Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[bigrebnc1775]

Ahh, I see.

I'm pointing out the fact that taxpayer money is being wasted on an investigation where even the lead investigator admits that he has no evidence of wrongdoing or even a strong suspicion of wrongdoing by the people being investigated...

And I'm the partisan.

That Bizarro planet you live on a nice place?

Face the facts your president might be very corrupted and his gun running program might have been something other than finding bad guys with guns.

OBAMA is in Deep Doo-doo---so is Holder.

LWC can't handle that fact regardless of his poltical bias.

But what he doesn't understand is that MOST OF US expect this out of the Congress with oversight regardless of PARTY of the Temporary OCCUPANT of 1600 Penn Ave.

More's the pity for him.

yep

 

[Vast LWC]

Perhaps you missed the part that the agent himself admitted they KNEW illegal activities were occurring and the FAILED TO ACT on that knowledge?

And perhaps your sources overlooked the indictments that HAVE occurred but only after Brian Terry was murdered. Of course you are increasingly avoiding revealing your sources aren't you.

By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila's name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth's agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry's death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

So... you're saying Fast and Furious was a partial success, once the prosecutor's office started to indict the people involved on a lesser charge?

How does this support your argument exactly?

 

[Foxfyre]

Perhaps you missed the part that the agent himself admitted they KNEW illegal activities were occurring and the FAILED TO ACT on that knowledge?

And perhaps your sources overlooked the indictments that HAVE occurred but only after Brian Terry was murdered. Of course you are increasingly avoiding revealing your sources aren't you.

By the end of July 2010, the Fast and Furious investigation was largely complete. The agents had sent prosecutors 20 names for immediate indictment, Jaime Avila's among them. His purchase of the three WASR-10s were listed among his criminal acts. On Aug. 17, 2010, ATF agents met in Phoenix with prosecutors, including U.S. Attorney Dennis Burke. According to two people present, the ATF presented detailed evidence, including the fact that their suspects had purchased almost 2,000 guns, and pushed for indictments. A month later, on Sept. 17, an ATF team—this time including ATF director Kenneth Melson—met with prosecutors again and again pushed for action. The sides agreed to aim for indictments by October, according to one person in attendance.

But as weeks and then months passed, prosecutors did not issue indictments. The ATF agents grew increasingly concerned. By December, prosecutors had dropped Avila's name from the indictment list for what they deemed a lack of evidence.

Only when Terry, the U.S. Border Patrol agent, was murdered in December 2010 did the prosecutors act. Voth's agents arrested Avila within 24 hours of Terry's death. On Jan. 19, 2011, a federal grand jury indicted him and 19 other suspects. (Avila has since pleaded guilty to dealing guns without a license).
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features

So... you're saying Fast and Furious was a partial success, once the prosecutor's office started to indict the people involved on a lesser charge?

How does this support your argument exactly?

My argument all along has been the duty of Congress to exercise its constitutionally mandated responsibility to exercise proper oversight of all departments of government that it passes laws to create and allocates funding for, and that includes holding accountable those responsible whether the results were exemplary or questionable or disastrous.

Your argument all along is that Congress should only exercise its duty if there is PROOF of wrong doing and, because you maintained there was no evidence of any wrong doing in Fast and Furious, the GOP is therefore only asking for a special prosecutor and conductring hearings out of scurilous political motivations.

While I think you're toally and completely all wet in your opinion about that, I nevertheless provided you the evidence that there was proof of wrong doing.

Okay?

 

[paulitician]

Fast and furious may in fact be one of those screwy things government does that was well intended but went very wrong. We have so many such events in our history to point to: A number of ill advised WWII missions, The Bay of Pigs, the escalation of the Vietnam War, the attempted rescue of the American embassy people in Iran, the Iran Contra stuff, George H.W. Bush's backing off his 'no new taxes' pledge, the Clinton impeachment, the invasion of Iraq, the events leading up to the housing bubble collapse, and now, in all likelihood, Fast & Furious.

