Do Palestinians Have the Right to Defend Themselves?

[Roudy]

There is nothing wrong with my comparisons, they are absolutely a propos. Your claiming they are not makes no difference. I am not the only one that judges Israel to be an Apartheid state. Nelson Mandela, Jimmy Carter, Archbishop Tutu, the U.S. Secretary of State Kerry said as much but had to apologize. Mandela and Tutu ought to know what Apartheid is like, don't you think. Plus I look at the definition of Apartheid and I can't see how anyone does not believe that Israel does not commit the acts that define Apartheid at the expense of the Palestinians.

The International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, adopted by the U.N. General Assembly in 1973 states in Article 1 that Apartheid includes acts

"committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them."

1965 International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination defines Racial discrimination as:


"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

Your comparisons like your claims are bullshit. Arab Muslims including those of the Palestinian variety, are the biggest and worst practitioners of apartheid today.

 

[montelatici]

Rocco, we can discuss the legality (whether it was within the power of the General Assembly to do so) and morality of establishing a European colony in Palestine at the expense of the Muslims and Christians living there separately.

I was only making it clear that the Arabs owned 85% of the land in Palestine at the time of partition. This fact is stated in the report A/364, repeated in the Anglo-American Committee's Survey of Palestine and many other documents. It may be of no consequence to you, as it doesn't affect sovereignty issues, but I am sure that it was of great consequence to the Christian and Muslims that lost their land to the European Jews.

There are some that post here that believe that somehow the European Jews purchased the land that is Israel. That is clearly not the case.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Whether or not I agree with your position is unimportant.

That is what Abbas asked for without consulting the people. Does Abbas have the authority to unilaterally change Palestine's borders without public approval?

The most consistent complaint of the PA/PLO is that they do not represent the people.

Now off of the smoke and back to the subject of Palestine's international borders.

The general principle of law "ex injuria jus non oritur" is relevant in this context. A claim to a territorial title which originates in an illegal act is invalid. This relates to the Palestinian territories seized in 1948 as well as to those occupied in 1967.[23] Israel’s status in those territories is that of a “belligerent occupant.”

Palestinian-Israeli Conflict​

This reiterates what I and many Palestinians have been saying for years. Israel has never legally acquired any territory.

(COMMENT)

The 1948-1949 War of Independence, --- initiated on the day the Jewish Declared Independence on the basis of coordination with the UN, the UN Partition Plan, and the completing the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, --- was to resolve that very dispute. And based, in part, on the military outcome of that War, the UN determined that Israel should be recognized as a member state.

As for the representation of the people; this was a decision made by the League of Arab States:

• 
  2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

The Palestinian must maintain the illusion that the State of Israel was established illegally; and that the resolutions representing the Partition Plan, representing a favorable Security Council recommendation, and the General Assembly approval (A/RES/181 --- S/RES/69 --- A/RES/273) where all wrong --- and only the Palestinians knew the legality of the outcome. If the Palestinians lose the the question of legality --- it removes any justification for the rebelliousness, occupation belligerence, and terrorism that the Palestinians have become known for over the last seven decades.

1. Acknowledges (A/RES/43/177) the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988;

2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;

3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to take the necessary action to implement the present resolution.​

It is absolutely unknown what the Palestinians think can resolve the issues they have and refuse to discuss peace terms over. But, it is not reasonable to assume that Israel will relinquish the territory it maintains as sovereign today. The Peace terms and border questions that cover the Gaza Strip and West Bank are explained in the respect peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.

If the UN did not have any authority in the recognition of Israel, then it has no authority in the recognition of the 1988 State of Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I understand.

Rocco, we can discuss the legality (whether it was within the power of the General Assembly to do so) and morality of establishing a European colony in Palestine at the expense of the Muslims and Christians living there separately.

I was only making it clear that the Arabs owned 85% of the land in Palestine at the time of partition. This fact is stated in the report A/364, repeated in the Anglo-American Committee's Survey of Palestine and many other documents. It may be of no consequence to you, as it doesn't affect sovereignty issues, but I am sure that it was of great consequence to the Christian and Muslims that lost their land to the European Jews.

There are some that post here that believe that somehow the European Jews purchased the land that is Israel. That is clearly not the case.

