Do only Christians go to heaven?

[Mudda]

Because he didn't.

Why do you perpetuate the lie created by his enemies to slander and discredit Jesus?

just like today, even in the first century anyone who claimed to be a god was insane.

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

Scripture is made-up hearsay. Kinda like arguing over a comic book.

How does that vain assertion relate to the question of whether Jesus claimed to be divine? If you don't want to discuss it, don't.

Because the only proof of what Jesus said is in the bible, which is third generation hearsay at best.

You keep saying that like you actually believe it, but it's not germane to the topic.

So you don't disagree with me, good for you.

 

[Mudda]

Jesus claimed one of God's titles. You may disagree with Him because it contradicts your theology, but He claimed it. Oh, and BTW, Jesus wasn't dead when John saw Him, He is alive and well.

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."


revelation 19:10

Because he didn't.

Why do you perpetuate the lie created by his enemies to slander and discredit Jesus?

just like today, even in the first century anyone who claimed to be a god was insane.

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

No you posted a verse of scripture.

Have you never even tried to find another more rational way to interpret what Jesus said that doesn't make him out to be insane?

I've posted multiple verses of Scripture. Obviously, you didn't, and don't have any intention to, find out who is saying He is Alpha and Omega in Isaiah and again in Revelation.

In Isaiah saying that a person would come who would be called "mighty God" does not make them God and does not mean they were or are God. Anyway, the prophecy was about the future king Hezekiah. If Jesus has anything to do with this story at all is in the connection that Jesus himself made to it by referring to the bronze serpent that had become the object of idolatry until Hezekiah came, did what is right in Gods eyes, and destroyed it.

Not sure why you're bringing that into it, since I said nothing about it.

Jesus was dead for a long time before John of Patmos had any vision whatsoever. Even if Jesus claimed to be the first and the last it does not automatically have anything to do with claiming divinity.

It is well known that Jesus was the first fruits of those who are asleep, the dead.

It is also well known that he will be the last whenever he appears again, to free whoever remains in hells keeping, and raise the dead. Some will purify their minds and be refined making their robes shining white while others will understand and do nothing.

See? Nothing to do with claiming to be God, or, in other words, being insane.

Since you seem to be unaware:

Isaiah 41:4

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10, 11

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:17,18

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus claimed one of God's titles. You may disagree with Him because it contradicts your theology, but He claimed it. Oh, and BTW, Jesus wasn't dead when John saw Him, He is alive and well.

Do you have any actual proof for this? Or this is just wishful thinking?

 

[hobelim]

No, you are making logical leaps that are not there. You can't read into the scriptures whatever you want, only what the scriptures tell you they mean.

When Jesus, the first fruits of the dead, says he is the first and last I am reading what scripture tells me the first and last means coming from Jesus.

If Jesus was claiming to be God he was insane and his opponents were right to reject him out of hand. If Jesus never claimed to be God his opponents were also always right to reject out of hand what you claim about Jesus.

Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[hadit]

Jesus claimed one of God's titles. You may disagree with Him because it contradicts your theology, but He claimed it. Oh, and BTW, Jesus wasn't dead when John saw Him, He is alive and well.

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."


revelation 19:10

Do you actually READ the Bible when you find these little gems? You do know, don't you, that it was one of the angels that John fell in front of? Go back to chapter 17 for the start of his interaction with the angel. If you read from there, it is clear that John is not talking to Jesus at that time:

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

 

[hadit]

Jesus claimed one of God's titles. You may disagree with Him because it contradicts your theology, but He claimed it. Oh, and BTW, Jesus wasn't dead when John saw Him, He is alive and well.

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, ‘Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."


revelation 19:10

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

No you posted a verse of scripture.

Have you never even tried to find another more rational way to interpret what Jesus said that doesn't make him out to be insane?

I've posted multiple verses of Scripture. Obviously, you didn't, and don't have any intention to, find out who is saying He is Alpha and Omega in Isaiah and again in Revelation.

In Isaiah saying that a person would come who would be called "mighty God" does not make them God and does not mean they were or are God. Anyway, the prophecy was about the future king Hezekiah. If Jesus has anything to do with this story at all is in the connection that Jesus himself made to it by referring to the bronze serpent that had become the object of idolatry until Hezekiah came, did what is right in Gods eyes, and destroyed it.

Not sure why you're bringing that into it, since I said nothing about it.

