's the devil.

I think election of Trump would guarantee a status quo. Practically everything Trump has promised requires a strong support of congress. His lack luster support and outright opposition from Republicans in Congress are a pretty good indication that he isn't going to get much support as president.

Precisely. Rump is sui generis -- he has no coattails. A Rump Administration would basically be an endless Twitter whine fest about how the "losers" and "pigs" and whatever fresher adolescent terms "aren't giving me what I want", in between railing about the existing enemies of America such as Rosie O'Donnell and the Chicago Cubs.

Deputy Dan has no friends. Persuading Congress is way different from persuading a TV audience that thinks WWE is culture.

You forgot to add that he would be suing media outlets right and left because they were being "unfair" to him. Sounds familiar.

Oh he gonna "open up" dem libel laws, in't he? "Open 'em up", build a wall around 'em and make Mexico pay for it, insh'Allah.

"And nobody opens up the law better than I do, believe me. A gaping hole. It'll be YUUUGE".

But never mind that trivial direct assault on the foundation of the Constitution because.... Hillary!

 

[NYcarbineer]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

Ruh roh -- that doesn't sound "party loyal" to me, comrade. Perhaps we should turn him in for Thoughtcrime.

Maybe he's a LINO?

Link doesn't go to a post though.

I clicked the link it drops down to post 227 which is the right one.

 

[Brain357]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

Trump might be the more liberal of the two.

 

[Pogo]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

Ruh roh -- that doesn't sound "party loyal" to me, comrade. Perhaps we should turn him in for Thoughtcrime.

Maybe he's a LINO?

Link doesn't go to a post though.

I clicked the link it drops down to post 227 which is the right one.

For me the link goes to page 5, which means posts 81 through 100, among which it can't find 227.

I think you mean this:

If liberals 'gave a damn' about my economic prospects, why are they spending us into a hole? Why did they pass Obamacare? On a side note, I am a member of a third party. I am a registered libertarian.

--- which according to the permalink is here. What do you get when you click that? Just wondering how this site works.

On a side note, I note that TK can't seem to distinguish between "Liberals" and "Democrats", which is what he actually means there.

 

[Pogo]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

Trump might be the more liberal of the two.

Rump will gladly be whatever sells his Sharper Image at the time. Even if it means completely reversing 20 minutes later, at which time the former position becomes an unposition that never existed. "I never said that"... "I never went bankrupt"...."I saw thousands in Jersey City on television".... etc etc etc ad nauseum.

 

[NYcarbineer]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

Ruh roh -- that doesn't sound "party loyal" to me, comrade. Perhaps we should turn him in for Thoughtcrime.

Maybe he's a LINO?

Link doesn't go to a post though.

I clicked the link it drops down to post 227 which is the right one.

For me the link goes to page 5, which means posts 81 through 100, among which it can't find 227.

I think you mean this:

If liberals 'gave a damn' about my economic prospects, why are they spending us into a hole? Why did they pass Obamacare? On a side note, I am a member of a third party. I am a registered libertarian.

--- which according to the permalink is here. What do you get when you click that? Just wondering how this site works.

On a side note, I note that TK can't seem to distinguish between "Liberals" and "Democrats", which is what he actually means there.

I just clicked your permalink and got the top of page 7 in 'fulfillment of prophecy' thread.

I right click the post # click on 'save link address' and post that. for me it goes to the whole page, then scrolls itself down to the numbered post.

If there's a better way I'd like to know it.

 

[Zoom-boing]

Maybe the plan was to run someone on the R side who claims to be conservative but isn't to make clinton look less left than them, effectively pulling off the 'she's actually to the right of' the R nom because her baggage is so heavy that she wouldn't win otherwise.

 

[The Rabbi]

There's a lot of people that just don't feel comfortable with his finger on The Button, because they don't know what he could do.

Hmmm. Call me cynical, but I believe nobody can reap any substantial gains by not taking a risk. And before we go any further, I need to clarify that my OP was referring specifically to members of the Republican party, other conservatives, not to the entire electorate.

Clinton is entirely predictable. She'll do things that you guys don't like, sure. But the status quo will remain... she's pretty much a known quantity.

I would view that as a negative. That's another thing, I hear lots of conservatives expressing how disillusioned they are with the "status quo" and voting for Trump would guarantee a disruption to this "status quo." Yet they think he's the devil.

I think election of Trump would guarantee a status quo. Practically everything Trump has promised requires a strong support of congress. His lack luster support and outright opposition from Republicans in Congress are a pretty good indication that he isn't going to get much support as president.