(COMMENT)

Remember, you have to look at the A/364 UNSCOP Report in its entirety and not just a single aspect. Again, the A/364 UNSCOP Report was an enclosure to the recommendation and then the Resolution on the Partition Plan. That small piece of information was insufficient when it came to the total evaluation on the adoption of the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pbel]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I read this report, which was one of the UNSCOP Reports on which the Partition Plan Recommendation A/RES/181(II) was based upon. But my chief observation still holds.

• EXCERPT from A/RES/181(II): Having received and examined the report of the Special Committee (document A/364) 1/ including a number of unanimous recommendations and a plan of partition with economic union approved by the majority of the Special Committee,

Here it is Rocco. You are confusing the legal opinion in
A/AC.14/32, which indeed does not discuss land ownership with the document below:

• General Assembly A/364 3 September 1947

164. The Arab population, despite the strenuous efforts of Jews to acquire land in Palestine, at present remains in possession of approximately 85 per cent of the land. The provisions of the land transfer regulations of 1940, which gave effect to the 1939 White Paper policy, have severely restricted the Jewish efforts to acquire new land.

A 364 of 3 September 1947

(COMMENT)

Two points need to be added to complete your hypothesis:

First:

110. The Mandatory’s new statement of policy was examined by the Permanent Mandates Commission at their thirty-sixth session in June, 1939. the commission reported that:

“the policy set out in the White Paper was not in accordance with the interpretation which, in agreement with the Mandatory Power and the Council, the Commission had always placed upon the Palestine Mandate.”​

AND

105. Nothing was said in the White Paper on the constitution of the independent State, beyond the general principle that it must enable Arabs and Jews to share in government in such a way that the essential interests of each were safeguarded. The colonial Secretary, when he subsequently appeared before the Permanent Mandates commission, indicated two possible means through which effect might be given to this principle in the future constitution. There might, he suggested, be a federal system with equal representation in the central institutions for an Arab province and a Jewish province. Or, if the State was constructed on a unitary and not a federal basis, the constitution might provide that, on matters of importance, no decision could be taken unless a majority of the Arab and a majority of the Jewish members of the legislature were in agreement.​

Second:

113. In February, 1940, the government promulgated land Transfers Regulations under which the country was divided into three zones.

• In the largest of these zones, all transfers of land to persons other than Palestinian Arabs were prohibited, except, where certain specific conditions obtain, with the permission of the High commissioner.
• In the second zone, Palestinian Arabs were forbidden to transfer their land except to another Palestinian Arab or with the specific approval of the High commissioner.
• No restrictions were placed upon the transfer of land in a third and smaller zone, including a considerable part of the coastal plain and all municipal areas. these Regulations gave effect to the land clauses of the 1939 White Paper. It is to be noted, however, that a similar Regulation had been drafted before that statement of policy was prepared with the object of replacing the earlier and defective legislation for the protection of cultivators.

In the final analysis, the goal of enabling both the Arabs and Jewish to share in the accomplishment of the essential interests where determined to be incompatible and impossible to achieve simultaneously. The Arabs, who could not be trusted to protect the Jewish National Home, thus a single-state solution with an Arab majority in power was untrustworthy and likely to corrupt the preservation and protection of the Jewish Culture. By the same token, the Jewish National Home, needed such autonomy and self-governance as to be able to defend itself against Arab invasion and takeover. Ultimately this set of dilemmas resulted in the adoption of the 181(II) Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...
That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

 

[montelatici]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I understand.

Rocco, we can discuss the legality (whether it was within the power of the General Assembly to do so) and morality of establishing a European colony in Palestine at the expense of the Muslims and Christians living there separately.

I was only making it clear that the Arabs owned 85% of the land in Palestine at the time of partition. This fact is stated in the report A/364, repeated in the Anglo-American Committee's Survey of Palestine and many other documents. It may be of no consequence to you, as it doesn't affect sovereignty issues, but I am sure that it was of great consequence to the Christian and Muslims that lost their land to the European Jews.

There are some that post here that believe that somehow the European Jews purchased the land that is Israel. That is clearly not the case.

(COMMENT)

Remember, you have to look at the A/364 UNSCOP Report in its entirety and not just a single aspect. Again, the A/364 UNSCOP Report was an enclosure to the recommendation and then the Resolution on the Partition Plan. That small piece of information was insufficient when it came to the total evaluation on the adoption of the Partition Plan.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco,

The subcommittee report that addressed the legality, authority etc. of the UN General Assembly to partition the land is another document prepared by a subcommittee created for that purpose. Title reproduced below. It is not directly accessible it must be downloaded as a pdf. It was reproduced probably via mimeogrpah so the quality is low but it is legible.