Jesus was dead for a long time before John of Patmos had any vision whatsoever. Even if Jesus claimed to be the first and the last it does not automatically have anything to do with claiming divinity.

It is well known that Jesus was the first fruits of those who are asleep, the dead.

It is also well known that he will be the last whenever he appears again, to free whoever remains in hells keeping, and raise the dead. Some will purify their minds and be refined making their robes shining white while others will understand and do nothing.

See? Nothing to do with claiming to be God, or, in other words, being insane.

Since you seem to be unaware:

Isaiah 41:4

4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10, 11

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:17,18

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus claimed one of God's titles. You may disagree with Him because it contradicts your theology, but He claimed it. Oh, and BTW, Jesus wasn't dead when John saw Him, He is alive and well.

Do you have any actual proof for this? Or this is just wishful thinking?

Do you realize the fallacy of what you are asking and how it has no bearing on the discussion?

 

[hadit]

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

No you posted a verse of scripture.

Have you never even tried to find another more rational way to interpret what Jesus said that doesn't make him out to be insane?

I've posted multiple verses of Scripture. Obviously, you didn't, and don't have any intention to, find out who is saying He is Alpha and Omega in Isaiah and again in Revelation.

Do you have any proof that scripture is actually what happened and what people said...? Or is it more of a wishful thinking kind of thing with you.

Do you have any proof that alien abductions are for real, or have you just decided the accounts lend credibility to the idea without solid, scientific, reproducible evidence?

I never said that alien abductions were proven, but are much more likely than the god of the bible, but so far no real smoking gun in either case.

You give credibility to stories that cannot be scientifically verified. IOW, you have faith. Yet you disparage those who also have faith, but in something else.

 

[hadit]

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

Scripture is made-up hearsay. Kinda like arguing over a comic book.

How does that vain assertion relate to the question of whether Jesus claimed to be divine? If you don't want to discuss it, don't.

Because the only proof of what Jesus said is in the bible, which is third generation hearsay at best.

You keep saying that like you actually believe it, but it's not germane to the topic.

So you don't disagree with me, good for you.

My agreement or disagreement with that is not on the table.

 

[hadit]

No, you are making logical leaps that are not there. You can't read into the scriptures whatever you want, only what the scriptures tell you they mean.

When Jesus, the first fruits of the dead, says he is the first and last I am reading what scripture tells me the first and last means coming from Jesus.

If Jesus was claiming to be God he was insane and his opponents were right to reject him out of hand. If Jesus never claimed to be God his opponents were also always right to reject out of hand what you claim about Jesus.

Thats the way the cookie crumbles.

When Jesus says several times that He is the first and the last, echoing the declaration in Isaiah, He is stating that He is God. Enjoy your crumbs.

 

[hobelim]

Do you actually READ the Bible when you find these little gems? You do know, don't you, that it was one of the angels that John fell in front of? Go back to chapter 17 for the start of his interaction with the angel. If you read from there, it is clear that John is not talking to Jesus at that time:

Sure I read it. In fact I read it all the way to Rev 22:9 where an angel also says when again John fell at his feet in worship;

“You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

"And this same angel also says in rev 22:13, just a few lines away,

"I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end."

To me the obvious interpretation is that Jesus as the first fruit of the dead began Christianity. By the look of things, when he returns after every fish in the sea has died, and the antichrist, a false counterfeit Jesus who claimed to be greater than God has marked the unfaithful, and persecuted those who maintain their allegiance to God and the Jesus who actually existed as he already has for millennia, he will return to end it.

 

[hadit]

Do you actually READ the Bible when you find these little gems? You do know, don't you, that it was one of the angels that John fell in front of? Go back to chapter 17 for the start of his interaction with the angel. If you read from there, it is clear that John is not talking to Jesus at that time:

Sure I read it. In fact I read it all the way to Rev 22:9 where an angel also says when again John fell at his feet in worship;

“You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

"And this same angel also says in rev 22:13, just a few lines away,

"I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end."

To me the obvious interpretation is that Jesus as the first fruit of the dead began Christianity. By the look of things, when he returns after every fish in the sea has died, he will return to end it.

