Elizabeth Warren: 'End Electoral College'

[AzogtheDefiler]

I think voters who voted in Tlaib and Omar and AOC are idiots. May I vote against them?

Which of those states do you love in?

Didn't you just said HERE that states don't matter?

States SHOULDN'T matter. But they do. And it's skewed in how much they each matter.

Your posts are annoying and bring nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you need to get a life. States do matter. We are the UNITED STATES!

Clearly you're upset that I exposed your retarded viewpoint earlier, but for you to keep following me around is weird.

But whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

LMAO? What? You have serious mental issues. And you're a traitor.

 

[RDD_1210]

Which of those states do you love in?

Didn't you just said HERE that states don't matter?

States SHOULDN'T matter. But they do. And it's skewed in how much they each matter.

Your posts are annoying and bring nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you need to get a life. States do matter. We are the UNITED STATES!

Clearly you're upset that I exposed your retarded viewpoint earlier, but for you to keep following me around is weird.

But whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

LMAO? What? You have serious mental issues. And you're a traitor.

Ok great. You done now? Or do you want to get anything else off your chest?

I come to this site for the entertainment value from the inbreds. I'm flattered one of them has taken a liking to me.

 

[Pogo]

I agree. I always thought america was a democracy...but when Bush Jr got elected we the citizens of the world were shocked. And that's when we found about the electoral college. It really gives the power to the crazy minority and that's why we have trump and his crazies....the US should join the democratic countries and abolish the EC.

Interesting concept...you want the US...with one of the longest standing democracies in world history to change the system that's given us that stability to mirror the rest of the world that sees coups and civil unrest as a matter of course? I'm guessing you don't have the faintest idea WHY the Electoral College was instituted in the first place...do you, Issa?

The US is not a democracy.

The US is a democracy...we choose to operate that democracy as a constitutional republic...which is a blend of power derived from democratic processes...power held by elected officials...and power held by a court system.

My point remains...do you really think the US should scrap a system that has worked for hundreds of years simply because the candidate you wanted didn't get elected in a Presidential race?

"A system that has worked"? Sorry, thought we were talking about the EC here.

"Worked" by immediately disenfranchising up to half, or in myriad cases more than half, of a state's voters, thereby depressing voter turnout because "fuck it, what's the point"?

"Worked" by perpetuating the Duopoly, shutting out any third party and producing a never-ending torrent of Bad vs Worse, requiring the electorate to vote not FOR one but AGAINST the other?

"Worked" by setting up a system where the only way for a third party to compete is to siphon off enough votes to deny any one a majority thereby tossing the whole election into the House, thus nullifying the entire election process itself?

"Worked" by rendering the act of going to vote completely pointless in any so-called "red" or "blue" state?

"Worked" by making any state that isn't dedicated "red" or "blue" dependent on polls to find out whether it's worth getting out of bed on election day?

"Worked" by ensuring that no candidate will ever bother appearing in those so-called "red"/"blue" states because either they, or their opponent, has it in the bag, making that state a predetermined outcome?

"Worked" by outliving all of its reasons for existence since there is no more "Slave Power", communication is far more wide-reaching than it was in 1780, and states have already passed actual laws dictating how their electors shall vote, taking the conscience element out? What's left?

"Worked" by creating artificial concepts of "red states" and "blue states" thereby pitting states and people AGAINST each other? What could possibly go wrong with that idea.

If that's "working", it's time to break something.

 

[August West]

Without the EC the Republicans in NJ and the Democrats in Tennessee will have a reason to vote. As it is now why should they bother?

 

[Pogo]

I agree. I always thought america was a democracy...but when Bush Jr got elected we the citizens of the world were shocked. And that's when we found about the electoral college. It really gives the power to the crazy minority and that's why we have trump and his crazies....the US should join the democratic countries and abolish the EC.

That is your mistake because UNITED States of America has never been a Democracy and the President has been elected with the Electoral College all this time.

Funny how no one complained when Clinton and Obama won it twice but when Gore and Hillary lost all of a sudden it is a bad system.

No matter what my opinion of Trump the fact is the Electoral College is a great system that allow the smaller states in our REPUBLIC to have a voice...

They point being dumbass...that Clinton and Obama won BOTH the popular vote and the electoral vote.

Bush the Lesser and Trump both LOST the popular vote...negating the will of the people.

"No matter what my opinion of Trump the fact is the Electoral College is a great system that allow the smaller states in our REPUBLIC to have a voice"

The fact is the EC is a FLAWED system that allowed smaller states an OUTSIZED voice in our NATION'S Presidential election and Supreme Court as a result

No, that's not true.

If you add NY and Cali together, they had (in the 2016 election) 84 electoral votes.

https://state.1keydata.com/state-electoral-votes.php

The lowest 9 populated states collectively had 28 electoral votes.

