Debunking the WTC 9/11 Molten Steel Argument

[Toro]

Why do you spend so much time trying to debate this? I've always found it interesting that so many people are willing to have debate ad nauseum with people they see as "kooks".

If you think the other side is so crazy, why do you even bother?

Because its not the other side you are trying to convince. It is the unknowing and unopinionated you are trying to convince.

 

[Paulie]

Because its not the other side you are trying to convince. It is the unknowing and unopinionated you are trying to convince.

As in the others who are watching in the shadows?

Let me ask you something...do you believe the official story 100%? Do you have 0 questions regarding what happened on 9/11 before, during, and after?

 

[eots]

9/11: The Case for Controlled Demolition

YouTube
March 29, 2008


http://www.infowars.com/?p=1152

 

[BrianH]

Why do you spend so much time trying to debate this? I've always found it interesting that so many people are willing to have debate ad nauseum with people they see as "kooks".

If you think the other side is so crazy, why do you even bother?

Well, I figure if I'm on the message boards anyway, I'll see what kind of nonsense is dropped on this thread next.

Like I said before, I'm not going to sit here and say that all of the information is out in the open and that I know everything about 9-11. However, you can not say that there is PROOF that 9-11 was an inside job. There is not proof without a reasonable doubt. I'm not saying that eots is completely wrong in his conspiracy theory, but I am saying that he's not right. He has is own theory based on someone elses opinions based on their information. These guys aren't saying "Well, I saw U.S. government agents plant a bomb at the pentagon." or "I saw U.S. government agents hi-jack planes." Their taking bits of information that they think is bogus and forming their own opinions...they have no absolute proof either. The sooner eots realizes that he can't prove his position without a doubt, the quicker this "debate' will end.

 

[eots]

Well, I figure if I'm on the message boards anyway, I'll see what kind of nonsense is dropped on this thread next.

Like I said before, I'm not going to sit here and say that all of the information is out in the open and that I know everything about 9-11. However, you can not say that there is PROOF that 9-11 was an inside job. There is not proof without a reasonable doubt. I'm not saying that eots is completely wrong in his conspiracy theory, but I am saying that he's not right. He has is own theory based on someone elses opinions based on their information. These guys aren't saying "Well, I saw U.S. government agents plant a bomb at the pentagon." or "I saw U.S. government agents hi-jack planes." Their taking bits of information that they think is bogus and forming their own opinions...they have no absolute proof either. The sooner eots realizes that he can't prove his position without a doubt, the quicker this "debate' will end.

and what you need to realize is you have no idea what those that claim
direct knowledge know..and I feel that it should be of grave concern to all that such statements and petitions are made from credible sources ..and no one from the media or the government wishes to speak to them..
FURTHER MORE THERE IS MATERIAL EVIDENCE ..black boxes ,surveillance video of the pentagon.flt data recordings .cockpit recordings,forensic evidence from wtc.. all still classified

 

[Toro]

As in the others who are watching in the shadows?

Let me ask you something...do you believe the official story 100%? Do you have 0 questions regarding what happened on 9/11 before, during, and after?

You'd have to be a fool to believe everything was included in the report.

But I have no doubt that the general theme of the report - that 19 Arabs slammed planes into the WTC and did so trained by al-Qaeda - is correct.

I have also found that people who believe that Bush was behind this or whatever tend to be very prone to believing conspiracy theories, no matter how ridiculous.

Some believe the moon landing was faked.

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Some refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes.

 

[eots]

You'd have to be a fool to believe everything was included in the report.

But I have no doubt that the general theme of the report - that 19 Arabs slammed planes into the WTC and did so trained by al-Qaeda - is correct.

I have also found that people who believe that Bush was behind this or whatever tend to be very prone to believing conspiracy theories, no matter how ridiculous.

Some believe the moon landing was faked.

http://www.ufos-aliens.co.uk/cosmicapollo.html

Some refuse to believe what they see with their own eyes.

most people involved in seeking a true investigation of 911 and release of classified evidence would not dispute that hijacked plans hit wtc 1 and 2
this is not the issue... all-CIA -duh is a puppet and there was ample prior knowledge..there are completely unanswered questions on the failure of NORAD raised by ex-directors themselves.. there are question on able danger.. again supported by those involve that say at minimum a cover-up ..there is the fact that the white house version of the collapse of wtc 1,2,3 does not have credibility..it is a theory that NIST itself now publicly brings in to total doubt saying...these events would have a extremely low rate of probability..and possible blast scenarios should be looked at..so talk of aliens or those types ect is a completely invalid argument..this information is all out there its just not on the eveing news


Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret) – Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart). Appointed by President George H.W. Bush to serve on the American Battle Monuments Commission (1990 - 1994), and on the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces. Military Historian and Deputy Director of Field Operations for the U.S. Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington, D.C. 1990 - 1994.

