Definitive Proof that GOD Exists?

[Youwerecreated]

As you can see that Angel was God himself.

 

[BreezeWood]

Spiritual nature exists (or is present) in our universe, just as physical nature is. Spiritual nature governs physical nature, and was the Creator of physical nature, physics, science, the five senses, light, electricity, gravity, black holes, dark energy, suns, planets, moons, atmospheres, LIFE, "reality", Big Bangs and Big Crunches, etc., etc., etc.

You have not proven otherwise, thank you for playing.

- and was the Creator of physical nature ... suns, planets, moons, atmospheres,


your abstraction, the OP is based not on physical nature but the nature derived from physiology, 70K years of (mankind only) a connection greater than self ....

prove to us a non physical Spiritual Nature could create an inanimate object.

this is important in understanding the limitations you have determined for Spiritual Nature as not having a physical presence.

or that the physical and spiritual nature of an individual is separable -

 

[edthecynic]

As you can see that Angel was God himself.

Do angels or Gods have genitalia?

 

[Youwerecreated]

As you can see that Angel was God himself.

Do angels or Gods have genitalia?

Starting to sound like many of the other Ideologues on your side. You probably have the same contempt for your parents.

 

[edthecynic]

As you can see that Angel was God himself.

Do angels or Gods have genitalia?

Starting to sound like many of the other Ideologues on your side. You probably have the same contempt for your parents.

Please leave my parents out of the debate.
Thank you.

 

[hobelim]

So you don't think God ever took a lesser form ?

Of course not. I didn't stutter. There never was and there never will be a time when a human being was God or became God either before during or after their physical birth.
even when God 'appears' to a prophet there is never a visible shape or physical form.

whenever God speaks to people he chooses from among those who are closest to him to communicate with those who are far away.

This does not make the prophet, even Jesus , God.

You have not answered whether you believe in Judaism or not. If you're Jewish and believe in the Hebrew God it is clear he took a lesser form. You do sound like you might be a believer of Judaism.

1. Moses was pasturing the flocks of Jethro, his father in law, the chief of Midian, and he led the flocks after the free pastureland, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. א. וּמשֶׁה הָיָה רֹעֶה אֶת צֹאן יִתְרוֹ חֹתְנוֹ כֹּהֵן מִדְיָן וַיִּנְהַג אֶת הַצֹּאן אַחַר הַמִּדְבָּר וַיָּבֹא אֶל הַר הָאֱלֹהִים חֹרֵבָה:


2. An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed. ב. וַיֵּרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהֹוָה אֵלָיו בְּלַבַּת אֵשׁ מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיַּרְא וְהִנֵּה הַסְּנֶה בֹּעֵר בָּאֵשׁ וְהַסְּנֶה אֵינֶנּוּ אֻכָּל:



3. So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?" ג. וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אָסֻרָה נָּא וְאֶרְאֶה אֶת הַמַּרְאֶה הַגָּדֹל הַזֶּה מַדּוּעַ לֹא יִבְעַר הַסְּנֶה:

4. The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and God called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!" ד. וַיַּרְא יְהֹוָה כִּי סָר לִרְאוֹת וַיִּקְרָא אֵלָיו אֱלֹהִים מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה משֶׁה וַיֹּאמֶר הִנֵּנִי:
5. And He said, "Do not draw near here. Take your shoes off your feet, because the place upon which you stand is holy soil." ה. וַיֹּאמֶר אַל תִּקְרַב הֲלֹם שַׁל נְעָלֶיךָ מֵעַל רַגְלֶיךָ כִּי הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה עוֹמֵד עָלָיו אַדְמַת קֹדֶשׁ הוּא:


6. And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God. ו. וַיֹּאמֶר אָנֹכִי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וַיַּסְתֵּר משֶׁה פָּנָיו כִּי יָרֵא מֵהַבִּיט אֶל הָאֱלֹהִים:


Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Before a prophet receives a commission from God they have a vision of the 'glory of God' which is not a visible image. as described in Ezekiel what the prophet 'sees' has an encircling radiance like fire with the many colors of the rainbow that is both translucent and transparent. This 'fire' is seen in the mind and is superimposed over whatever may be in the line of visual sight, as in the case of Moses, a bush.


As he 'comes closer' to God within his mind drawn by the perception of fire, the focus of his mind turns away from the visual and is concentrated on source of the perception of fire and eventually stands in the presence of the living God and hears only a voice.

The means by which God communicates with people is not evidence of God talking a lesser form anymore than you expressing yourself here is evidence of you taking a lesser form.

 

[Boss]

You are simply proving that there is nothing even remotely spiritual in your existence.
Thank you.

