Do Americans Know Enough About Russia/Ukraine to Support US Involvement ?

[MisterBeale]

1. Hitler used the same argument when he "supported" the German population in the Sudetenland

Sudetenland | Facts, History, & Annexation by Hitler | Britannica​

https://www.britannica.com › ... › Geographic Regions

Sudetenland, sections of northern and western Bohemia and northern Moravia (modern Czech Republic). The Sudetenland became a major source of contention ...
‎Munich Agreement · ‎Moravia · ‎Bohemia · ‎Konrad Henlein



2. Trump tried to strengthen NATO

Trump pushed NATO nations to pay the 2% of GDP they promised, rather than the 0.8 % they were paying, while America paid the rest.




Get your facts straight.

The US and her allies had to do, only one thing to avoid this war, and to stop a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Stop MAP (member application process,) and NATO exercises with Ukraine. It refused to do those things.

You are ignoring VIctoria Nuland's working with Nazia and the coup of 2014. I don't know why. Either you love war, you love the corruption, or all of a sudden you forgot all about the shit Biden and the left had done. . . who the hell knows?

I watched the Biden set up his cabinate. I knew when he put Victoria Nuland into his administration we were going to have trouble. None of this shit surprised me at all.

The west and Ukraine never held up their end of the Minsk I or Minsk II agreements.

Just because the US does not act when folks cross red lines? Does not mean that Russia will not make good on promises. You are just parroting Atlantic Council propaganda, the same folks that told you the last election was the most fair and secure election in history.

You should just now apply to work for Hillary Clinton's campaign. You believe the propaganda, so you might as well . . .

 

[PoliticalChic]

No, I can't

I went to that link in your article to actually READ the agreement? And the link was dead.

Then? I went to the WAYBACK machine. . . and someone purposely went in, and scrubbed all the links, we are talking hundreds of captures.

That leads me to believe, there are some caveats to this agreement, that this piece of propaganda IS NOT telling us about. Now? If you want to provide for me a link to that agreement that I can actually read? Sure, we'll talk.

It is said. . . “When war is declared, Truth is the first casualty.”

"Can you explain what this post has to do with the 1994 agreement to maintain Ukraine's security and sovereignty?"


"In the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, the United States, Russia, and Britain committed “to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “to refrain from the threat or use of force” against the country. Those assurances played a key role in persuading the Ukrainian government in Kyiv to give up what amounted to the world’s third largest nuclear arsenal, consisting of some 1,900 strategic nuclear warheads.


...Ukraine wanted guarantees or assurances of its security once it got rid of the nuclear arms. The Budapest Memorandum provided security assurances.

... when negotiating the security assurances, U.S. officials told their Ukrainian counterparts that, were Russia to violate them, the United States would take a strong interest and respond."

Why care about Ukraine and the Budapest Memorandum | Brookings

The furor over President Donald Trump’s sordid bid to extort the president of Ukraine into investigating his potential 2020 political opponent raises an obvious question: Why should the United States care so much about Ukraine, a country 5,000 miles away?

www.brookings.edu

Does that help?

 

[protectionist]

What a horrible thread.

In what way ?

 

[PoliticalChic]

The US and her allies had to do, only one thing to avoid this war, and to stop a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Stop MAP (member application process,) and NATO exercises with Ukraine. It refused to do those things.

You are ignoring VIctoria Nuland's working with Nazia and the coup of 2014. I don't know why. Either you love war, you love the corruption, or all of a sudden you forgot all about the shit Biden and the left had done. . . who the hell knows?

I watched the Biden set up his cabinate. I knew when he put Victoria Nuland into his administration we were going to have trouble. None of this shit surprised me at all.

The west and Ukraine never held up their end of the Minsk I or Minsk II agreements.

Just because the US does not act when folks cross red lines? Does not mean that Russia will not make good on promises. You are just parroting Atlantic Council propaganda, the same folks that told you the last election was the most fair and secure election in history.

You should just now apply to work for Hillary Clinton's campaign. You believe the propaganda, so you might as well . . .

"The US and her allies had to do, only one thing to avoid this war,...."

Your analysis is incorrect.


Under Trump, sanctions were applied to Nord Stream, and all parties knew what Trump could and would do.
It's not an accident that the incursion did not occur under Trump.
As an energy independent entity, the US was ready and able to supply Europe and the gas station masquerading as a nation, Russia, knew the implications.