It is not a matter of condemning or hanging somebody for a well intended project that goes very wrong or turns out to be a really bad idea.

It IS a matter of full disclosure on what happened, why it went wrong if it did, and how do we avoid making that mistake again? When our government provides full disclosure, yes heads may roll and careers may end in disgrace. Such is life in the free world both in government and in the private sector.

But full disclosure is nevertheless necessary in order for us to have a Democratic Republic and a free people. No matter who they are and no matter what party they represent, if the Attorney General or anybody else is allowed to cover his and/or the President's butt with impunity, we are all screwed.

Well said. Thanks.

 

[GuyPinestra]

I highlighted Powers of Congress over DOJ and thier RIGHT on behalf of the taxpayer. Holder and Obama Failed and behind the false curtain of EP.

Son? YOU LOSE.

I'm sorry, what?

Of course Congress has the right to investigate whatever they want.

The question is, should they be wasting taxpayer resources holding massive investigations into operations where there is no indication of any wrongdoing?

And the answer is clearly no.

But they are. For political gain. And that is Bullshit.

What the FUCK?!?!? Did you just type that shit with a straight face??How the fuck can you say in the same breath that over 2400 weapons walked across the border and "there is no indication of any wrongdoing".

Go piss on somebody else's leg, I ain't buying your bullshit...

 

[bobgnote]

F&F can be easily explained, by zombie-media.

The President is a zombie, who tries to eat pub-brains and copy pub-moves, on the dancefloor, but the President should know better than THAT, since zombies can't dance for shit, and the President is black Obamney, who can also play better hoop, than can white Obamney.

Like Obamneycare, F&F is copied, from similar ops, under pub-administrations, but F&F is inbred, from the same media, which leads to mad cow disease; cows shouldn't eat food products, from their own species, and since pub-zombies are also zombies, black Obamney is just eating himself up.

But black Obamney only knows his followers are zombies, who don't give a rat's ass, how black Obamney is imitating shit, which should not be imitated, while trying to eat shit-for-brains pub media. Black Obamney is very stubborn, and his cult is retarded.

Tell me. Does a redstate-pub-zombie look like a happy-meal, to YOU? You might be a rat-zombie, like black Obamney. Rats, don't be nibbling, on this:

Rats, this is what you do, to a goddamn zombie, who is trying to eat YOUR brain:

Too bad you rats don't have a streak of independent, in any two of you. The rats who participate in US politics aren't as smart, as the little fellas, in labs, or at the wharf, or from Norway or someplace.

 

[Vast LWC]

What the FUCK?!?!? Did you just type that shit with a straight face??How the fuck can you say in the same breath that over 2400 weapons walked across the border and "there is no indication of any wrongdoing".

Go piss on somebody else's leg, I ain't buying your bullshit...

Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread.

Tens of thousands of weapons already walk across the border.

The guns involved would have crossed the border whether the ATF was involved or not.

And that's because gun sale laws in Arizona are so ridiculously non-existent that a single person was found to have purchased 600 guns in a single day.

The ATF didn't send them across the border, they simply monitored the gun shops where they were being sold, with the intention of making a sting once they gathered enough evidence.

The only thing that seemed to have gone wrong with the operation, in fact, was that the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence to charge the people involved, as per the existing gun laws.

In the end, when the prosecutors finally gave the ATF the go-ahead, they had to arrest the straw-buyers on lesser charges, like selling guns without a license, which is a bulshit charge, and they probably got off with hardly any time served.

 

[The Infidel]

What the FUCK?!?!? Did you just type that shit with a straight face??How the fuck can you say in the same breath that over 2400 weapons walked across the border and "there is no indication of any wrongdoing".

Go piss on somebody else's leg, I ain't buying your bullshit...

Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread.

Tens of thousands of weapons already walk across the border.

The guns involved would have crossed the border whether the ATF was involved or not.

So why have seatbelt laws??? Thousands will die anyway.... you are a dumbass!!


And that's because gun sale laws in Arizona are so ridiculously non-existent that a single person was found to have purchased 600 guns in a single day.

So you admit it was because of soft gun laws???