Music moves the listener spiritually to emotions of joy, sorrow, etc. The physical instruments reproduce the notes, but the spirit that lives in the arrangement of the notes is what spiritually moves the listener. The inspiration for the music does not have to be spiritual. It can be a sunrise, the passing of a friend, the fluttering of a butterfly or the buzzing of a bee, all physical stimuli that express themselves in the spirit of the music.

You've made my point for me, thanks! What you experience is a spiritual inspiration, means it was inspired by spiritual nature. That isn't spiritual nature itself. It is the product of spiritual nature, indeed. But then... everything is the product of spiritual nature.

We relate to reality through our five senses, correct? But what if humans didn't have these five senses? Would there be a reality? Would things still "exist" or not exist? What about Light? What if light did not exist? Spiritual energy and spiritual nature, created these things and bestowed all of "life" as we know it, with an array of "senses" ...we have five, that we generally recognize. Can you determine which plants to pollinate and organize efficient colonization of billions of people working together for a common objective, each knowing what is expected through telepathy? Well, other species have these "senses" that we sometimes call instinct, but it is amazing how they are able to do what they do. Can you carry 100x your body weight? I can't, that's for sure.

The point is, we have no rational IDEA of how many "senses" are available to spiritual nature. We are only capable of understanding a few. Some people have chosen to close their minds to any comprehension of "senses" outside of their limited five. There is no way to reach those people, it is impossible to do, until they open their minds.

No, what is experienced is physical stimuli. The composer then arranges the notes to stimulate an emotional response in the listener passing the spirit of the composer to the perceptive listener. The physical composer and the physical stimuli exist first.

There is no spiritual energy. Energy is physical and as such can be measured. There is no way to measure your imaginary spiritual energy.

Again, you are completely wrong, and insisting you are right, without any basis or support for your argument. This seems to be as common as Hollie claiming I am arguing "because I say so!"

Regardless of how you explain your analogy with the composer, you haven't shown how spiritual nature didn't exist first. Inspiration is expressed through the music, but this wasn't merely the act of composing, because every human is not able to compose something that spiritually inspires others.

It is true, we can't currently measure, physically, spiritual energy. You are assuming this means we will never be able to. We also can't measure the energy inside black holes, it seems to defy physics because the energy is so strong, light can't escape. Does this mean we can ignore black holes and pretend they don't exist? Figments of our imagination... delusions... optical illusions... we can't currently measure or explain it, therefore, it can't exist! I'm going to start calling this "Ed's Short Bus Special Theory of Relativity."

 

[Boss]

Spiritual nature exists (or is present) in our universe, just as physical nature is. Spiritual nature governs physical nature, and was the Creator of physical nature, physics, science, the five senses, light, electricity, gravity, black holes, dark energy, suns, planets, moons, atmospheres, LIFE, "reality", Big Bangs and Big Crunches, etc., etc., etc.

You have not proven otherwise, thank you for playing.

- and was the Creator of physical nature ... suns, planets, moons, atmospheres,


your abstraction, the OP is based not on physical nature but the nature derived from physiology, 70K years of (mankind only) a connection greater than self ....

prove to us a non physical Spiritual Nature could create an inanimate object.

this is important in understanding the limitations you have determined for Spiritual Nature as not having a physical presence.

or that the physical and spiritual nature of an individual is separable -

I don't understand what you are asking me here. 70k years of human spirituality is a behavioral attribute found in our species, which is unique and different from any other living thing. Setting aside all prejudices and preconceptions, the fact that this behavioral attribute has existed as long as the species, proves the attribute is fundamental and essential to the species. Even Darwin supports this.

I keep hearing "prove" this and "prove" that, but what is meant is, "give me physical proof" and spiritual energy poses a problem in that department. There is all kinds of spiritual proof, but one must first accept that spiritual nature is real.

 

[Hollie]

Spiritual nature exists (or is present) in our universe, just as physical nature is. Spiritual nature governs physical nature, and was the Creator of physical nature, physics, science, the five senses, light, electricity, gravity, black holes, dark energy, suns, planets, moons, atmospheres, LIFE, "reality", Big Bangs and Big Crunches, etc., etc., etc.

You have not proven otherwise, thank you for playing.

- and was the Creator of physical nature ... suns, planets, moons, atmospheres,


your abstraction, the OP is based not on physical nature but the nature derived from physiology, 70K years of (mankind only) a connection greater than self ....

prove to us a non physical Spiritual Nature could create an inanimate object.

this is important in understanding the limitations you have determined for Spiritual Nature as not having a physical presence.

or that the physical and spiritual nature of an individual is separable -

I don't understand what you are asking me here. 70k years of human spirituality is a behavioral attribute found in our species, which is unique and different from any other living thing. Setting aside all prejudices and preconceptions, the fact that this behavioral attribute has existed as long as the species, proves the attribute is fundamental and essential to the species. Even Darwin supports this.