If you actually read that passage, it's clear the angel was not speaking of himself.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

 

[hobelim]

Do you actually READ the Bible when you find these little gems? You do know, don't you, that it was one of the angels that John fell in front of? Go back to chapter 17 for the start of his interaction with the angel. If you read from there, it is clear that John is not talking to Jesus at that time:

Sure I read it. In fact I read it all the way to Rev 22:9 where an angel also says when again John fell at his feet in worship;

“You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

"And this same angel also says in rev 22:13, just a few lines away,

"I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end."

To me the obvious interpretation is that Jesus as the first fruit of the dead began Christianity. By the look of things, when he returns after every fish in the sea has died, he will return to end it.

If you actually read that passage, it's clear the angel was not speaking of himself.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The first and the last what? The beginning and the end of what?

Jesus began Christianity after rising from the dead, he will return to end Christianity after rising from the dead.

Don't take it too hard, its actually a very good thing.

When Jesus emerges from the clouds that have obscured him for the past several thousand years of darkness the reign of the Antichrist will come to a sudden, spectacular, and permanent end.

There will probably even be a party. Woo hoo! For it is written, he liked to party.

Better trade in those filthy rags you are wearing or else the doorman will never let you in.




"For outside are dogs and sorcerers, etc, and all those who only love and practice deceit" and all that jazz.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Accept the gift that Christ offered you from the cross. I don't care what you call yourself, Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. NO ONE goes to the Father except through Him.
I don't know how much clearer He could have made it.

He could have made it a lot clearer, but, then again, there was no such thing as freedom of expression.

Since its all so clear to you why not explain what Jesus meant?

Exactly how does a person goes through Jesus to go to the Father?

Pray to Jesus as if he was God and then you will go on to the Father?

Eat Jesus crackers and drink Jesus juice every other sunday and high holy day until you are dead and then you will see God?


Take your time........

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Gal.1: 4
who gave Himself for our sins to rescue us..

Propitiation:
A two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him. It comes from a form of the Latin verb "propitiare," which means “to appease.”

What is it about those words above that escapes your understanding?
Sin keeps us from God. Christ removed ours to the extent that God remembers our sin no more. It is removed, put behind Him, as far as the east is from the west.

Hebrews 8:12
I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more.

Isaiah 43:25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.”

It just doesn't get any clearer... You can die with your sins intact, or you can accept the gift that Christ died to give us. He loves us that much. Choice is yours. You choose where you spend eternity.

To your lack of understanding about Jesus crackers and juice:
It has nothing to do with every other Sunday or Holy Days, or Christmas or dogma or doctrine..
Christ said to do it often. Do what? Remember what it cost Him to remove from us what separates us from God. Do it with a piece of toast and a cup of coffee in the morning. And then Thank Him. He paid the price so you do not have to. Then offered it to us as a gift.

I hope that helps clear things up for you. If God ever acknowledges the religion you have made up, leaning on your own understanding, then you'll have my attention. Till then, Christ is the way, the truth and the sole reason for my redemption, not the gospel of Hob, or Breeze...

 

[SoCalSmurf]

John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[nicoleivy5]

John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

agreed

 

[hobelim]

John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

OK, I happen to agree with this, but would like to know how you interpret this saying since Irish Ram wasn't able to put together a coherent response.

What did Jesus mean by saying, "I am the way, the truth and the life?

What does, "no man cometh unto the father, but by me", mean?

If you have already cometh to the Father by Jesus you would surely already know this.

 

[Andylusion]

Then why do you deny that Jesus claimed to be God?

Because he didn't.

Why do you perpetuate the lie created by his enemies to slander and discredit Jesus?

just like today, even in the first century anyone who claimed to be a god was insane.

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

Scripture is made-up hearsay. Kinda like arguing over a comic book.

How does that vain assertion relate to the question of whether Jesus claimed to be divine? If you don't want to discuss it, don't.

Because the only proof of what Jesus said is in the bible, which is third generation hearsay at best.

First I would deny it was third generation hearsay. Many of the authors were alive with Jesus.

Further many of his followers were killed for their faith. If Jesus had not said the things they say he said... then everyone who was also alive at the time, would have said they were making it up. They would have been discredited, and ignored as the ravings of mad men.

Instead they were perused and murdered for their faith.

Moreover, the Jewish leadership, as recorded in the Talmud, never sought to contradict claims of what he said, only to discredit what he said was true.

Lastly, while 'the bible' is the only primary source for things directly said by Jesus... the Bible is a compilation of sources. It's actually a half dozen different sources.

 

[nicoleivy5]

Because he didn't.