So how do you feel these lower populated states are overpowering the most populated states? Do you know how many lower populated states it would take to equal just NY and Cali yet alone overpower them? I don't have time right now to do all the math, but here is a list of states according to population, and combine that with the electoral votes those states get with the link above. If you have the time to add all this up, let me know how many of the lower populated states it takes to equal the two most populated. Edit: I count 19. To exceed their combined EC votes by just one, I count 20 states.

List of states and territories of the United States by population - Wikipedia

I'd say states have a s

I agree. I always thought america was a democracy...but when Bush Jr got elected we the citizens of the world were shocked. And that's when we found about the electoral college. It really gives the power to the crazy minority and that's why we have trump and his crazies....the US should join the democratic countries and abolish the EC.

Interesting concept...you want the US...with one of the longest standing democracies in world history to change the system that's given us that stability to mirror the rest of the world that sees coups and civil unrest as a matter of course? I'm guessing you don't have the faintest idea WHY the Electoral College was instituted in the first place...do you, Issa?

The US is not a democracy.

The US is a democracy...we choose to operate that democracy as a constitutional republic...which is a blend of power derived from democratic processes...power held by elected officials...and power held by a court system.

My point remains...do you really think the US should scrap a system that has worked for hundreds of years simply because the candidate you wanted didn't get elected in a Presidential race?

Worked likes shit, with the likes of Bush and trump two crazies voted in by the dumbest minority.

It was "dumb" to prefer Trump over Hillary Clinton? I hate to point out the obvious here, Issa but the left ran an odious candidate who managed to be corrupt, incompetent and seemed to feel entitled to the Oval Office simply because she was a woman.

As opposed to a candidate who manages to be corrupt, incompetent AND an asshole, who seems to feel entitled to the Oval Orifice simply because he's an elitist schmuck who's been handed everything all his life while taking zero responsibility for anything....

The shorter answer here is ---- "FUCK yeah." Although "dumb" hardly covers it. "Treasonous" and "irresponsible" come closer. And a point of correction anyway ---- the voters didn't prefer Rump; they got stuck with him. Check the numbers.

Fun fact: Remember Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan, those "swing" states that went "red" and sent 100% of their EVs to Rump? In NONE of them could Rump even get 50% of the state's vote. Same thing in my state.

Trump wasn't elected because voters were dumb...he was elected because he was a better candidate than the other person on the ballot!

Cultspeak. Reminds me of a writer in the Philadelphia Inquirer who was taken to task for being too soft on an incompetent mayoral candidate, Wilson Goode, in his contest against the remarkably Rumpian knuckledragger Frank Rizzo. He wrote,'

"Just to be clear, Wilson Goode is terrible. He's a disaster. He's so bad, only Frank Rizzo could make you vote for him".

Swap the names and you have your daily dose of Reality.

 

[Papageorgio]

Republicans only seem able to win when they can manipulate the EC. The "will of the people" be damned

Oh...

Time for reform

How was the EC manipulated?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Didn't you just said HERE that states don't matter?

States SHOULDN'T matter. But they do. And it's skewed in how much they each matter.

Your posts are annoying and bring nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you need to get a life. States do matter. We are the UNITED STATES!

Clearly you're upset that I exposed your retarded viewpoint earlier, but for you to keep following me around is weird.

But whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

LMAO? What? You have serious mental issues. And you're a traitor.

Ok great. You done now? Or do you want to get anything else off your chest?

I come to this site for the entertainment value from the inbreds. I'm flattered one of them has taken a liking to me.

Nice try to deflect. I am clearly renting space in your empty head. Traitor.

 

[Papageorgio]

Without the EC the Republicans in NJ and the Democrats in Tennessee will have a reason to vote. As it is now why should they bother?

I live in a solid blue state and I vote third party, my voice still counts and I have every reason to vote. If you are not that patriotic and don't want to exercise your right to vote, that's on you. Also state and local elections also matter not just national elections.

 

[RDD_1210]

States SHOULDN'T matter. But they do. And it's skewed in how much they each matter.

Your posts are annoying and bring nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you need to get a life. States do matter. We are the UNITED STATES!

Clearly you're upset that I exposed your retarded viewpoint earlier, but for you to keep following me around is weird.

But whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

LMAO? What? You have serious mental issues. And you're a traitor.

Ok great. You done now? Or do you want to get anything else off your chest?

I come to this site for the entertainment value from the inbreds. I'm flattered one of them has taken a liking to me.

Nice try to deflect. I am clearly renting space in your empty head. Traitor.

Since you are renting space in my head, from now on I will ask that you refer to me as "Landlord" and I shall refer to you as "Tenant".

 

[Pogo]

What “safeguard” would be stripped away? Explain

The power distribution imbalance of the EC was intentional. It was a compromise to convince less populated, rural states to join the union. It gives them some protection against being ignored by the federal government. If, as happened in 2016, the rural areas feel dismissed by the urban "elites" - the EC gives them a little extra power to push back.