Distr.
UNRESTRICTED

A/AC.14/32
11 November 1947

ORIGINAL: ENGLISH

I only wanted to make the land ownership point in this case.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Hummm... You won't like the answer.

Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination IAW the Charter, but does not say to what territory that pertains.​

Why would you not use their international borders?

(COMMENT)

The UN Resolution adopted by the General Assembly on 4 December 2012 --- Resolution 67/19 --- Status of Palestine in the United Nations, is very specific:

1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;

2. Decides to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice;​

I am wondering why the Arab Palestinians did not reject this as it did all the other considerations offered of the last seven decades???

Most Respectfully,
R

That is what Abbas asked for without consulting the people. Does Abbas have the authority to unilaterally change Palestine's borders without public approval?

The most consistent complaint of the PA/PLO is that they do not represent the people.

Now off of the smoke and back to the subject of Palestine's international borders.

The general principle of law "ex injuria jus non oritur" is relevant in this context. A claim to a territorial title which originates in an illegal act is invalid. This relates to the Palestinian territories seized in 1948 as well as to those occupied in 1967.[23] Israel’s status in those territories is that of a “belligerent occupant.”

Palestinian-Israeli Conflict​

This reiterates what I and many Palestinians have been saying for years. Israel has never legally acquired any territory.

Why did Israel need to 'acquire' territory for ??

 

[RoccoR]

pbel, et al,

I'm not sure this is true.

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...

(COMMENT)

The disputed between the Arab Palestinians and the Israelis pre-dates the discovery of the gas and oil fields in the greater Levant by half a century. The Allied Powers had no idea the field were in the region and did not have the technology to reach them 50 to 70 years ago even if they knew. In 1948 though the 1990's --- it was not about the gas and oil.

The Tamar Gas Field was initially discovered in 1999, and the Leviathan Gas Field was initially discovered in 2010. The Tamar Gas Field is located in Israel's exclusive economic zone, roughly 80 km (50 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,700m (5,600 ft) deep. The Levant Gas Field is not quite as deep --- centered on location ≈ 130 km (81 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,500m (4,900 ft) deep in the Levantine basin. In 3d Quarter of 2010, Lebanon submitted to the UN its official review and survey regarding the maritime border, with the conclusion that the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory. However, current surveys indicate that the gas and oil fields extend all the way across the basin to the west --- off the coast of Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel --- including some potential for the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip).

That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

(COMMENT)

The current political conditions between Israel and the associated regional Arab States (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) will be the first to license and profit from the discoveries. The Syrians and Palestinians don't have the political stability to capitalize on the exploratory license and drilling rights. The entire Leviathan Basin holds a mean approximation of 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil and a mean approximation of 122 trillion cubic feet of recoverable gas.

In March 2012 the Tamar Gas Field partners signed a 15-year, $14 billion deal with the Israel Electric Corporation to supply it with 42 billion cubic meters of natural gas. By March 2012, the consortium developing the Tamar Gas Fields had signed deals worth up to a total of $32 billion with six Israeli companies, committing up to 133 billion cubic meters.

As long as the Palestinians continue to prolong the peace process, the more they will loss in licensing and the greater the loss to the Palestinian development programs that will help it stand alone.

But again, the Israelis nor the Allied Powers or Mandatories, knew of the gas and oil fields. I know it is popular to blame greed and profitability on the woes that befall the virtual Palestinian victims. But it is not the case. The economic loss to the Palestinians will by the fault of the Palestinian self-inflicted wound; also a right of self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Whether or not I agree with your position is unimportant.

That is what Abbas asked for without consulting the people. Does Abbas have the authority to unilaterally change Palestine's borders without public approval?

The most consistent complaint of the PA/PLO is that they do not represent the people.

Now off of the smoke and back to the subject of Palestine's international borders.

The general principle of law "ex injuria jus non oritur" is relevant in this context. A claim to a territorial title which originates in an illegal act is invalid. This relates to the Palestinian territories seized in 1948 as well as to those occupied in 1967.[23] Israel’s status in those territories is that of a “belligerent occupant.”

Palestinian-Israeli Conflict​

This reiterates what I and many Palestinians have been saying for years. Israel has never legally acquired any territory.

(COMMENT)

The 1948-1949 War of Independence, --- initiated on the day the Jewish Declared Independence on the basis of coordination with the UN, the UN Partition Plan, and the completing the UN Steps Preparatory to Independence, --- was to resolve that very dispute. And based, in part, on the military outcome of that War, the UN determined that Israel should be recognized as a member state.