Precisely. Rump is sui generis -- he has no coattails. A Rump Administration would basically be an endless Twitter whine fest about how the "losers" and "pigs" and whatever fresher adolescent terms "aren't giving me what I want", in between railing about the existing enemies of America such as Rosie O'Donnell and the Chicago Cubs.

Deputy Dan has no friends. Persuading Congress is way different from persuading a TV audience that thinks WWE is culture.

You forgot to add that he would be suing media outlets right and left because they were being "unfair" to him. Sounds familiar.

Actually Trump is on record calling for restrictions on the First Amendment.

 

[Pogo]

There's a lot of people that just don't feel comfortable with his finger on The Button, because they don't know what he could do.

Hmmm. Call me cynical, but I believe nobody can reap any substantial gains by not taking a risk. And before we go any further, I need to clarify that my OP was referring specifically to members of the Republican party, other conservatives, not to the entire electorate.

Clinton is entirely predictable. She'll do things that you guys don't like, sure. But the status quo will remain... she's pretty much a known quantity.

I would view that as a negative. That's another thing, I hear lots of conservatives expressing how disillusioned they are with the "status quo" and voting for Trump would guarantee a disruption to this "status quo." Yet they think he's the devil.

I think election of Trump would guarantee a status quo. Practically everything Trump has promised requires a strong support of congress. His lack luster support and outright opposition from Republicans in Congress are a pretty good indication that he isn't going to get much support as president.

Precisely. Rump is sui generis -- he has no coattails. A Rump Administration would basically be an endless Twitter whine fest about how the "losers" and "pigs" and whatever fresher adolescent terms "aren't giving me what I want", in between railing about the existing enemies of America such as Rosie O'Donnell and the Chicago Cubs.

Deputy Dan has no friends. Persuading Congress is way different from persuading a TV audience that thinks WWE is culture.

You forgot to add that he would be suing media outlets right and left because they were being "unfair" to him. Sounds familiar.

Actually Trump is on record calling for restrictions on the First Amendment.

Indeed, multiple times. I pointed this out back in post 14. I got crickets from the OP. Crickets I tell you.

 

[Pogo]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

The above is interesting, coming from a guy who said in 2013 that he's a registered Libertarian.

A Fulfillment of Prophecy?

Does that mean that

a. you've since converted to being a supporter of the two party dominated state of affairs?

b . or do you just call yourself a Libertarian, perhaps for the cachet, while in fact you are merely a closet Republican?

Ruh roh -- that doesn't sound "party loyal" to me, comrade. Perhaps we should turn him in for Thoughtcrime.

Maybe he's a LINO?

Link doesn't go to a post though.

I clicked the link it drops down to post 227 which is the right one.

For me the link goes to page 5, which means posts 81 through 100, among which it can't find 227.

I think you mean this:

If liberals 'gave a damn' about my economic prospects, why are they spending us into a hole? Why did they pass Obamacare? On a side note, I am a member of a third party. I am a registered libertarian.

--- which according to the permalink is here. What do you get when you click that? Just wondering how this site works.

On a side note, I note that TK can't seem to distinguish between "Liberals" and "Democrats", which is what he actually means there.

I just clicked your permalink and got the top of page 7 in 'fulfillment of prophecy' thread.

I right click the post # click on 'save link address' and post that. for me it goes to the whole page, then scrolls itself down to the numbered post.

If there's a better way I'd like to know it.

Beats me -- I copied the link of the number in the upper right of the box, and for me that returns post 227. Your previous link contains the post number in the URL but because the same URL directs to "page 5" it's impossible to find it. My screen is set for 20 posts per page -- what is yours set at?



EDIT -- on further review I see my permalink also specifies a page number, in this case "page 12", so it's the same issue either way.

---- in this case if the URL is locked into the page number of only the user that links it.... It cannot be called a permalink since it will only work for that setting.

This is a site issue that should be brought to the attention of the authorities --- cereal_killer

(/offtopic)

 

[Flopper]

If you want, but I think it's a pretty integral part of (or fault in) your argument.

Alright. Explain.

Well, we can start with the fact that this country is clearly not falling apart. There are problems, sure - but nothing close to the level of problems that this country has faced before, and overcome. That's the whole problem with the Trump thing.


As PJ O'Rourke said, Clinton is wrong about everything - but she's wrong with normal parameters. Hilary Clinton is no more the "end of the US" to you guys as GWB was to us.