. Days after his inauguration, Biden banned the Keystone Pipeline, and ended the energy independence that Trump gifted to American….

…..and at the same time removed any bar to enriching Putin…..removed sanctions and OK’s Nord Stream 2

Had both policies not been put in place, we’d be able to keep control of the gas station masquerading as a nation, Russia.




Yesterday alone, Biden gifted Putin with $70 milllion in oil purchases from Putin.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The US and her allies had to do, only one thing to avoid this war, and to stop a Russian invasion of Ukraine. Stop MAP (member application process,) and NATO exercises with Ukraine. It refused to do those things.

You are ignoring VIctoria Nuland's working with Nazia and the coup of 2014. I don't know why. Either you love war, you love the corruption, or all of a sudden you forgot all about the shit Biden and the left had done. . . who the hell knows?

I watched the Biden set up his cabinate. I knew when he put Victoria Nuland into his administration we were going to have trouble. None of this shit surprised me at all.

The west and Ukraine never held up their end of the Minsk I or Minsk II agreements.

Just because the US does not act when folks cross red lines? Does not mean that Russia will not make good on promises. You are just parroting Atlantic Council propaganda, the same folks that told you the last election was the most fair and secure election in history.

You should just now apply to work for Hillary Clinton's campaign. You believe the propaganda, so you might as well . . .

Russia has been described as a gas station masquerading as a nation.
This refers to the fact that gas and oil are the core of its economy.


Biden, it appears, is ignorant of this fact.

"U.S. sanctions on Russia not targeting energy markets -State Dept official​

"The sanctions that are being imposed today, as well that could be imposed in the near future, are not targeting and will not target oil and gas flows," said the official, who spoke to reporters on the condition of anonymity. "We would like the market to take note that there's no need for increasing the price at the moment."

U.S. sanctions on Russia not targeting energy markets -State Dept official​

Actions the Biden administration took on Tuesday and may take soon to punish Russia's economy over its aggression in Ukraine are not intended to hit global energy markets, a senior U.S. State Department official said.

www.reuters.com

 

[MisterBeale]

It’s interesting that you blame NATO and not Russia for invading and taking over other peoples territories. Why is that?

I don't.

Of course it is Russia's fault.

Just like when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, it is the fault of the Japanese.


. . . folks that study these things. . . KNOW WHY these powers were provoked though.



If you want to put it in simplistic terms, and say there was no way our imperialistic behavior could have prevented a caged rabid dog from attacking. . you are free to be simple minded.

 

[MisterBeale]

Russia has been described as a gas station masquerading as a nation.
This refers to the fact that gas and oil are the core of its economy.


Biden, it appears, is ignorant of this fact.

"U.S. sanctions on Russia not targeting energy markets -State Dept official​

"The sanctions that are being imposed today, as well that could be imposed in the near future, are not targeting and will not target oil and gas flows," said the official, who spoke to reporters on the condition of anonymity. "We would like the market to take note that there's no need for increasing the price at the moment."

U.S. sanctions on Russia not targeting energy markets -State Dept official​

Actions the Biden administration took on Tuesday and may take soon to punish Russia's economy over its aggression in Ukraine are not intended to hit global energy markets, a senior U.S. State Department official said.

www.reuters.com

I agree.

Nor are they being booted from the swift payment system.

SO? The whole thing seems to me, a very manipulated situation, almost like, the west WANTED him to attack. If they can stop Russia from exporting LNG, and hydrocarbons to Europe, and cause a fertilizer shortage by planting season, (fertilizers are made from hydrocarbons,). . . and if they can cause conflict in the area just west of the Donbas region, one of the most fertile and productive agricultural regions on the planet, to go fallow?

It will add to the global, world wide food shortages, and the perception that there is major climate shifts leading to major famine world wide. If that causes mass starvation to hit Asia, Africa, and a doubling of food prices across the planet, it may in fact be able to justify those climate lock downs the WEF and globalists want. . .

This entire conflict, may in fact, be engineered, for this very purpose, just as Gov. Newsome dumps water during a drought.

It is intended to get the populations of the world to beg for a global government.

Climate Change Lockdowns?