As for the representation of the people; this was a decision made by the League of Arab States:

• 
  2. To affirm the right of the Palestinian people to establish an independent national authority under the command of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. This authority, once it is established, shall enjoy the support of the Arab states in all fields and at all levels;

The Palestinian must maintain the illusion that the State of Israel was established illegally; and that the resolutions representing the Partition Plan, representing a favorable Security Council recommendation, and the General Assembly approval (A/RES/181 --- S/RES/69 --- A/RES/273) where all wrong --- and only the Palestinians knew the legality of the outcome. If the Palestinians lose the the question of legality --- it removes any justification for the rebelliousness, occupation belligerence, and terrorism that the Palestinians have become known for over the last seven decades.

1. Acknowledges (A/RES/43/177) the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988;

2. Affirms the need to enable the Palestinian people to exercise their sovereignty over their territory occupied since 1967;

3. Decides that, effective as of 15 December 1988, the designation "Palestine" should be used in place of the designation "Palestine Liberation Organization" in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system, in conformity with relevant United Nations resolutions and practice;

4. Requests the Secretary-General to take the necessary action to implement the present resolution.​

It is absolutely unknown what the Palestinians think can resolve the issues they have and refuse to discuss peace terms over. But, it is not reasonable to assume that Israel will relinquish the territory it maintains as sovereign today. The Peace terms and border questions that cover the Gaza Strip and West Bank are explained in the respect peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan.

If the UN did not have any authority in the recognition of Israel, then it has no authority in the recognition of the 1988 State of Palestine.

Most Respectfully,
R

What part of all this is supposed to address my post?

 

[montelatici]

pbel, et al,

I'm not sure this is true.

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...

(COMMENT)

The disputed between the Arab Palestinians and the Israelis pre-dates the discovery of the gas and oil fields in the greater Levant by half a century. The Allied Powers had no idea the field were in the region and did not have the technology to reach them 50 to 70 years ago even if they knew. In 1948 though the 1990's --- it was not about the gas and oil.

The Tamar Gas Field was initially discovered in 1999, and the Leviathan Gas Field was initially discovered in 2010. The Tamar Gas Field is located in Israel's exclusive economic zone, roughly 80 km (50 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,700m (5,600 ft) deep. The Levant Gas Field is much deeper and centered on location ≈ 130 km (81 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,500m (4,900 ft) deep in the Levantine basin. In 3d Quarter of 2010, Lebanon submitted to the UN its official review and survey regarding the maritime border, with the conclusion that the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory. However, current surveys indicate that the gas and oil fields extend all the way across the basin to the west --- off the coast of Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel --- including some potential for the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip).

That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

(COMMENT)

The current political conditions between Israel and the associated regional Arab States (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) will be the first to license and profit from the discoveries. The Syrians and Palestinians don't have the political stability to capitalize on the exploratory license and drilling rights. The entire Leviathan Basin holds a mean approximation of 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil and a mean approximation of 122 trillion cubic feet of recoverable gas.

In March 2012 the Tamar Gas Field partners signed a 15-year, $14 billion deal with the Israel Electric Corporation to supply it with 42 billion cubic meters of natural gas. By March 2012, the consortium developing the Tamar Gas Fields had signed deals worth up to a total of $32 billion with six Israeli companies, committing up to 133 billion cubic meters.

As long as the Palestinians continue to prolong the peace process, the more they will loss in licensing and the greater loss to the Palestinian development programs that will help it stand alone.

But again, the Israelis nor the Allied Powers or Mandatories, knew of the gas and oil fields. I know it is popular to blame greed and profitability on the woes that befall the virtual Palestinian victims. But it is not the case. The economic loss to the Palestinians will by the fault of the Palestinian self-inflicted wound; also a right of self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

No Rocco, the economic loss that befell the Palestinian Christians and Muslims was as a result of the partition of Palestine by the UN. It was not self-inflicted. The "handful" of indigenous Palestinian Jews did not end up as victims. Only the non-Jews ended up as victims and lost their land and homes. Their loss was as a result of their religion, being Christian or Muslim.

 

[Roudy]

pbel, et al,

I'm not sure this is true.

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...

(COMMENT)

The disputed between the Arab Palestinians and the Israelis pre-dates the discovery of the gas and oil fields in the greater Levant by half a century. The Allied Powers had no idea the field were in the region and did not have the technology to reach them 50 to 70 years ago even if they knew. In 1948 though the 1990's --- it was not about the gas and oil.