I understand why the Democrats want to end the EC. They were spanked by it. But they were spanked for good reason. They were dismissing, disrespecting and arguably attacking the lives of rural voters. Despite my disgust with Trump, the EC worked as designed. It's an important safeguard, regardless of the party in power.

If Hillary won the presidency and Trump won the popular vote, they wouldn't' even be having this discussion.

BULL SHIT.

Number one that election was over two years ago and number two it LOOOOOOOOONG predates that election anyway. Two hundred years.

Why is it y'all keep leaning on this crutch of trying to make it about political parties and a specific election?

What you have there is a speculation fallacy, and an easily debunked one.

As far as the left is concerned, all their issues or concerns that are stopped by the Constitution is because (in their opinion) the Constitution is outdated and not applicable for modern times. Therefore it should be changed at the will of liberals and not the amendment process that our founders created for such changes.

The Founders *WERE* Liberals. Liberalism is the whole POINT of the Constitution.

Moreover you just conflated "Liberals" with "the left". PICK one.

OH look, more silly word games

The Founders" were Liberals? Sooooooooooooooooooooo since "Liberals" recognized that our "Rights" inalienable and a gift from God......and since "Liberals" ensconced our "Rights" to gun ownership.... and our "Right" to practice or not our Religion….and the "Right" to free speech.....the "Right" to privacy and so on why are TODAY'S "Liberals" working so hard to take it all away and change the rules.

You should have seen this coming kid, you're just another elf inflated kid trying to pretend to be "smart" on the internet.

It REALLY is not my job to educate you illiterates on the homework you should have done for yourself.

>> Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty and equality.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support civil rights, democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, and free markets.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10]

Liberalism became a distinct movement in the Age of Enlightenment, when it became popular among Western philosophers and economists. Liberalism sought to replace the norms of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, the divine right of kings and traditional conservatism with representative democracy and the rule of law. Liberals also ended mercantilist policies, royal monopolies and other barriers to trade, instead promoting free markets.[11] Philosopher John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct tradition, arguing that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property,[12] adding that governments must not violate these rights based on the social contract. While the British liberal tradition has emphasised expanding democracy, French liberalism has emphasised rejecting authoritarianism and is linked to nation-building.[13]

Leaders in the Glorious Revolution of 1688,[14] the American Revolution of 1776 and the French Revolution of 1789 used liberal philosophy to justify the armed overthrow of royal tyranny. Liberalism started to spread rapidly especially after the French Revolution. The 19th century saw liberal governments established in nations across Europe and South America, whereas it was well-established alongside republicanism in the United States.[15] << (Wiki)​

You were that kid in school who didn't bother to do his reading and then wants to siphon off my work because I did. Get off your ass and go get a history book.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Republicans only seem able to win when they can manipulate the EC. The "will of the people" be damned
Oh..
Time for reform

How was the EC manipulated?

I don't expect a coherent answer.

 

[Papageorgio]

Republicans only seem able to win when they can manipulate the EC. The "will of the people" be damned
Oh..
Time for reform

How was the EC manipulated?

I don't expect a coherent answer.

I never do. He will have some irrelevant answer based on some kind of dopey conspiracy theory.

 

[Pogo]

Without the EC the Republicans in NJ and the Democrats in Tennessee will have a reason to vote. As it is now why should they bother?

Ah yes, they NEVER answer that one. Because they can't. What they'll do in typical dishonest response is go "b-but but Hillary", "b-but but Democrats", "b-but but 2016" and "b-but but I choose not to remember any criticism of the EC that doesn't involve the above three crutches".and then bravely run away leaving the question unaddressed.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Your posts are annoying and bring nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you need to get a life. States do matter. We are the UNITED STATES!

Clearly you're upset that I exposed your retarded viewpoint earlier, but for you to keep following me around is weird.

But whatever floats your boat sweet cheeks.

LMAO? What? You have serious mental issues. And you're a traitor.

Ok great. You done now? Or do you want to get anything else off your chest?

I come to this site for the entertainment value from the inbreds. I'm flattered one of them has taken a liking to me.

Nice try to deflect. I am clearly renting space in your empty head. Traitor.

Since you are renting space in my head, from now on I will ask that you refer to me as "Landlord" and I shall refer to you as "Tenant".

Still here? Want some more abuse?

 

[Pogo]

Without the EC the Republicans in NJ and the Democrats in Tennessee will have a reason to vote. As it is now why should they bother?

I live in a solid blue state and I vote third party, my voice still counts and I have every reason to vote. If you are not that patriotic and don't want to exercise your right to vote, that's on you. Also state and local elections also matter not just national elections.