Clinton is entirely predictable. She'll do things that you guys don't like, sure. But the status quo will remain. Trump, on the other hand, is a wildcard. There's a lot of people that just don't feel comfortable with his finger on The Button, because they don't know what he could do. Clinton, she's pretty much a known quantity.

I think you stated quite well the choice voters face, a known candidate, predictable who is not likely to introduce any blockbuster legislation, make major changes in our foreign policy versus an unknown candidate who lacks both experience and knowledge but promises major changes.

The problem I see with Clinton is she is not a reformer in a time when a large segment of the population is demanding reform. Trump on the other hand promises major reforms to just about everything yet has little support within his own party in congress. Without that support he can do little other than carry on his campaign rhetoric. Regardless who get's elected, I think that the status quo is most likely outcome.

 

[MisterBeale]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

From what I have seen of the Trump campaign, his supporters are voting against the status quo, the party, and the establishment. They are not voting for anything, just against most everything. Trump is a symbol of their discontent.

You might say, he's the Winner of Their Discontent

And I suspect by the time the GE comes around, if he's still in play as a candidate that contingent will have figured that they made their point and go vote for a real candidate, who in effect runs unopposed.

Which is a damn shame.

By the time the election rolls around, Trump will have split the party so badly, That Hillary will need only one slogan, "I'm not Trump".

Ironically the same position Warren Harding found himself in in 1920 -- "I'm not Wilson".

I say 'ironically' since Wilson himself benefited from a similar party split on his way in, where a vociferous New York candidate (TR) ran as a third party after the RP denied him the nomination despite his dominating the primary season, which split the vote three ways, pushing Taft to third place and handing Wilson the Presidency with less than 42% of the vote populi.

Certainly one of the biggest victories for the Deep State the nation has ever seen.

We all know what a traitor to the people Wilson was. . .

 

[Flopper]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

From what I have seen of the Trump campaign, his supporters are voting against the status quo, the party, and the establishment. They are not voting for anything, just against most everything. Trump is a symbol of their discontent.

You might say, he's the Winner of Their Discontent

And I suspect by the time the GE comes around, if he's still in play as a candidate that contingent will have figured that they made their point and go vote for a real candidate, who in effect runs unopposed.

Which is a damn shame.

By the time the election rolls around, Trump will have split the party so badly, That Hillary will need only one slogan, "I'm not Trump".

Ironically the same position Warren Harding found himself in in 1920 -- "I'm not Wilson".

I say 'ironically' since Wilson himself benefited from a similar party split on his way in, where a vociferous New York candidate (TR) ran as a third party after the RP denied him the nomination despite his dominating the primary season, which split the vote three ways, pushing Taft to third place and handing Wilson the Presidency with less than 42% of the vote populi.

Certainly one of the biggest victories for the Deep State the nation has ever seen.

We all know what a traitor to the people Wilson was. . .

With each day, the similarities between Trump and Wilson grow. Trump is every bit the progressive that Wilson was. The difference of course is Wilson had both education in both government administration and political science as well as experience as Governor of New Jersey. However, the biggest difference is Wilson was not bat shit crazy.

 

[U2Edge]

First off I'm going to start with this disclaimer: let it be clear that I'm not telling anyone who to vote for, or demanding that anyone vote at all. This thread is intended to compel the reader to consider the ramifications of their decision to stay home or vote third party, whichever it may be. Once again, do whatever the hell you want, I'm just stating my personal opinion on the subject. Sure, it will sound condescending to some of you, but don't take it personally. I'm not angry with you. If you think it's funny, feel free to press the funny button.

But I want you NeverTrumpers to think about something. Before Hillary ever came along, most of you were preaching of the horrors of what would come to pass if she became president. Then, out of nowhere, Donald Trump began his rapid rise to the top of the GOP presidential field. And then, in a sudden reversal, you began preaching the horrors of what would come to pass if he became the nominee. You wrote him off repeatedly, as a flash in the pan or the like. You kept reassuring yourselves that he would never, ever succeed in his campaign. Suddenly, it became a campaign against Trump, not a unified campaign against Hillary as it should have been.

As the inevitability of Trump's victory began to strike home, more and more of you vowed never to vote for Donald Trump, be it a conflict of values or matters of conscience, out of a fit of anger, or perhaps no matter what. For that, I think you're being selfish, and I'll tell you why. Consider what the future of America would be like if Hillary Clinton were elected president, also consider the possibility that your abstinence could put her there. Is selfishness moral? Is it a virtue, a value you hold dear to your heart? No? Then why? Why would you be so righteously indignant that you're willing to risk the future of America to preserve your own values or conscience? This isn't a noble act, this isn't sending a message, it's downright selfish.