The Tamar Gas Field was initially discovered in 1999, and the Leviathan Gas Field was initially discovered in 2010. The Tamar Gas Field is located in Israel's exclusive economic zone, roughly 80 km (50 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,700m (5,600 ft) deep. The Levant Gas Field is much deeper and centered on location ≈ 130 km (81 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,500m (4,900 ft) deep in the Levantine basin. In 3d Quarter of 2010, Lebanon submitted to the UN its official review and survey regarding the maritime border, with the conclusion that the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory. However, current surveys indicate that the gas and oil fields extend all the way across the basin to the west --- off the coast of Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel --- including some potential for the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip).

That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

(COMMENT)

The current political conditions between Israel and the associated regional Arab States (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) will be the first to license and profit from the discoveries. The Syrians and Palestinians don't have the political stability to capitalize on the exploratory license and drilling rights. The entire Leviathan Basin holds a mean approximation of 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil and a mean approximation of 122 trillion cubic feet of recoverable gas.

In March 2012 the Tamar Gas Field partners signed a 15-year, $14 billion deal with the Israel Electric Corporation to supply it with 42 billion cubic meters of natural gas. By March 2012, the consortium developing the Tamar Gas Fields had signed deals worth up to a total of $32 billion with six Israeli companies, committing up to 133 billion cubic meters.

As long as the Palestinians continue to prolong the peace process, the more they will loss in licensing and the greater loss to the Palestinian development programs that will help it stand alone.

But again, the Israelis nor the Allied Powers or Mandatories, knew of the gas and oil fields. I know it is popular to blame greed and profitability on the woes that befall the virtual Palestinian victims. But it is not the case. The economic loss to the Palestinians will by the fault of the Palestinian self-inflicted wound; also a right of self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

But you see, all of these historical facts don't really matter. The evil Jews must have had a way of knowing about those oil and gas fields, even before they were discovered.

These guys operate in the whack a mole realm of antisemitic conspiracy theories. If one doesn't stick they jump to another, and another, and another. And so it goes.

 

[Roudy]

pbel, et al,

I'm not sure this is true.

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...

(COMMENT)

The disputed between the Arab Palestinians and the Israelis pre-dates the discovery of the gas and oil fields in the greater Levant by half a century. The Allied Powers had no idea the field were in the region and did not have the technology to reach them 50 to 70 years ago even if they knew. In 1948 though the 1990's --- it was not about the gas and oil.

The Tamar Gas Field was initially discovered in 1999, and the Leviathan Gas Field was initially discovered in 2010. The Tamar Gas Field is located in Israel's exclusive economic zone, roughly 80 km (50 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,700m (5,600 ft) deep. The Levant Gas Field is much deeper and centered on location ≈ 130 km (81 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,500m (4,900 ft) deep in the Levantine basin. In 3d Quarter of 2010, Lebanon submitted to the UN its official review and survey regarding the maritime border, with the conclusion that the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory. However, current surveys indicate that the gas and oil fields extend all the way across the basin to the west --- off the coast of Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel --- including some potential for the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip).

That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

(COMMENT)

The current political conditions between Israel and the associated regional Arab States (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) will be the first to license and profit from the discoveries. The Syrians and Palestinians don't have the political stability to capitalize on the exploratory license and drilling rights. The entire Leviathan Basin holds a mean approximation of 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil and a mean approximation of 122 trillion cubic feet of recoverable gas.

In March 2012 the Tamar Gas Field partners signed a 15-year, $14 billion deal with the Israel Electric Corporation to supply it with 42 billion cubic meters of natural gas. By March 2012, the consortium developing the Tamar Gas Fields had signed deals worth up to a total of $32 billion with six Israeli companies, committing up to 133 billion cubic meters.

As long as the Palestinians continue to prolong the peace process, the more they will loss in licensing and the greater loss to the Palestinian development programs that will help it stand alone.

But again, the Israelis nor the Allied Powers or Mandatories, knew of the gas and oil fields. I know it is popular to blame greed and profitability on the woes that befall the virtual Palestinian victims. But it is not the case. The economic loss to the Palestinians will by the fault of the Palestinian self-inflicted wound; also a right of self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

No Rocco, the economic loss that befell the Palestinian Christians and Muslims was as a result of the partition of Palestine by the UN. It was not self-inflicted. The "handful" of indigenous Palestinian Jews did not end up as victims. Only the non-Jews ended up as victims and lost their land and homes. Their loss was as a result of their religion, being Christian or Muslim.