Climate lockdowns? Poor paranoid little Trumpettes! :lol: Just like the oligarchs did with COVID? The same folks that prepared for the pandemic have already run the drills and the simulations. . . . SO? Don't be surprised when it is rolled out. :dunno: WATER WARS: Manufactured Drought to...

www.usmessageboard.com

 

[MisterBeale]

Ok. What was nuts? The idea that Putin invaded because he wanted to? The idea that he was a true believer to get into the CIA? The idea that Russia is too big to invade?

Perhaps it was the idea of War III? Perhaps Cold War 2.0. Or the idea that we are close to a Nuclear War? Which part was crazy to you?

Nobody got into the KGB unless they were true believers in Marxism Leninism. The people were tested often to insure they maintained the faith.

Putin wasn’t senior enough at the time of the collapse to have enough knowledge to see why the Soviet system failed. That means he was left with a belief. The same sort of scary scapegoat belief that led to War II. We were perfect and winning. They lost it for us.

The idea that you know exactly what and how Putin thinks?

Given there is so much evidence out there that contradicts this narrative is a laugh.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I agree.

Nor are they being booted from the swift payment system.

SO? The whole thing seems to me, a very manipulated situation, almost like, the west WANTED him to attack. If they can stop Russia from exporting LNG, and hydrocarbons to Europe, and cause a fertilizer shortage by planting season, (fertilizers are made from hydrocarbons,). . . and if they can cause conflict in the area just west of the Donbas region, one of the most fertile and productive agricultural regions on the planet, to go fallow?

It will add to the global, world wide food shortages, and the perception that there is major climate shifts leading to major famine world wide. If that causes mass starvation to hit Asia, Africa, and a doubling of food prices across the planet, it may in fact be able to justify those climate lock downs the WEF and globalists want. . .

This entire conflict, may in fact, be engineered, for this very purpose, just as Gov. Newsome dumps water during a drought.

It is intended to get the populations of the world to beg for a global government.

Climate Change Lockdowns?

Climate lockdowns? Poor paranoid little Trumpettes! :lol: Just like the oligarchs did with COVID? The same folks that prepared for the pandemic have already run the drills and the simulations. . . . SO? Don't be surprised when it is rolled out. :dunno: WATER WARS: Manufactured Drought to...

www.usmessageboard.com

By 'the West,' you appear to be mistaking the European Party, with Biden as figurehead, for Americans and those favoring Western Civilization.

Under Trump this incursion would not have taken place.



Another example can be found in this thread:

The Geography Of WWIII

Unlike many of our enemies, Americans are too impatient to recognize the path events are taking. This thread is about the most important maritime passage in the world, the South China Sea. China has taken over the straits, and Trump sent US warships through it to keep it open and...

www.usmessageboard.com

See post #381, versus this:

China has declared the South China Sea as their territorial waters. Trump disagrees:


"Navy Destroyer Tests China’s Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands
Warship passage near Paracels latest freedom of navigation operation


A Navy destroyer sailed close to disputed South China Sea islands in a direct challenge to Chinese maritime claims over the strategic waterway.

U.S. and allied warships and aircraft have stepped up naval and air patrols to challenge China's claims to control about 90 percent of the South China Sea. The USS Wayne E. Meyer, a guided-missile destroyer, conducted a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea on Friday.

"This freedom of navigation operation (FONOP) upheld the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea," Cmdr. Reann Mommsen, a spokeswoman for the Pacific Fleet, said in a statement.


"The South China Sea plays an important role in security considerations across East Asia because Northeast Asia relies heavily on the flow of oil and commerce through South China Sea shipping lanes, including more than 80 percent of the crude oil to Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan," the report said.

"The United States demonstrated that innocent passage may not be subject to such restrictions."
Navy Destroyer Tests China's Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands

 

[MisterBeale]

Does that help?

Nope.

You still didn't post the memorandum.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Nope.

You still didn't post the memorandum.

Now you are slithering away from clear and evident facts.


Act like a grown-up.

 

[PoliticalChic]

By 'the West,' you appear to be mistaking the European Party, with Biden as figurehead, for Americans and those favoring Western Civilization.

Under Trump this incursion would not have taken place.