You are all no doubt aware of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia's untimely demise earlier this year, as a result, that leaves his seat vacant, ripe for the picking for the next president to fill. You also have four other aging Justices on the bench right now. Over the next decade, there is a likelihood that those four other seats could become vacant. In addition to appointing a successor for Scalia, a president Hillary Clinton could appoint five liberal justices to the bench. Think about that. There could be seven liberal justices on the bench, redefining the conscience of America, and changing her identity.

From then on, on issues of gun rights, religious freedom, freedom of speech, or abortion, the rulings could be 7-2 against the conservative arguments. Seven to two. Consider this: In an effort to preserve your values and conscience, by voting third party, or staying home out of a sense of righteous indignance, you're willing to risk a future where a majority liberal Supreme Court would be allowed to redefine your values for you. The would be given free reign to twist the Constitution to liberal ideals, essentially erasing the conservative brand from the face of America. You must realize that under a Supreme Court with seven liberal justices,there would never be another conservative victory at the Supreme Court level for at least a generation to come. You would be ensuring in your selfishness, an end to your values amid an ill advised attempt to preserve them.

Now, you all also value individual rights. In one case, Hillary made herself clear that she will use the Supreme Court as a weapon to radically alter Americans rights to bear arms. In essence, using our highest court as a weapon against religious freedom or freedom of speech and every other conservative value we all hold dear. You want to help America, yet you are willing to go about precipitating her destruction. You may hate Trump's guts, and I do understand where you're coming from. But Hillary wouldn't give a damn about you or your beliefs, your faith, or your vaunted values and conscience. Because in her presidency, you may not have the right to any of those things again. Do you want that on your conscience? So if Hillary ultimately wins, don't complain. You put her there.

In sum, and in my own personal opinion, you #NeverTrumpers are being selfish, and you need to grow up and consider the wider ramifications of a Hillary Clinton presidency. If you truly love America, you would do whatever it took to preserve as much of the country you love as you possibly could, to ensure that you maintain an atmosphere that is tolerant of your beliefs, values or conscience, even if that meant holding back a gag reflex in order to vote for Donald Trump in the general election. The ball's in your court. Don't screw this up for the rest of us.

So your worried about Republicans who will vote third party or not at all. Guess what, there is also a third option! Voting for Hillary Clinton!
I have voted Republican all my life, but will vote for a Democrat for the first time in my life this November.

Why Hillary Clinton over Trump. There are many reasons but most involve Foreign Policy and National Security which are the most important things to consider when voting for a President since that is what they have the most influence over from that position in Government.

Hillary Clinton supported removing SADDAM HUSSIEN from power in Iraq which was the right move. Trump was against it.
Hillary Clinton has supported U.S. military operations in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. Trump is either against most of those or questions them.
Hillary Clinton supports Eastern Europe and NATO as Russia has become aggressive. Trump wants to abandon NATO, the most successful military alliance in global history.
Hillary Clinton supports free trade and the global economic order of the past several decades. Trump wants to dismantle it and move towards protectionism which will endanger the United States economy.
Hillary Clinton understands that the United States has vital security interest in the Persian Gulf and will continue to devote resources especially the military to defending those vital interest. Trump wants to abandon defending these areas.
Hillary Clinton would continue U.S. military support for South Korea, Japan, Tawain and the rest of East Asia. Trump wants to abandon this as well and even suggest that South Korea and Japan build their own nuclear weapons.
Hillary Clinton is committed to Nuclear NON-proliferation. Keeping the number of nuclear armed states limited to the current 9. Trump does not care and prefers a Welcome to the Jungle situation where anything goes.
Hillary Clinton wants to continue the internationalist and if need be interventionist policies most U.S. Presidents have supported since World War II. Trump wants to radically change or abandon these policies. Trump is an Isolationist who thinks like many did back in 1815. Its not 1815, its 2016. Its the 21st century and isolationism will never work in a world that becomes more interdependent day by day.

So yes, millions of Republicans when faced with this choice will be gladly be voting for Hillary Clinton in the Fall, because Trumps ideas about Foreign Policy and National Security are wrong and often the result of his own ignorance on these issues.

The Supreme court is important, but not nearly as important as Foreign Policy and National Security.

 

[TemplarKormac]

The Supreme court is important, but not nearly as important as Foreign Policy and National Security.

What good is fighting a war overseas when it becomes a living hell at home? Any decision the Supreme Court makes has a far more direct impact on your life than would any war overseas.