Your own document claims that the Jews were very beneficial to the economy of the region. Arab Muslims in the other hand decided to do their Nazi brethren Nazis did in nazi Germany, not too long before them, boycott Jewish goods.

Hitler s Mufti Catholic Answers

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I appreciate the clarification and understand.

It does make that point.

Rocco,

The subcommittee report that addressed the legality, authority etc. of the UN General Assembly to partition the land is another document prepared by a subcommittee created for that purpose. Title reproduced below. It is not directly accessible it must be downloaded as a pdf. It was reproduced probably via mimeogrpah so the quality is low but it is legible.

Distr.
UNRESTRICTED

A/AC.14/32
11 November 1947

ORIGINAL: ENGLISH

I only wanted to make the land ownership point in this case.

(COMMENT)

Port to .pdf Report: A/AC.14/32 11 November 1947 AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION --- REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE 2 [link to .pdf]

And it is a valid point, but not one that effects the:

• Original intention of the Allied Powers at San Remo.
• The Article 22 requirement to be able to stand alone.
• The General Assembly evaluation on the UNSCOP Partition Plan Recommendation.

Of course, there is a lot in what was not said. This particular report was an ALL Muslim report.

Composition and terms of reference of Sub-Committee

1. Sub-Committee 2 on Palestine was set up on 23 October 1947 following the decision of the Ad Hoc Committee of Palestine to establish two Sub-Committees. By virtue of the authority conferred on him by the Ad Hoc Committee, the Chairman nominated the following countries as members of Sub-Committee 2: Afghanistan, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen.​

The terms of reference of the Sub-Committee were as follows:

1. “To draw up a detailed plan for the future government of Palestine in accordance with the basic principles expressed in the proposals submitted to the General Assembly by the delegations of Saudi Arabia and Iraq (documents A/317 and A/328, respectively) and the proposal submitted to the Ad Hoc Committee by the delegation of Syria (document A/AC.14/22); and

2. To incorporate this plan in the form of recommendations.”
​

And these insights were incorporated into the UNSCOP Recommendation.

Just to be fair, the main point that this UNSCOP Report tried to convey was that:

"It will be be seen that there is not a single sub-district in which the percentage of Jewish land ownership exceeds 39 per cent, and in nine out of the sixteen sub-districts, their percentage of ownership is less than 5 percent." (Bottom of Page 43)​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

^^^^^


Another piece of Monte's propaganda just got blown to shreds, by Rocco.

Truth is, most of the estimates with regards to land and demographics were just that, estimates. There was a lot of lobbying going on by the Arab Muslims who were constantly whining about the Jews, and the British went with a lot of their lies without even checking first.

In short the reports were unreliable and didn't and couldn't take into into account the huge numbers of illegal Arabs from neighboring countries.

The reason the reports were not contested was because the creation of a Jewish homeland was never about "demographics" or "land ownership" of the Arab invaders.

 

[montelatici]

I don't think Rocco has disputed the percentage of ownership of land. And, the fact that the records demonstrate that the increase of the Arab population was virtually all natural growth, makes your contention ridiculous propaganda. Just shut up.

 

[Roudy]

We don't know how many Arabs had invaded, but number was significant. By 1947 the Arab invaders had become land owners, duh.

 

[pbel]

pbel, et al,

I'm not sure this is true.

The Partition Plan was the result of Colonialist/Imperial expression by the winners of WWll who fought for the control of the oilfields...They never had the right to impose except through political malfeasance and military power...

(COMMENT)

The disputed between the Arab Palestinians and the Israelis pre-dates the discovery of the gas and oil fields in the greater Levant by half a century. The Allied Powers had no idea the field were in the region and did not have the technology to reach them 50 to 70 years ago even if they knew. In 1948 though the 1990's --- it was not about the gas and oil.

The Tamar Gas Field was initially discovered in 1999, and the Leviathan Gas Field was initially discovered in 2010. The Tamar Gas Field is located in Israel's exclusive economic zone, roughly 80 km (50 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,700m (5,600 ft) deep. The Levant Gas Field is not quite as deep --- centered on location ≈ 130 km (81 mi) west of Haifa in waters 1,500m (4,900 ft) deep in the Levantine basin. In 3d Quarter of 2010, Lebanon submitted to the UN its official review and survey regarding the maritime border, with the conclusion that the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory. However, current surveys indicate that the gas and oil fields extend all the way across the basin to the west --- off the coast of Egypt, Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, and Israel --- including some potential for the State of Palestine (Gaza Strip).