Why do you perpetuate the lie created by his enemies to slander and discredit Jesus?

just like today, even in the first century anyone who claimed to be a god was insane.

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

Scripture is made-up hearsay. Kinda like arguing over a comic book.

How does that vain assertion relate to the question of whether Jesus claimed to be divine? If you don't want to discuss it, don't.

Because the only proof of what Jesus said is in the bible, which is third generation hearsay at best.

First I would deny it was third generation hearsay. Many of the authors were alive with Jesus.

Further many of his followers were killed for their faith. If Jesus had not said the things they say he said... then everyone who was also alive at the time, would have said they were making it up. They would have been discredited, and ignored as the ravings of mad men.

Instead they were perused and murdered for their faith.

Moreover, the Jewish leadership, as recorded in the Talmud, never sought to contradict claims of what he said, only to discredit what he said was true.

Lastly, while 'the bible' is the only primary source for things directly said by Jesus... the Bible is a compilation of sources. It's actually a half dozen different sources.

agreed fully

 

[hobelim]

To your lack of understanding about Jesus crackers and juice:
It has nothing to do with every other Sunday or Holy Days, or Christmas or dogma or doctrine..
Christ said to do it often. Do what? Remember what it cost Him to remove from us what separates us from God. Do it with a piece of toast and a cup of coffee in the morning. And then Thank Him. He paid the price so you do not have to. Then offered it to us as a gift.

I hope that helps clear things up for you. I

Thanks, got it.

All anyone needs to do is to be thankful to Jesus over toast and coffee in the morning and everything will be just peachy.

Thats what you get out of the story? Jesus did all the suffering so you don't have to do anything about your own sins except say thank you?

What? Are you 8 years old?

How old were you when you arrived at the so called age of reason and received your first communion?

Call me crazy but it seems like you died in that very day.

 

[hadit]

Because he didn't.

Why do you perpetuate the lie created by his enemies to slander and discredit Jesus?

just like today, even in the first century anyone who claimed to be a god was insane.

I've shown you where He did. You ignored it.

Scripture is made-up hearsay. Kinda like arguing over a comic book.

How does that vain assertion relate to the question of whether Jesus claimed to be divine? If you don't want to discuss it, don't.

Because the only proof of what Jesus said is in the bible, which is third generation hearsay at best.

First I would deny it was third generation hearsay. Many of the authors were alive with Jesus.

Further many of his followers were killed for their faith. If Jesus had not said the things they say he said... then everyone who was also alive at the time, would have said they were making it up. They would have been discredited, and ignored as the ravings of mad men.

Instead they were perused and murdered for their faith.

Moreover, the Jewish leadership, as recorded in the Talmud, never sought to contradict claims of what he said, only to discredit what he said was true.

Lastly, while 'the bible' is the only primary source for things directly said by Jesus... the Bible is a compilation of sources. It's actually a half dozen different sources.

Paul even mentioned in one of his letters that there were many who had seen the resurrected Christ who were still alive at the time he wrote the letter.

 

[hadit]

Do you actually READ the Bible when you find these little gems? You do know, don't you, that it was one of the angels that John fell in front of? Go back to chapter 17 for the start of his interaction with the angel. If you read from there, it is clear that John is not talking to Jesus at that time:

Sure I read it. In fact I read it all the way to Rev 22:9 where an angel also says when again John fell at his feet in worship;

“You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

"And this same angel also says in rev 22:13, just a few lines away,

"I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end."

To me the obvious interpretation is that Jesus as the first fruit of the dead began Christianity. By the look of things, when he returns after every fish in the sea has died, he will return to end it.

If you actually read that passage, it's clear the angel was not speaking of himself.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

The first and the last what? The beginning and the end of what?

Jesus began Christianity after rising from the dead, he will return to end Christianity after rising from the dead.

Don't take it too hard, its actually a very good thing.

When Jesus emerges from the clouds that have obscured him for the past several thousand years of darkness the reign of the Antichrist will come to a sudden, spectacular, and permanent end.

There will probably even be a party. Woo hoo! For it is written, he liked to party.

Better trade in those filthy rags you are wearing or else the doorman will never let you in.




"For outside are dogs and sorcerers, etc, and all those who only love and practice deceit" and all that jazz.

Jesus is The First and the Last of all things. The Beginning and the End of all things. IOW, from eternity past to eternity future.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made.

It is one of God's titles, and Jesus claimed it.