Another example can be found in this thread:

The Geography Of WWIII

Unlike many of our enemies, Americans are too impatient to recognize the path events are taking. This thread is about the most important maritime passage in the world, the South China Sea. China has taken over the straits, and Trump sent US warships through it to keep it open and...

www.usmessageboard.com

See post #381, versus this:

China has declared the South China Sea as their territorial waters. Trump disagrees:


"Navy Destroyer Tests China’s Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands
Warship passage near Paracels latest freedom of navigation operation


A Navy destroyer sailed close to disputed South China Sea islands in a direct challenge to Chinese maritime claims over the strategic waterway.

U.S. and allied warships and aircraft have stepped up naval and air patrols to challenge China's claims to control about 90 percent of the South China Sea. The USS Wayne E. Meyer, a guided-missile destroyer, conducted a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea on Friday.

"This freedom of navigation operation (FONOP) upheld the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea," Cmdr. Reann Mommsen, a spokeswoman for the Pacific Fleet, said in a statement.


"The South China Sea plays an important role in security considerations across East Asia because Northeast Asia relies heavily on the flow of oil and commerce through South China Sea shipping lanes, including more than 80 percent of the crude oil to Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan," the report said.

"The United States demonstrated that innocent passage may not be subject to such restrictions."
Navy Destroyer Tests China's Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands

The ‘funny’ emoticon appears to mean ‘That hurt…I wish I had a way to dispute it.”

 

[SavannahMann]

The idea that you know exactly what and how Putin thinks?

Given there is so much evidence out there that contradicts this narrative is a laugh.

Describe the stated goal of the Soviet Union.

 

[MisterBeale]

By 'the West,' you appear to be mistaking the European Party, with Biden as figurehead, for Americans and those favoring Western Civilization.

Under Trump this incursion would not have taken place.



Another example can be found in this thread:

The Geography Of WWIII

Unlike many of our enemies, Americans are too impatient to recognize the path events are taking. This thread is about the most important maritime passage in the world, the South China Sea. China has taken over the straits, and Trump sent US warships through it to keep it open and...

www.usmessageboard.com

See post #381, versus this:

China has declared the South China Sea as their territorial waters. Trump disagrees:


"Navy Destroyer Tests China’s Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands
Warship passage near Paracels latest freedom of navigation operation


A Navy destroyer sailed close to disputed South China Sea islands in a direct challenge to Chinese maritime claims over the strategic waterway.

U.S. and allied warships and aircraft have stepped up naval and air patrols to challenge China's claims to control about 90 percent of the South China Sea. The USS Wayne E. Meyer, a guided-missile destroyer, conducted a freedom of navigation operation in the South China Sea on Friday.

"This freedom of navigation operation (FONOP) upheld the rights, freedoms, and lawful uses of the sea," Cmdr. Reann Mommsen, a spokeswoman for the Pacific Fleet, said in a statement.


"The South China Sea plays an important role in security considerations across East Asia because Northeast Asia relies heavily on the flow of oil and commerce through South China Sea shipping lanes, including more than 80 percent of the crude oil to Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan," the report said.

"The United States demonstrated that innocent passage may not be subject to such restrictions."
Navy Destroyer Tests China's Claim to Disputed S. China Sea Islands

. . . and tell me WHAT, exactly, Trump would have done differently?

During his campaign, and early days of forming his cabinet, his position was that we needed to look at the need for NATO, he wanted it defunded, and reoriented toward fighting terrorism, NOT antagonizing Russia. I am sorry you have such a short term memory. It was the military-industrial-lobbyists, and their telling him about American jobs that swayed his thinking. . . You really, AREN'T good at this.

This storm is our own doing. If Trump had following his instincts, listened to Kissinger, and redirected NATO, we wouldn't have pushed Russia into China's arms. NOW? You are sounding like Hillary.

Donald J. Trump on Twitter

“My statement on NATO being obsolete and disproportionately too expensive (and unfair) for the U.S. are now, finally, receiving plaudits!”

web.archive.org

​

 

[BWK]

Dictators and Authoritarians????

Yet you support the Wehrmacht.....er, Democrats.....the Party of Obey, and mandates????



Here is your remedial:

One can be a patriot, or a Progresssive Democrat.....but never both....fool.





Let me explain why:

The Constitution was a distillation of the views of Madison, Jefferson and Franklin. Progressivism is from the views of Rousseau, Hegel and Marx.