Article 7/1/06: "The former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense under the Reagan Administration and a highly decorated Vietnam veteran and Colonel has gone on the record to voice his doubts about the official story of 9/11 - calling it ‘the dog that doesn't hunt.’ ‘I'm astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that's accurate,’ he said." http://www.propagandamatrix.com




Capt. Edgar Mitchell, U.S. Navy (ret), BS Industrial Management, BS Aerontautical Engineering, Doctor of Science, Aeronautics and Astronautics from MIT – Pilot and Astronaut. Sixth man to walk on the moon (Apollo 14 mission). Patrol bomber and attack plane pilot, U.S. Navy. Test Pilot, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 5 (VX-5). Chief of Project Management Division, Navy Field Office for the Manned Orbiting Laboratory Project. Graduated first in his class from the Aerospace Research Pilot School, and served as an instructor there. Recipient of many awards and honors including the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the USN Distinguished Medal and three NASA Group Achievement Awards. Inducted to the Space Hall of Fame in 1979 and the Astronaut Hall of Fame in 1998. Recipient of honorary doctorates in engineering from New Mexico State University, the University of Akron, Carnegie Mellon University, and a ScD from Embry-Riddle University. Founder of the Institute of Noetic Sciences.
Endorser of and proposed Commissioner of a New Investigation into 9/11 as described in the New York City Ballot Initiative 11/08: "Petition to Create a NYC Independent Commission with Subpoena Power to Conduct a Comprehensive and Fact-Driven Investigation of All Relevant Aspects of the Tragic Events of September 11, 2001 and Issue a Report.

WHEREAS, many New York City voters believe that there remain many unanswered questions critical to establishing the truth about all relevant events leading up to, during and subsequent to the tragic attacks occurring on September 11, 2001 (“9/11&#8221, and

WHEREAS, no prior investigation by any New York City agency or any other governmental entity has resulted in the citizens being provided with those critical answers or information necessary to establish the truth about those tragic events, ...

An independent, temporary New York City commission (the “Commission&#8221 is hereby created to conduct a comprehensive, factdriven investigation into the events that took place on 9/11, as well as to thoroughly examine related events before and after the attacks, including any activities attempting to hide, cover up, impede or obstruct any investigation into these 9/11 events, following wherever the facts may lead. The Commission shall publish one or more reports of their findings."


Website: http://www


ya whatever...moonboy


Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. 22-year Air Force career. Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University.
Video 9/11/04: "A lot of these pieces of information, taken together, prove that the official story, the official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a bunch of hogwash. It’s impossible. … There’s a second group of facts having to do with the cover up. … Taken together these things prove that high levels of our government don’t want us to know what happened and who’s responsible.…

Who gained from 9/11? Who covered up crucial information about 9/11? And who put out the patently false stories about 9/11 in the first place? When you take those three things together, I think the case is pretty clear that it’s highly placed individuals in the administration with all roads passing through Dick Cheney.

I think the very kindest thing that we can say about George W. Bush and all the people in the U.S. Government that have been involved in this massive cover-up, the very kindest thing we can say is that they were aware of impending attacks and let them happen. Now some people will say that’s much too kind, however even that is high treason and conspiracy to commit murder." http://video.go


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11:
"We want truthful answers to question. … As Americans of conscience, we ask for four things:
An immediate investigation by New York Attorney General Eliot Spitzer
Immediate investigation in Congressional Hearings.
Media attention to scrutinize and investigate the evidence.
The formation of a truly independent citizens-based inquiry." http://www.911truth.org/article



Member: Pilots for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: "Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe that have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day since the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers."


Website: http://www.thepatriots.us

another one of those types


Dwain Deets, MS Physics, MS Eng – Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center. Before this appointment, he served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden. Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award and the Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988). Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics, a distinguished speaking engagement sponsored by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) (1986). Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000. Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers. Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology. 37 year NASA career.
Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:
"The many visual images (massive structural members being hurled horizontally, huge pyroclastic clouds, etc.) leave no doubt in my mind explosives were involved [in the destruction of the World Trade Center]." http://www.ae911truth.org


Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 300 Architects and Engineers:

"On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7. We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php


Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories. It would have been the tallest building in 33 states. Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers. However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks." Watch the collapse video here. And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.