I thought you fuckers said that was not part of the reason Obama's regime was breaking the law.... you lying FUCKS!!!!

The ATF didn't send them across the border, they simply monitored the gun shops where they were being sold, with the intention of making a sting once they gathered enough evidence.

The guns were not traced.... you dumb FUCKS!!!


The only thing that seemed to have gone wrong with the operation, in fact, was that the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence to charge the people involved, as per the existing gun laws.

So again...you admit it was because of soft gun laws???


In the end, when the prosecutors finally gave the ATF the go-ahead, they had to arrest the straw-buyers on lesser charges, like selling guns without a license, which is a bulshit charge, and they probably got off with hardly any time served.

Fuck you liars... fuck all of you!

 

[Vast LWC]

Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread.

Tens of thousands of weapons already walk across the border.

The guns involved would have crossed the border whether the ATF was involved or not.

So why have seatbelt laws??? Thousands will die anyway.... you are a dumbass!!


And that's because gun sale laws in Arizona are so ridiculously non-existent that a single person was found to have purchased 600 guns in a single day.

So you admit it was because of soft gun laws???

I thought you fuckers said that was not part of the reason Obama's regime was breaking the law.... you lying FUCKS!!!!

The ATF didn't send them across the border, they simply monitored the gun shops where they were being sold, with the intention of making a sting once they gathered enough evidence.

The guns were not traced.... you dumb FUCKS!!!


The only thing that seemed to have gone wrong with the operation, in fact, was that the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence to charge the people involved, as per the existing gun laws.

So again...you admit it was because of soft gun laws???


In the end, when the prosecutors finally gave the ATF the go-ahead, they had to arrest the straw-buyers on lesser charges, like selling guns without a license, which is a bulshit charge, and they probably got off with hardly any time served.

Fuck you liars... fuck all of you!

This response makes no sense.

1. Since each state has individual gun laws, the gun laws in question would be Arizona gun laws, not federal gun laws.

2. I never said anything about this not having to do with soft gun laws, you must be thinking of someone else.

and

3. Seriously, what's with all the hostility?

 

[logical4u]

HOLDER and OBAMA HAD time to prove it. They didn't.

Too late.

Albatross hangs heavy and hard around Obama's NECK.

And YES Americans care that Agents DIE for no reason as well as Mexican Brothers ans sisters in the HUMAN community.

Apparently, you lack apprehension of the most basic tenet of the American legal system.

The accused is innocent until proven guilty.

Tell that to George Zimmerman, or should I say, tell that to the black panthers that have a bounty on his head, while the justice dept. looks the other way.

 

[logical4u]

And Holder WAS. He didn't comply with LEGAL Congressional subpoena.

Keep up with the circular logic will you?

Congress has better things to do than prosecute BASEBALL PLAYERS since Congress doesn't fund them like they do DOJ Asswipe.

Now that is a funny post.

You're accusing ME of circular logic, by saying you know Holder is guilty because he has given you no evidence of his guilt.

Because THAT's not "Circular logic", right?

What's up? Did you just learn that term, and you're trying it out for the first time?

If you get a supeona, and you ignore it, procrastinate, tell the investigative comittee that you don't "think" they need the requested info, you will go to jail. Holder did just that. He ignored the supeona/he procrastinated by implying that he intended to comply/and then he told the investigative comittee that he didn't believe they needed the requested documents (and what he gave them should be sufficient). If you or I did that, we would be in jail.

 

[logical4u]

Just in case you overlooked this, folks.

Think progress? Soros? Really?

SPARE US

translation: T cannot refute or disprove the information contained in the link (no less the quote provided), so like the dishonest intellectual coward that he is, T just bluffs and blusters ad nauseum.

Ahh, the willfully ignorant and proud neocon/teabagger flunkie that is "T"....prime meat for Rove, Norquist and the like. Carry on.

More like why bother, those people are not interested in truth, just in getting the zombies directed away from them. They thank you!