That wrong will never be right unless the Palestinians and Arabs agree to it. That's what the Arabs see...That's why Jihadists are thriving, they want Western influence and politics to be gone.

(COMMENT)

The current political conditions between Israel and the associated regional Arab States (Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon) will be the first to license and profit from the discoveries. The Syrians and Palestinians don't have the political stability to capitalize on the exploratory license and drilling rights. The entire Leviathan Basin holds a mean approximation of 1.7 billion barrels of recoverable oil and a mean approximation of 122 trillion cubic feet of recoverable gas.

In March 2012 the Tamar Gas Field partners signed a 15-year, $14 billion deal with the Israel Electric Corporation to supply it with 42 billion cubic meters of natural gas. By March 2012, the consortium developing the Tamar Gas Fields had signed deals worth up to a total of $32 billion with six Israeli companies, committing up to 133 billion cubic meters.

As long as the Palestinians continue to prolong the peace process, the more they will loss in licensing and the greater the loss to the Palestinian development programs that will help it stand alone.

But again, the Israelis nor the Allied Powers or Mandatories, knew of the gas and oil fields. I know it is popular to blame greed and profitability on the woes that befall the virtual Palestinian victims. But it is not the case. The economic loss to the Palestinians will by the fault of the Palestinian self-inflicted wound; also a right of self-determination.

Most Respectfully,
R

As usual your words are lost in the forest:
US-Saudi mark 70 years of rocky alliance - Al-Monitor: the ...
www.al-monitor.com/.../american-saudi-arabia-alliance-anni...

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Feb 13, 2015 - Feb. 14 marks the 70th anniversary of the beginning of the US alliance with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. On Feb. 14, 1945, President Franklin ...

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I appreciate the clarification and understand.

It does make that point.

Rocco,

The subcommittee report that addressed the legality, authority etc. of the UN General Assembly to partition the land is another document prepared by a subcommittee created for that purpose. Title reproduced below. It is not directly accessible it must be downloaded as a pdf. It was reproduced probably via mimeogrpah so the quality is low but it is legible.

Distr.
UNRESTRICTED

A/AC.14/32
11 November 1947

ORIGINAL: ENGLISH

I only wanted to make the land ownership point in this case.

(COMMENT)

Port to .pdf Report: A/AC.14/32 11 November 1947 AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION --- REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE 2 [link to .pdf]

And it is a valid point, but not one that effects the:

• Original intention of the Allied Powers at San Remo.
• The Article 22 requirement to be able to stand alone.
• The General Assembly evaluation on the UNSCOP Partition Plan Recommendation.

Of course, there is a lot in what was not said. This particular report was an ALL Muslim report.

Composition and terms of reference of Sub-Committee

1. Sub-Committee 2 on Palestine was set up on 23 October 1947 following the decision of the Ad Hoc Committee of Palestine to establish two Sub-Committees. By virtue of the authority conferred on him by the Ad Hoc Committee, the Chairman nominated the following countries as members of Sub-Committee 2: Afghanistan, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen.​

The terms of reference of the Sub-Committee were as follows:

1. “To draw up a detailed plan for the future government of Palestine in accordance with the basic principles expressed in the proposals submitted to the General Assembly by the delegations of Saudi Arabia and Iraq (documents A/317 and A/328, respectively) and the proposal submitted to the Ad Hoc Committee by the delegation of Syria (document A/AC.14/22); and

2. To incorporate this plan in the form of recommendations.”
​

And these insights were incorporated into the UNSCOP Recommendation.

Just to be fair, the main point that this UNSCOP Report tried to convey was that:

"It will be be seen that there is not a single sub-district in which the percentage of Jewish land ownership exceeds 39 per cent, and in nine out of the sixteen sub-districts, their percentage of ownership is less than 5 percent." (Bottom of Page 43)​

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course this discussion is merely academic. No matter who owns it, it is still Palestinian Land.

Jews own land in the US and it is still US land.

 

[toastman]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I appreciate the clarification and understand.

It does make that point.

Rocco,

The subcommittee report that addressed the legality, authority etc. of the UN General Assembly to partition the land is another document prepared by a subcommittee created for that purpose. Title reproduced below. It is not directly accessible it must be downloaded as a pdf. It was reproduced probably via mimeogrpah so the quality is low but it is legible.

