FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill

[MaggieMae]

READ THE FLIPPING BILL PEOPLE.....READ IT OR STFU

Those points are good to know, but they STILL remain points that are negotiable.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Funny how nobody is these days. Okay, then "non-democrats"? Same comments apply.

Deflections aside, it seems that you must, albeit kicking and screaming, admit that my eight- not one thousand- suggestions for improving US healthcare are superior to your advocating reducing coverage for the elderly and the ill to 'save money' (as though that ever entered into the plans of Democrats).

Truly, your attempts to avoid the substantive issue posed in my 'suggestions' post us unlike your old self.

It was far more fun when you would try to respond.

On the other hand, due to the weakness of your argument, I can understand your action- or, actually, inactions.

So, whadda ya' say, want to admit that the folks in the current administration are true believers, and, in the mold of so many radicals before them, their supposed love for humanity is obviated by its hatred of individuals. They've tipped their collective (pun intended) hands!

And in terms of the 'healthplan' under discussion, they have inserted a panel that will decline treatments and drugs that currently keep the sick and elderly alive, and the 'end of life' consultants will realize more life-ends, and the overall effect will be an iron-fisted grip on the lives of the well and those who wish to stay well.

Because if you can't punch holes in my list of 'suggestions,' that is exactly what it means.

C'mon, put up ya' dukes.

I already said (twice now) that I thought your 8 points were good ones. As for being superior, perhaps they are. It may surprise you to know that I'm not 100% enthralled with everything being stuffed into this bill either. It's too long and too complicated for even the experts to wrap themselves around completely. But I would like to see a bill because it is the first of many steps that will necessarily be involved in getting reform at least off the ground floor. The hard part is taking the blueprint (the bill) and actually designing a workable system, and there will be many bloody battles over how to do that.

As I recall, I don't respond point-by-point to either you or Publius because you both tend to off on tangents covering a wider range of topics that in reality are only remotely related to the topic at hand, and several quoted history lessons tossed in for good measure. I just don't have the time to go that deep, knowing full well if I did that you will come right back with another tome to dissect [exaggeration!!] I feel as though what I post is often lengthy enough, and anything longer will not get read or get lost in translation. And I dearly hate page after page of one-on-ones, so don't even try to engage me on this board in that manner. I will ignore you completely.

Oh, nuts.

I hate a draw.

 

[MaggieMae]

Maggie you should as them to slow down and read the bill then if your not happy with all of it.

I think the majority of normal republicans and democrats see that our health system has serious issues that must be addressed, dont let them rush through because the far right is making noise or the far left is telling you you're stupid if you dont want it done SUPER FAST.

Lets all slow em down and make sure the health plan, that will pass in some form, is passed in a way that is beneficial to the People and not to the politicians and their special interests.

I'm going to wait until the first working draft that will go to conference committee is prepared and posted. It's the only one the will matter. It's the only one that the experts will explain what has been eliminated, enhanced, or added to all the others.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

READ THE FLIPPING BILL PEOPLE.....READ IT OR STFU

Those points are good to know, but they STILL remain points that are negotiable.

Exactly.....thats why we need to be reading the bill as americans and shining light on the stuff we dont like. Then presenting it RESPECTFULLY to our representatives when they show up in public (IE no shouting down as if you were a code pink member).

No one listens to an a-hole .

EDIT: I like the post above this one

 

[Skull Pilot]

I suggest (to everyone) that rather than pick and choose pasted sections of the House Bill that they look at the outline of the final significant points they will use to formulate the actual bill. Culled from all of the proposals, these are the ones that are still being negotiated:

The House Democratic bill:

WHO'S COVERED: Around 94 percent of non-elderly residents (those not covered by Medicare, which kicks in at age 65) would be covered — compared with 81 percent today. Nearly half the 17 million non-elderly residents who remain uninsured would be illegal immigrants.

COST: About $1.5 trillion over 10 years.

HOW IT'S PAID FOR: Revenue-raisers include $544 billion over the next decade from new income taxes on single people making more than $280,000 a year and couples making more than $350,000; $37 billion in business tax increases; about $500 billion in cuts to Medicare and Medicaid; sizable penalties paid by individuals and employers who don't obtain coverage.

REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS: Individuals must have insurance, enforced through tax penalty with hardship waivers. The penalty is 2.5 percent of income.

REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYERS: Employers must provide insurance to their employees or pay a penalty of 8 percent of payroll. Companies with payroll under $250,000 annually are exempt. That level could rise to $500,000 under a deal between House leaders and fiscal conservatives.

Employers could apply for a two-year exemption from the mandate if they can prove the requirements would result in job losses that would negatively affect their communities.

SUBSIDIES: Individuals and families with annual income up to 400 percent of poverty level ($88,000 for a family of four) would get sliding-scale subsidies to help them buy coverage. The subsidies would begin in 2013.

HOW YOU CHOOSE YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE: Through a new Health Insurance Exchange open to individuals and, initially, small employers; it could be expanded to large employers over time. States could opt to operate their own exchanges in place of the national exchange if they follow federal rules.

BENEFIT PACKAGE: A committee would recommend an "essential benefits package" including preventive services, mental health services, oral heath and vision for children; out-of pocket costs would be capped. The new benefit package would be the basic benefit package offered in the exchange and over time would become the minimum quality standard for employer plans. Insurers wouldn't be able to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions.

GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: A new public plan available through the insurance exchanges would be set up and run by the secretary of Health and Human Services. Democrats originally designed the plan to pay Medicare rates plus 5 percent to doctors, but under Wednesday's deal with the fiscal conservatives the HHS secretary would instead negotiate rates with providers.