 

[Vast LWC]

If you get a supeona, and you ignore it, procrastinate, tell the investigative comittee that you don't "think" they need the requested info, you will go to jail. Holder did just that. He ignored the supeona/he procrastinated by implying that he intended to comply/and then he told the investigative comittee that he didn't believe they needed the requested documents (and what he gave them should be sufficient). If you or I did that, we would be in jail.

But you see, I wouldn't get a subpoena in the first place, since this case would never have gone to court.

There is no reasonable suspicion of criminal activity in the first place for a court case to be brought against the ATF and the DoJ.

Nor is there causation in evidence for a civil case to be brought by the slain border patrol agent, which was part of Congresses justification.

The point I am making is that the entire preceding is not justified to begin with. So the subpoena is completely besides the point.

 

[Vast LWC]

In other words:

You're out of order, he's out of order, this entire preceding is out of order!

 

[Uncensored2008]

Who says?

The Supreme Court.

I mean not to be combative but really, who says? Its my understanding that executive priviledge has never been clearly defined and while traditionally it has been used in only the way youre describing, theres no set of rules as to how it can be applied. If that be the case, then could executive priviledge then be applied not to the President himself, but to the entire executive branch?

You're wrong, it was challenged when Bush invoked on the Plame affair, with the ruling that unless the president is directly involved, EP does not apply.

That question being asked, I hope that theres a battle over this use of executive priviledge and Obama loses. I support Obamas re-election, but to use EP in this way, in my opinion, sets a very dangerous precedent. A precedent that cannot be allowed to stand.

The battle was already fought and lost. Obama simply is above the law that governs commoners and Republicans, so he ignores such things. However, the congress is challenging whether Dear Leader is in fact immune to all law.

Boehner: Republicans to Challenge Obama’s Executive Privilege in Civil Court - ABC News

 

[Uncensored2008]

Dumb redneck.
Guns purchased legally are never dangerous.
I know because the NRA tells me so.

So it's a birth defect then?

You were born with no brain?

 

[Uncensored2008]

The NRA is full of shit. ALL guns are dangerous and must be treated with respect.

The NRA never said guns aren't dangerous. IDB is a leftist, ergo a shameless liar without a hint of integrity.

I proudly own more guns than all of you combined. And fuck the NRA! I see the morons who cant figure out how to get toothpaste on a toothbrush with their NRA stickers on their trucks and it makes me sick.

That's surprising, the stupidest people in America have Obama stickers on their Prius and Escalades.

You know, the universal symbol of stupidity:

And Charlton Heston holding up a musket and crying out,"From my cold dead hands!"???? Yeah, Chuck? Ive got a semi automatic machine pistol that says I can get it out of hands before they go cold, dumbass...oh wait...hes already dead. Guess Ill have to prove it on someone else...

Who wants to hold the musket?

I do, they're fun to shoot and a real challenge.

PS. if it is semi-auto, it is by definition NOT a "machine pistol."

PPS. the "guns" you have in Modern Warfare don't count.

 

[paulitician]

Obama & Holder's weapons are still in the hands of brutal drug gangs. More will be slaughtered. Shame on the Democrat Bootlickers.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Obama & Holder's weapons are still in the hands of brutal drug gangs. More will be slaughtered. Shame on the Democrat Bootlickers.

Call them what they are terrorists

 

[Dr.Drock]

But...bigrednec...guns don't kill people................

So guns kill people in your mind, but you still have unwavering love and support for an administration that enacted a policy to give automatic guns to terrorists who have a motivation to kill americans?

Any stance that puts the democrat party above the United States and her citizens I guess.

Was that a question?
I have an unwavering love for what?

Don't you think the gun lobby has a lot of responsibility for the amount of weapons heading to Mexico?
Mexicans have been legally purchasing guns for years in the US because it's so easy.

You'll have to let me know which american gun shop sells all these automatic weapons to these terrorists.

You'll also have to let me know what has led your mind to the crazy conclusion that making guns illegal will keep them out of the hands of terrorists, which if you support this administration, is something you don't have a problem with anyways. (see F and F, and arming terrorists in Libya)