Bio: http://www

christ these nut jobs are everywhere !!!



ya thats right buddy its alien conspiracy people and those that think the moon walk was faked

 

[Toro]

Misread...

 

[BrianH]

and what you need to realize is you have no idea what those that claim
direct knowledge know..and I feel that it should be of grave concern to all that such statements and petitions are made from credible sources ..and no one from the media or the government wishes to speak to them..
FURTHER MORE THERE IS MATERIAL EVIDENCE ..black boxes ,surveillance video of the pentagon.flt data recordings .cockpit recordings,forensic evidence from wtc.. all still classified

Fair enough, but do you have PROOF that 9-11 was an inside job? Now you're changing your statments into saying that you don't know what these guys with direct knowledge know and that their are things that are classified. (Tell us something we don't know) The fact that we don't know what the guys with direct knowledge know, or the fact that we don't know the things that are classified, is exactly my point that you, I, we, have no proof. Like I said before, I can't prove to you that it wasn't an inside job just as much as you can't prove, without a doubt, that it was.

You and Lookout get post all of the time that "This proves that it was an inside job." My point, is that nothing either of you have posted is PROOF, but speculation and unknown information.

 

[eots]

Fair enough, but do you have PROOF that 9-11 was an inside job? Now you're changing your statments into saying that you don't know what these guys with direct knowledge know and that their are things that are classified. (Tell us something we don't know) The fact that we don't know what the guys with direct knowledge know, or the fact that we don't know the things that are classified, is exactly my point that you, I, we, have no proof. Like I said before, I can't prove to you that it wasn't an inside job just as much as you can't prove, without a doubt, that it was.

You and Lookout get post all of the time that "This proves that it was an inside job." My point, is that nothing either of you have posted is PROOF, but speculation and unknown information.

I personally never claimed proof once let alone multiple times ,,i believe 911 was a inside job ,that there was ample prior knowledge and the manner in which wtc 1,2,3 fell strongly indicates the use of explosives which would mean it was indeed a pre planned terror event..there is recent historical precedent to prove that elements within the government have engaged in false flag terror both foreign and domestic and have taken the lives of u.s citizens/cilvilians..the 911 omission report is by all accounts completely lacking IE; there is no mention of building 7...none..there is a mountain of evidence to show the white house version is a series of such highly improbably perfect storm coincidences as to be immpossible and proves the white house version can not be correct..and I believe the withheld evidence and testimony.. would bring to light the truth of 911

ITS CLEAR THIS OPINION IS NOW SHARED BY MANY HIGH LEVEL EXPERTS IN FIELDS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE INNER WORKINGS OF GOVERNMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

it is not the opinion of moon landing theorist but those that have walked on the moon and headed our space programs just to name a few..just face those facts and JOIN IN the demand for a investigation under the terms of the petition

 

[BrianH]

I personally never claimed proof once let alone multiple times ,,i believe 911 was a inside job ,that there was ample prior knowledge and the manner in which wtc 1,2,3 fell strongly indicates the use of explosives which would mean it was indeed a pre planned terror event..there is recent historical precedent to prove that elements within the government have engaged in false flag terror both foreign and domestic and have taken the lives of u.s citizens/cilvilians..the 911 omission report is by all accounts completely lacking IE; there is no mention of building 7...none..there is a mountain of evidence to show the white house version is a series of such highly improbably perfect storm coincidences as to be immpossible and proves the white house version can not be correct..and I believe the withheld evidence and testimony.. would bring to light the truth of 911

ITS CLEAR THIS OPINION IS NOW SHARED BY MANY HIGH LEVEL EXPERTS IN FIELDS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE INNER WORKINGS OF GOVERNMENT AND TECHNOLOGY

it is not the opinion of moon landing theorist but those that have walked on the moon and headed our space programs just to name a few..just face those facts and JOIN IN the demand for a investigation under the terms of the petition

Dude, you've posted mounds and mounds and mounds of "evidence" in an attempt to prove that it was an inside job. Just because you never said, "I have proof" doesn't mean that you weren't trying to prove it. (Of course the other thread about the sugar silo claimed to have proof also)

Like I said, I AGREE THAT THE REPORTS ARE INCOMPLETE...but either way, we still have no proof that it was or wasn't an inside job.