I keep hearing "prove" this and "prove" that, but what is meant is, "give me physical proof" and spiritual energy poses a problem in that department. There is all kinds of spiritual proof, but one must first accept that spiritual nature is real.

What a great argument. A similar version has been used by scam artists, carnival barkers, snake oil salesmen and Kool Aid drinkers for as long as there have been those gullible enough to mouth the bait:
"What I'm telling you is the truth. You must believe me. You can confirm I'm telling the truth by believing I'm telling the truth. There are rewards if you do."

 

[Youwerecreated]

Do angels or Gods have genitalia?

Starting to sound like many of the other Ideologues on your side. You probably have the same contempt for your parents.

Please leave my parents out of the debate.
Thank you.

Fair enough, now leave your insults out please.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Of course not. I didn't stutter. There never was and there never will be a time when a human being was God or became God either before during or after their physical birth.
even when God 'appears' to a prophet there is never a visible shape or physical form.

whenever God speaks to people he chooses from among those who are closest to him to communicate with those who are far away.

This does not make the prophet, even Jesus , God.

You have not answered whether you believe in Judaism or not. If you're Jewish and believe in the Hebrew God it is clear he took a lesser form. You do sound like you might be a believer of Judaism.

1. Moses was pasturing the flocks of Jethro, his father in law, the chief of Midian, and he led the flocks after the free pastureland, and he came to the mountain of God, to Horeb. א. וּמשֶׁה הָיָה רֹעֶה אֶת צֹאן יִתְרוֹ חֹתְנוֹ כֹּהֵן מִדְיָן וַיִּנְהַג אֶת הַצֹּאן אַחַר הַמִּדְבָּר וַיָּבֹא אֶל הַר הָאֱלֹהִים חֹרֵבָה:


2. An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from within the thorn bush, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, but the thorn bush was not being consumed. ב. וַיֵּרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהֹוָה אֵלָיו בְּלַבַּת אֵשׁ מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיַּרְא וְהִנֵּה הַסְּנֶה בֹּעֵר בָּאֵשׁ וְהַסְּנֶה אֵינֶנּוּ אֻכָּל:



3. So Moses said, "Let me turn now and see this great spectacle why does the thorn bush not burn up?" ג. וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אָסֻרָה נָּא וְאֶרְאֶה אֶת הַמַּרְאֶה הַגָּדֹל הַזֶּה מַדּוּעַ לֹא יִבְעַר הַסְּנֶה:

4. The Lord saw that he had turned to see, and God called to him from within the thorn bush, and He said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am!" ד. וַיַּרְא יְהֹוָה כִּי סָר לִרְאוֹת וַיִּקְרָא אֵלָיו אֱלֹהִים מִתּוֹךְ הַסְּנֶה וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה משֶׁה וַיֹּאמֶר הִנֵּנִי:
5. And He said, "Do not draw near here. Take your shoes off your feet, because the place upon which you stand is holy soil." ה. וַיֹּאמֶר אַל תִּקְרַב הֲלֹם שַׁל נְעָלֶיךָ מֵעַל רַגְלֶיךָ כִּי הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה עוֹמֵד עָלָיו אַדְמַת קֹדֶשׁ הוּא:


6. And He said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face because he was afraid to look toward God. ו. וַיֹּאמֶר אָנֹכִי אֱלֹהֵי אָבִיךָ אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וַיַּסְתֵּר משֶׁה פָּנָיו כִּי יָרֵא מֵהַבִּיט אֶל הָאֱלֹהִים:


Exodus - Chapter 3 (Parshah Shemot) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Before a prophet receives a commission from God they have a vision of the 'glory of God' which is not a visible image. as described in Ezekiel what the prophet 'sees' has an encircling radiance like fire with the many colors of the rainbow that is both translucent and transparent. This 'fire' is seen in the mind and is superimposed over whatever may be in the line of visual sight, as in the case of Moses, a bush.


As he 'comes closer' to God within his mind drawn by the perception of fire, the focus of his mind turns away from the visual and is concentrated on source of the perception of fire and eventually stands in the presence of the living God and hears only a voice.

The means by which God communicates with people is not evidence of God talking a lesser form anymore than you expressing yourself here is evidence of you taking a lesser form.

Yes some have seen visions of God but I don't believe moses saw a vision of an God as an Angel did he ?

Why would he ask him to remove his sandals if God was not present ?