Now, let's quote 'progressives,' also known as totalitarians.



a. The Germans have a history of embracing authoritarian rule. As the German philosopher Hegel said, “The state says … you must obey …. The state has rights against the individual; its members have obligations, among them that of obeying without protest” (Ralf Dahrendorf, Society and Democracy in Germany).



b. The attitude of the FDR government can be seen in these words of A.B. “Happy” Chandler, a former Kentucky governor: “[A]ll of us owe the government; we owe it for everything we have—and that is the basis of obligation—and the government can take everything we have if the government needs it. . . . The government can assert its right to have all the taxes it needs for any purpose, either now or at any time in the future.”

From a speech delivered on the Senate floor

May 14, 1943 Happy Chandler's dangerous statism - The Bluegrass Institute for Public Policy Solutions



c. Jim Cramer, one of the Left's apparatchiks, say what Democrats believe, encourage.....but blames it on the other side.
“government has a right to force you to obey and has always exercised it especially under GOP”



Anyone think to question what the GOP has forced any to obey about?



Masks?



Injections?



Taxation?







See what I mean about the Left/Progressives lying about everything?



The Democrats are the European Party, the party of Obey.

We’re the other side, the personal liberty, individualism, the right to make personal decisions.

Anyone think to question what the GOP has forced any to obey about?

Banning books, real history, don't say Gay bills, 440 voter suppression bills, the Farm bill, sports socialism, health care for abortion, etc.

This is what a Nazi party looks like; Here's the Long List of Topics Republicans Want Banned From the Classroom

 

[BWK]

Like the Ukranian plutocracy ?

Trump had to pick a side. What's a mafia president to do right?

 

[MisterBeale]

Now you are slithering away from clear and evident facts.


Act like a grown-up.

So you have no proof. . .

You basically admit you can't find the document either, and you post biased sources that claim what that document states, and then claim, "clear and evident facts."

Sorry sister, those aren't facts.

The only facts? Are in a document that the establishment sees fit to hide from us.

duh.

Stop being a child and use your head.

This is why no one takes girls seriously in debates, they use emotions instead of clear logic.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT LOGIC IS?

You can't use cherry picked quotes from a second hand source and tell me that is the whole of the document, sorry.

 

[MisterBeale]

Describe the stated goal of the Soviet Union.

Why?

Is this 1980?

 

[PoliticalChic]

. . . and tell me WHAT, exactly, Trump would have done differently?

During his campaign, and early days of forming his cabinet, his position was that we needed to look at the need for NATO, he wanted it defunded, and reoriented toward fighting terrorism, NOT antagonizing Russia. I am sorry you have such a short term memory. It was the military-industrial-lobbyists, and their telling him about American jobs that swayed his thinking. . . You really, AREN'T good at this.

This storm is our own doing. If Trump had following his instincts, listened to Kissinger, and redirected NATO, we wouldn't have pushed Russia into China's arms. NOW? You are sounding like Hillary.

View attachment 606942

Donald J. Trump on Twitter

“My statement on NATO being obsolete and disproportionately too expensive (and unfair) for the U.S. are now, finally, receiving plaudits!”

web.archive.org

​

Are you serious?????


1. Continued Keystone

2. Continued to encourage exploration and drilling

3. Maintained our energy independence

4. Nord Stream 2: Trump approves sanctions on Russia gas ...​

https://www.bbc.com › news › world-europe-50875935
Dec 21, 2019 — President Donald Trump has signed a law that will impose sanctions on any firm that helps Russia's state-owned gas company, Gazprom, finish a ...

5. Trump pitches US natural gas to European leaders - CNBC​

https://www.cnbc.com › 2017/07/06 › trump-natural-ga...
— President Donald Trump on Thursday pitched U.S. natural gas exports to leaders of 12 Central and Eastern European nations.



6. Not purchased Russian oil when Putin attacked Ukraine.


What the heck is wrong with you??????????


Wake the heck up.

 

[PoliticalChic]

So you have no proof. . .

You basically admit you can't find the document either, and you post biased sources that claim what that document states, and then claim, "clear and evident facts."

Sorry sister, those aren't facts.

The only facts? Are in a document that the establishment sees fit to hide from us.Th

duh.

Stop being a child and use your head.

This is why no one takes girls seriously in debates, they use emotions instead of clear logic.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT LOGIC IS?

You can't use cherry picked quotes from a second hand source and tell me that is the whole of the document, sorry.

I provided "proof" from Left-leaning Brookings Inst.

Their words.

Now you've been reduced to a low-life liar.