 

[eots]

the sugar silo thread was not mine..and yes i have posted a large ammount of evidence to prove the whithouse version of events is not true and a real investigation is needed to determine the truth

 

[BrianH]

the sugar silo thread was not mine..and yes i have posted a large ammount of evidence to prove the whithouse version of events is not true and a real investigation is needed to determine the truth

Ok, your evidence doesn't prove that the whitehouse version is untrue, but incomplete. There's a fine line. But I agree with that statement.
You need to be more clear on what you're emphasizing. I responded to Lookout's crazy theory about a sugar silo proving that 9-11 was an inside job, and you start bombarding the thread with evidence and was not establishing, clearly, what it is you are incinuating. I believed that it was an attempt to prove that it was an inside job.
While I agree that further investigation would be beneficial, I also believe that an investigation will not prove anything, but create more theory.

50 years of investigations have lead to no resolve in the JFK assassination...

 

[eots]

this is a completely different case than JFK and more importantly a very different time..it is the weakest argument ever to point to a unsolved crime and then say there you go crimes can not be solved..i believe a extremely strong case has been presented to show the white house version of the collapse and events of 911 is not true



UN Could Lead New 9/11 Investigation, Says Japanese MP

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Monday, March 31, 2008





Japanese member of Parliament Yukihisa Fujita told the Alex Jones Show yesterday that a potential new investigation of the 9/11 cover-up could be led by global parliamentarians he has been in contact with, or even by the United Nations itself.

Fujita, an MP for the Japanese Democratic Party, and a member of the House of Councillors in the Diet (national legislature), presented evidence which contradicted the official 9/11 story during a widely publicized Japanese Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee meeting in January of this year.

Following Fujita’s presentation in the Japanese Diet, he also took part in a 9/11 truth conference at the EU Parliament in Brussels on February 26th which was hosted by Italian MEP Giullietto Chiesa (both presentations can be viewed at the end of this article).

"This is something Parliamentarians of various countries could ask - I was in Europe meeting with European MP’s and they are also thinking about asking the UN to investigate, so these kind of efforts need to be done internationally," said Fujita, adding that he had visited eleven different European countries in an attempt to garner support for the move.

Fujita said the reaction to his presentation of the evidence during a session of the Japanese Parliament was encouraging, adding that several members of his party were already aware of some of the issues surrounding the incredulity of the official story.

The Japanese MP said that he first began researching 9/11 around two years ago after watching documentaries and looking at evidence online.

9/11 Truth Conference at EU Parliament in Brussels, February 26th, 2008.



Yukihisa Fujita’s 9/11 Presentation to the Japanese Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee, January 11th, 2008.

"At the beginning I thought I couldn’t believe, this can’t be true, but then last year when I heard more about various facts and photos of the collapse of the seven building (WTC 7) and the put options conducted before 9/11 - I began to see that there was serious evidence that a cover-up might have been involved,"
http://www.infowars.com/?p=1174

 

[BrianH]

this is a completely different case than JFK and more importantly a very different time..it is the weakest argument ever to point to a unsolved crime and then say there you go crimes can not be solved..i believe a extremely strong case has been presented to show the white house version of the collapse and events of 911 is not true



UN Could Lead New 9/11 Investigation, Says Japanese MP

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Monday, March 31, 2008





Japanese member of Parliament Yukihisa Fujita told the Alex Jones Show yesterday that a potential new investigation of the 9/11 cover-up could be led by global parliamentarians he has been in contact with, or even by the United Nations itself.

Fujita, an MP for the Japanese Democratic Party, and a member of the House of Councillors in the Diet (national legislature), presented evidence which contradicted the official 9/11 story during a widely publicized Japanese Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee meeting in January of this year.

Following Fujita’s presentation in the Japanese Diet, he also took part in a 9/11 truth conference at the EU Parliament in Brussels on February 26th which was hosted by Italian MEP Giullietto Chiesa (both presentations can be viewed at the end of this article).

"This is something Parliamentarians of various countries could ask - I was in Europe meeting with European MP’s and they are also thinking about asking the UN to investigate, so these kind of efforts need to be done internationally," said Fujita, adding that he had visited eleven different European countries in an attempt to garner support for the move.

Fujita said the reaction to his presentation of the evidence during a session of the Japanese Parliament was encouraging, adding that several members of his party were already aware of some of the issues surrounding the incredulity of the official story.

The Japanese MP said that he first began researching 9/11 around two years ago after watching documentaries and looking at evidence online.

9/11 Truth Conference at EU Parliament in Brussels, February 26th, 2008.