The bible does not seem to support what you were implying.




18. And he said: "Show me, now, Your glory!" יח. וַיֹּאמַר הַרְאֵנִי נָא אֶת כְּבֹדֶךָ:

19. He said: "I will let all My goodness pass before you; I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you, and I will favor when I wish to favor, and I will have compassion when I wish to have compassion." יט. וַיֹּאמֶר אֲנִי אַעֲבִיר כָּל טוּבִי עַל פָּנֶיךָ וְקָרָאתִי בְשֵׁם יְהֹוָה לְפָנֶיךָ וְחַנֹּתִי אֶת אֲשֶׁר אָחֹן וְרִחַמְתִּי אֶת אֲשֶׁר אֲרַחֵם:




20. And He said, "You will not be able to see My face, for man shall not see Me and live." כ. וַיֹּאמֶר לֹא תוּכַל לִרְאֹת אֶת פָּנָי כִּי לֹא יִרְאַנִי הָאָדָם וָחָי:

21. And the Lord said: "Behold, there is a place with Me, and you shall stand on the rock. כא. וַיֹּאמֶר יְהֹוָה הִנֵּה מָקוֹם אִתִּי וְנִצַּבְתָּ עַל הַצּוּר:

22. And it shall be that when My glory passes by, I will place you into the cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with My hand until I have passed by. כב. וְהָיָה בַּעֲבֹר כְּבֹדִי וְשַׂמְתִּיךָ בְּנִקְרַת הַצּוּר וְשַׂכֹּתִי כַפִּי עָלֶיךָ עַד עָבְרִי:



23. Then I will remove My hand, and you will see My back but My face shall not be seen." כג. וַהֲסִרֹתִי אֶת כַּפִּי וְרָאִיתָ אֶת אֲחֹרָי וּפָנַי לֹא יֵרָאוּ:


This is where you can see Moses did not see a vision but God's glory.




35. Then the children of Israel would see Moses' face, that the skin of Moses' face had become radiant, and [then] Moses would replace the covering over his face until he would come [again] to speak with Him. לה. וְרָאוּ בְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת פְּנֵי משֶׁה כִּי קָרַן עוֹר פְּנֵי משֶׁה וְהֵשִׁיב משֶׁה אֶת הַמַּסְוֶה עַל פָּנָיו עַד בֹּאוֹ לְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ:

 

[Boss]

- and was the Creator of physical nature ... suns, planets, moons, atmospheres,


your abstraction, the OP is based not on physical nature but the nature derived from physiology, 70K years of (mankind only) a connection greater than self ....

prove to us a non physical Spiritual Nature could create an inanimate object.

this is important in understanding the limitations you have determined for Spiritual Nature as not having a physical presence.

or that the physical and spiritual nature of an individual is separable -

I don't understand what you are asking me here. 70k years of human spirituality is a behavioral attribute found in our species, which is unique and different from any other living thing. Setting aside all prejudices and preconceptions, the fact that this behavioral attribute has existed as long as the species, proves the attribute is fundamental and essential to the species. Even Darwin supports this.

I keep hearing "prove" this and "prove" that, but what is meant is, "give me physical proof" and spiritual energy poses a problem in that department. There is all kinds of spiritual proof, but one must first accept that spiritual nature is real.

What a great argument. A similar version has been used by scam artists, carnival barkers, snake oil salesmen and Kool Aid drinkers for as long as there have been those gullible enough to mouth the bait:
"What I'm telling you is the truth. You must believe me. You can confirm I'm telling the truth by believing I'm telling the truth. There are rewards if you do."

Well, I am sorry you interpret the argument that way, but there is nothing at all similar about my arguments and those of scam artists and carnival barkers.

What I am telling you, is the truth. You can confirm it is the truth if you are able to evaluate the spiritual evidence. You do not need to take my word for this, you can prove it to yourself, if you can evaluate spiritual evidence. I have not promised you a reward if you do, and I personally don't care if you do. My argument takes your viewpoint into account, within the first two paragraphs, and I have not deviated from that argumentative point. You have the inability to analyze things through a spiritual perspective, you lack understanding of spiritual nature and don't accept spiritual evidence. You continue to illustrate how my point is made, that some people are unable to accept spiritual evidence, and thus, are unable to answer the question of god's existence.

The fact that some people are unable to wrap their minds around something, doesn't mean that it's not real. Others, who have not closed their minds to spirituality, are able to objectively evaluate the argument I have made, and it definitively proves the existence of god... or something we can generally relate to as a supreme spiritual force, greater than man. You don't have to believe this, I don't care if you do, it your own loss if you don't. The evidence is still there, the case has still been made, and you've not refuted it. You can't refute it with anything more than "I say so" arguments you accuse me of. That's pathetic.