Distr.
UNRESTRICTED

A/AC.14/32
11 November 1947

ORIGINAL: ENGLISH

I only wanted to make the land ownership point in this case.

(COMMENT)

Port to .pdf Report: A/AC.14/32 11 November 1947 AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION --- REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE 2 [link to .pdf]

And it is a valid point, but not one that effects the:

• Original intention of the Allied Powers at San Remo.
• The Article 22 requirement to be able to stand alone.
• The General Assembly evaluation on the UNSCOP Partition Plan Recommendation.

Of course, there is a lot in what was not said. This particular report was an ALL Muslim report.

Composition and terms of reference of Sub-Committee

1. Sub-Committee 2 on Palestine was set up on 23 October 1947 following the decision of the Ad Hoc Committee of Palestine to establish two Sub-Committees. By virtue of the authority conferred on him by the Ad Hoc Committee, the Chairman nominated the following countries as members of Sub-Committee 2: Afghanistan, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen.​

The terms of reference of the Sub-Committee were as follows:

1. “To draw up a detailed plan for the future government of Palestine in accordance with the basic principles expressed in the proposals submitted to the General Assembly by the delegations of Saudi Arabia and Iraq (documents A/317 and A/328, respectively) and the proposal submitted to the Ad Hoc Committee by the delegation of Syria (document A/AC.14/22); and

2. To incorporate this plan in the form of recommendations.”
​

And these insights were incorporated into the UNSCOP Recommendation.

Just to be fair, the main point that this UNSCOP Report tried to convey was that:

"It will be be seen that there is not a single sub-district in which the percentage of Jewish land ownership exceeds 39 per cent, and in nine out of the sixteen sub-districts, their percentage of ownership is less than 5 percent." (Bottom of Page 43)​

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course this discussion is merely academic. No matter who owns it, it is still Palestinian Land.

Jews own land in the US and it is still US land.

Which specific land are you talking about ?

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

Yes, I appreciate the clarification and understand.

It does make that point.

Rocco,

The subcommittee report that addressed the legality, authority etc. of the UN General Assembly to partition the land is another document prepared by a subcommittee created for that purpose. Title reproduced below. It is not directly accessible it must be downloaded as a pdf. It was reproduced probably via mimeogrpah so the quality is low but it is legible.

Distr.
UNRESTRICTED

A/AC.14/32
11 November 1947

ORIGINAL: ENGLISH

I only wanted to make the land ownership point in this case.

(COMMENT)

Port to .pdf Report: A/AC.14/32 11 November 1947 AD HOC COMMITTEE ON THE PALESTINIAN QUESTION --- REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE 2 [link to .pdf]

And it is a valid point, but not one that effects the:

• Original intention of the Allied Powers at San Remo.
• The Article 22 requirement to be able to stand alone.
• The General Assembly evaluation on the UNSCOP Partition Plan Recommendation.

Of course, there is a lot in what was not said. This particular report was an ALL Muslim report.

Composition and terms of reference of Sub-Committee

1. Sub-Committee 2 on Palestine was set up on 23 October 1947 following the decision of the Ad Hoc Committee of Palestine to establish two Sub-Committees. By virtue of the authority conferred on him by the Ad Hoc Committee, the Chairman nominated the following countries as members of Sub-Committee 2: Afghanistan, Colombia, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Yemen.​

The terms of reference of the Sub-Committee were as follows:

1. “To draw up a detailed plan for the future government of Palestine in accordance with the basic principles expressed in the proposals submitted to the General Assembly by the delegations of Saudi Arabia and Iraq (documents A/317 and A/328, respectively) and the proposal submitted to the Ad Hoc Committee by the delegation of Syria (document A/AC.14/22); and

2. To incorporate this plan in the form of recommendations.”
​

And these insights were incorporated into the UNSCOP Recommendation.

Just to be fair, the main point that this UNSCOP Report tried to convey was that:

"It will be be seen that there is not a single sub-district in which the percentage of Jewish land ownership exceeds 39 per cent, and in nine out of the sixteen sub-districts, their percentage of ownership is less than 5 percent." (Bottom of Page 43)​

Most Respectfully,
R

Of course this discussion is merely academic. No matter who owns it, it is still Palestinian Land.

Jews own land in the US and it is still US land.

Which specific land are you talking about ?

What does it matter?