Yukihisa Fujita’s 9/11 Presentation to the Japanese Defense and Foreign Affairs Committee, January 11th, 2008.

"At the beginning I thought I couldn’t believe, this can’t be true, but then last year when I heard more about various facts and photos of the collapse of the seven building (WTC 7) and the put options conducted before 9/11 - I began to see that there was serious evidence that a cover-up might have been involved,"
http://www.infowars.com/?p=1174

Once again, you are posting an opinion/speculation of a Japanese Member of Parliament based on information that he has gathered. This proves nothing but that he/others want to investigate it further.
You cannot use infowars as a credible source about as much as I cannot use Fox news as a credible source. (I'm not saying that it's a lie, but it still proves only that they want a further investigation)

 

[eots]

Once again, you are posting an opinion/speculation of a Japanese Member of Parliament based on information that he has gathered. This proves nothing but that he/others want to investigate it further.
You cannot use infowars as a credible source about as much as I cannot use Fox news as a credible source. (I'm not saying that it's a lie, but it still proves only that they want a further investigation)

why cant infowars be a credible source .. i have crossed referenced all the information Alex has provided from multiple sources most of his story's are straight from Reuters or AP..BBC..they are just buried in the back pages or mentioned once and dropped..and yes it is reasoned and expert opinion it is speculation..but it is not guess work ..it is speculation backed by evidence,physics and a growing army of prominent scientist and military and government people examining the evidence and concluding the same
Alex Jones has had members of British Parliament on his show ,governors senators,leading university professes acclaimed authers..goldwater..pat bucchanin.. etc..etc alex is a serious and credible news source

 

[BrianH]

why cant infowars be a credible source .. i have crossed referenced all the information Alex has provided from multiple sources most of his story's are straight from Reuters or AP..BBC..they are just buried in the back pages or mentioned once and dropped..and yes it is reasoned and expert opinion it is speculation..but it is not guess work ..it is speculation backed by evidence,physics and a growing army of prominent scientist and military and government people examining the evidence and concluding the same
Alex Jones has had members of British Parliament on his show ,governors senators,leading university professes acclaimed authers..goldwater..pat bucchanin.. etc..etc alex is a serious and credible news source

First, write a college paper using infowars as a source, if you get a good grade on your sources, then your professor doesn't know a credible source if it bit him in the butt. There may be truthfullness to it, but it's not a credible source.

Let me ask you this, why is that that a your speculation based on evidence and information is more credible than thousands of other architects and government officials that view otherwise according to information and evidence? How come the evidence behind your theory is better than the evidence behind the majority of other architects and other agents, etc...?
I'm not saying that either one is right, but it seems like your dismissing alot of other evidence and information brought forth by opponents of the "inside-job thoery"? (Not that I've posted any, but it's out there)

 

[eots]

]First, write a college paper using infowars as a source, if you get a good grade on your sources, then your professor doesn't know a credible source if it bit him in the butt. There may be truthfullness to it, but it's not a credible source.

writing a college paper using any single web site would get the same response but one could certainly write a paper quoting a opinion of Alex Jones or sighting a quote from a prominent guest interview and as i said before Alex does some investigative journalism and it is very good..but for the most part he offers editorial opinion and analysis..of news from the wire services and government documents available to anyone who takes the time to search for them or request them

Let me ask you this, why is that that a your speculation based on evidence and information is more credible than thousands of other architects and government officials that view otherwise according to information and evidence How come the evidence behind your theory is better than the evidence behind the majority of other architects and other agents, etc...?

they dont really exist ..its those that question and those that dont..but those that dont ..do not try to prove anything

I'm not saying that either one is right, but it seems like your dismissing alto of other evidence and information brought forth by opponents of the "inside-job thoery"? (Not that I've posted any, but it's out there)[/

QUOTE]

there are debunking web sites..but nothing with the expertise of patriots question 911 and when 911 commision members and nist cheifs call the whitehouse story implausable.... then it kind of makes these sites irrelavant

 

[jillian]

why cant infowars be a credible source ..

It's not that it CAN'T be... it's that it isn't. We've talked about this... it's taking little bits and pieces of truth and putting them together in ways that aren't justified, hence their being conspiracy theories.

Isn't the actual reality bad enough?

 

[eots]

It's not that it CAN'T be... it's that it isn't. We've talked about this... it's taking little bits and pieces of truth and putting them together in ways that aren't justified, hence their being conspiracy theories.

Isn't the actual reality bad enough?

you say they are are not justified and speak in such vague terms..its basically just an accusation with no specifics