 

[Boss]

YWC and hobelim... Why are you two having a religious theocracy debate in the middle of my thread?

This topic is established purposely independent of religion and religious arguments. There is no proof that one god exists over another god, or that this is the real god and that isn't.... your understanding of god is wrong and mine is right.... those are legitimate theological topics which would make a great thread, but this debate is regarding the human spirituality trait, and our intrinsic connection to something spiritual. I understand that easily morphs into discussions of religious beliefs, but I have repeatedly requested those be set aside when evaluating the argument in the OP, this isn't about the Bible, or any incarnation of god. Whether Jews are the chosen people of god, etc., are not related to the question of whether spiritual nature exists.

Too many times, the question of god's existence becomes bogged down in just this kind of argument. Man has created religions and with them, images of god they can't support, but have established faith in. I'm not here to present an argument for any of those, they are the manifestation of what I am talking about, spiritual nature and man's ability to connect with it. In order to remain objective in evaluating spiritual existence, we have to be willing to set aside religion and religious arguments. This does not mean they are not valid arguments or can't be true, it just means that we can't allow them to interfere with our objective analysis regarding spiritual existence itself.

 

[hobelim]

YWC and hobelim... Why are you two having a religious theocracy debate in the middle of my thread?

lol...were you an only child?

 

[hobelim]

As you can see that Angel was God himself.

Do angels or Gods have genitalia?

Hmmm, maybe when it is written that this or that was done by the finger of God, it really wasn't his finger?

 

[RoccoR]

Boss, et al,

I have to agree in part.

Too many times, the question of god's existence becomes bogged down in just this kind of argument. Man has created religions and with them, images of god they can't support, but have established faith in. I'm not here to present an argument for any of those, they are the manifestation of what I am talking about, spiritual nature and man's ability to connect with it. In order to remain objective in evaluating spiritual existence, we have to be willing to set aside religion and religious arguments. This does not mean they are not valid arguments or can't be true, it just means that we can't allow them to interfere with our objective analysis regarding spiritual existence itself.

(COMMENT)

A "definitive proof" cannot be based on faith, icons of faith, or post facto documentation (ie the Koran, Torah, Bible) based on hearsay; and organizational constructs built around that hearsay (organized religion).

As for "spiritual existence," or anything "spiritual" in nature, it requires some faith. And while many people may be of a mind to believe in it, it has no "definitive" quality about it. It cannot be used as "proof." Having said that, circumstantial evidence can be accumulated if it has some temporal or material quality to it that can be quantified.

In this regard, we still haven't defined what "God" is; or what we mean by the term. If it cannot be defined, it cannot have an associated "definitive proof."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[hobelim]

22. And it shall be that when My glory passes by, I will place you into the cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with My hand until I have passed by. כב. וְהָיָה בַּעֲבֹר כְּבֹדִי וְשַׂמְתִּיךָ בְּנִקְרַת הַצּוּר וְשַׂכֹּתִי כַפִּי עָלֶיךָ עַד עָבְרִי:



23. Then I will remove My hand, and you will see My back but My face shall not be seen." כג. וַהֲסִרֹתִי אֶת כַּפִּי וְרָאִיתָ אֶת אֲחֹרָי וּפָנַי לֹא יֵרָאוּ:


This is where you can see Moses did not see a vision but God's glory.

If the hand of God covered Moses while God passed by, Moses didn't see anything with his eyes even if he saw only his back.


The burning bush, the vision of Ezekiel, the vision of Isaiah, and even the star of david are all describing the same thing.


aside from all that, even if Moses saw something you call the glory of God, it was not God.

 

[daws101]

yes your ignorance is on display ...
you're not the victor of anything except this: legend in his own mind.
what you've giving yourself over to is the illusion of a creator...I could put my faith in Godzilla and have more proof of his power and existence then you have.

Why is it so easy to doubt the things you say Daws.

Because he is a duplicitous pile of fecal matter?

Isn't there some thing in your belief system about bearing false witness?
anyway, the more you ass hats whine is more proof that you're wrong.

 

[daws101]

Hmm I think we all can agree the big bang if it happened was complete chaos.This planet came from chaos ? Hmm life came from chaos ? don't make any sense.

Design definitely seems like a more viable explanation. Not trying to be a homer !

baahahahahah! we can all agree that you are not rational and that any thing you suggest is also not rational ...

 

[daws101]

I guess nobody wants to have this discussion.

it's been discussed dozens of times in this and other threads. Where have you been?

on other threads trying to sell his bullshit and failing..