I've done that before and it's unsatisfying but more to the point your 3P vote had no meaning at all. Your state took your vote, laughed in your face and said "bwahaha thanks for playin' that's going right in the trash can" and waddled off to Washington to lie through its Electoral teeth "wow, it's amazing, for the umpteenth time in a row EVERYBODY in (your state here) voted for the same candidate". My state did the same thing.

And that's a MAJOR part of the problem. First, scores of voters in your state stayed home because as you noted the outcome was predetermined, so what's the point. And second, the only way your 3P candy (or any 3P candy) was ever going to win the office was by siphoning off enough D and R votes nationally that nobody gets a majority which then tosses the entire decision into the House of Reps, thereby nullifying 100 million-plus votes and starting over. And that wasn't going to happen with input from a "blue" or "red" state anyway.

You voted for your conscience but that's all it amounts to. You could have stayed home and learned useful phrases in Turkish and it would have been more productive. So no, your vote DIDN'T count. Thank the system for that. And while you're at it thank those of us who take the initiative to figure these things out and say they ARE a problem.

 

[Pogo]

As the OP states: "Trump is the fifth United States president to have taken office without winning the national popular vote."

Here are the FIVE presidents who did not win the national popular vote:

• John Quincy Adams
• Rutherford B. Hayes
• Benjamin Harrison
• George W. Bush
• Donald Trump

United States presidential elections in which the winner lost the popular vote - Wikipedia

5 out of 44....

scary

Winning popular vote means having half of votes plus one. Right?

If so, we could add few more to that list.

Already did. There's a huge gap above between Dubya and Harrison, which we can fill in with Clinton (twice), Nixon, Kennedy, Truman, Wilson (twice), Lincoln, Buchanan, Pierce, Taylor and Polk. The five listed above are those who were beaten in the PV by another candidate. Two of them got into office without the Electoral College.

 

[Thinker101]

Great, how about starting with states that have all electoral votes going to a single candidate.

Agreed, it should be divided up based upon the population and how they vote. Not a winner take all.

Just as soon as California agrees not to count the MILLIONS of illegals as their population.

Illegals can't vote.

And Heroin is illegal...but people still buy it and illegals still seem to influence our elections.

No, they don't. You have zero proof of that.

Yep, and you have zero proof they don't....except all the politicians that pander to them. Dumbass.

 

[my2¢]

If the State declares they're going to select electors based on the national popular vote, but the state's voters had voted for the other candidate, how are they not losing their voting rights and being disenfranchised?

As far as federal laws go, the Voting Rights Bill of 1965 was passed to eliminate discriminatory provisions that kept blacks from voting. Constitutional amendments have dealt with extending the voting franchise to specific groups. In 19th amendment gave the franchise to women, the 26th does not permit states to deny the vote because of age to anyone that's at least 18.

 

[Pogo]

Why should a vote in Montana be worth more than a vote in Pennsylvania?

The nations elections should not be decided by America's urban centres, run by party hacks.

In other words, our elections should not be decided by voters. Just say it man! "Party hacks", whatever the hell that`s supposed to be should have just as much say in who wins an election as the toothless redneck who cooks meth in his trailer in West Virginia.

A State's Electoral Votes depend on POPULATION. More people, more EC Votes. The candidate that wins the POPULAR VOTE in that State gets the Electoral Votes. So your vote matters in each state to assign the Electoral Votes. That is the system our Republic chose to elect Presidents as the STATES ELECT PRESIDENTS, not People.

Actually no that's NOT the system our Republic [sic] chose. NOWHERE does the Constitution require a state to cast ALL its votes for one candidate. That started later and snowballed out of a mob mentality. James Madison, chief architect of the Electoral College, could see it coming in his lifetime and proposed to ban that practice. And he was right --- witness the clusterfuck we have inherited.

 

[Pogo]

It was set up for a number of reasons. One being that the voter couldn't be trusted. They were trying to prevent a demagogue like Trump from getting elected thinking that the Electors could over ride something that stupid.

Clearly that thinking was flawed. The other reason was to entice rural SLAVE states to join the Union. They also granted House Representation based on how many slaves a state had (the 3/5ths rule).Clearly updating of botch are not out of bounds

What Americano is describing is actually a situation where "least populated states" are granted an outsized amount of power, since they have determined two of the last three Presidents accounting for FOUR (out of only nine) Supreme Court Justice seats as well.

So there's that. Republicans want to counter "the tyranny of the majority" with the "tyranny of the MINORITY"

And that first point has also, like "Slave Power", been rendered moot by state laws REQUIRING their electors to vote in a prescribed ballot ---- which completely undermines the responsibility of the Elector.

Those are two of the three bases for having an EC in the first place, the third being that a voter/candidate in a far-flung place like New Hampshire wouldn't be familiar with a candidate/voter in Georgia. Vastly improved transportation and communication systems have rendered that concern also moot.

What's left to justify it? I got nothin'.