CHANGES TO MEDICAID: The federal-state insurance program for the poor would be expanded starting in 2013 to cover all non-elderly individuals with incomes up to 133 percent of the federal poverty level ($14,404).
___

The Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee's bill:

WHO'S COVERED: Aims to cover 97 percent of Americans.

COST: About $615 billion over 10 years, but it's only one piece of a larger Senate bill.

HOW IT'S PAID FOR: Another panel — the Senate Finance Committee — is responsible for figuring out how to cover costs.

REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS: Individuals will have to have insurance, enforced through tax penalty with hardship waivers.

REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYERS: Employers who don't offer coverage will pay a penalty of $750 a year for each full-time worker. Businesses with 25 or fewer workers are exempt.

SUBSIDIES: Available up to 400 percent poverty level, or $88,000 for a family of four.

BENEFITS PACKAGE: Health plans must offer a package of essential benefits recommended by a new Medical Advisory Council. No denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions.

GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: A robust new public plan to compete with private insurers. The plan would be run by the government but would pay doctors and hospitals based on what private insurers now pay.

HOW YOU CHOOSE YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE: Individuals and small businesses could purchase insurance through state-based purchasing pools called American Health Benefit Gateways.

OTHER PROVISIONS: Creates a new voluntary insurance program that would provide a modest daily cash benefit to help disabled people stay in their own homes instead of going into nursing homes.
___

A plan under discussion by a bipartisan group of six senators on the Finance Committee:

WHO'S COVERED: Around 97 percent of Americans. Illegal immigrants would not receive coverage.

COST: Around $1 trillion over 10 years.

HOW'S IT PAID FOR: Possible sources include cuts to Medicare and Medicaid; a tax as high as 35 percent on very high cost health insurance policies; a requirement for employers to pay into the Treasury for their employees who get their insurance through public programs or receive government subsidies to help pay premiums. Looking to raise $90 billion by taxing health insurance companies as much as 35 percent on policies valued at $25,000 or more.

REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS: Expected to include a requirement for individuals to get coverage.

REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYERS: In lieu of requiring employers to provide coverage, lawmakers are considering a "free rider" penalty based on how much the government ends up paying for workers' coverage.

SUBSIDIES: No higher than 300 percent of the federal poverty level ($66,150 for a family of four).

BENEFIT PACKAGE: The government doesn't mandate benefits but sets four benefit categories — ranging from coverage of around 65 percent of medical costs to about 90 percent — and insurers would be required to offer coverage in at least two categories. No denial of coverage based on pre-existing conditions.

GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: Unlike the other proposals the Finance Committee's will likely be bipartisan. With Republicans opposed to a government-run plan, the committee is looking at a compromise that would instead create nonprofit member-owned co-ops to compete with private insurers.

HOW YOU CHOOSE YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE: State-based exchanges.

CHANGES TO MEDICAID: Everyone at 100 percent of poverty would be eligible. Between 100 and 133 percent, states or individuals have the choice between coverage under Medicaid or a 100 percent subsidy in the exchange. The expansion would be delayed until 2013, a late change to save money — the start date had been 2011.
___

The House Republican proposal:

WHO'S COVERED: The House GOP's plan, in outline form for now, says it aims to make insurance affordable and accessible to all. There aren't estimates about how many additional people would be covered.

COST: Unknown.

HOW'S IT PAID FOR: No new taxes are proposed, but Republicans say they want to reduce Medicare and Medicaid fraud.

REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS: No mandates.

REQUIREMENTS FOR EMPLOYERS: No mandates; small business tax credits are offered. Employers are encouraged to move to "opt-out" rather than "opt-in" rules for offering health coverage.

SUBSIDIES: Tax credits are offered to "low- and modest-income" Americans. People who aren't covered through their employers but buy their own insurance are allowed to take a tax deduction. Low-income retirees younger than 65 (the eligibility age for Medicare) would be offered assistance.

BENEFIT PACKAGE: Insurers would have to allow children to stay on their parents' plan through age 25.

GOVERNMENT-RUN PLAN: No public plan.

HOW YOU CHOOSE YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE: No new purchasing exchange or marketplace is proposed. Health savings accounts and flexible spending plans would be strengthened.

CHANGES TO MEDICAID: People eligible for Medicaid would be allowed to use the value of their benefit to purchase a private plan.
___
The Associated Press: A look at health care plans in Congress

gee why doesn't the AP mention the tax penalties for having the wrong kind of insurance?

or the fact that insurance provided under ERISA will be eliminated?

MAYBE BECAUSE THOSE PROVISIONS HAVE BEEN ELIMINATED BY SIX WEEKS OF NEGOTIATION!!!!!!
Jesusfuckingchrist...

really, they're no longer in the bill?

gee the copy i downloaded today still has those provisions.

 

[MaggieMae]

Deflections aside, it seems that you must, albeit kicking and screaming, admit that my eight- not one thousand- suggestions for improving US healthcare are superior to your advocating reducing coverage for the elderly and the ill to 'save money' (as though that ever entered into the plans of Democrats).

Truly, your attempts to avoid the substantive issue posed in my 'suggestions' post us unlike your old self.

It was far more fun when you would try to respond.

On the other hand, due to the weakness of your argument, I can understand your action- or, actually, inactions.

So, whadda ya' say, want to admit that the folks in the current administration are true believers, and, in the mold of so many radicals before them, their supposed love for humanity is obviated by its hatred of individuals. They've tipped their collective (pun intended) hands!

And in terms of the 'healthplan' under discussion, they have inserted a panel that will decline treatments and drugs that currently keep the sick and elderly alive, and the 'end of life' consultants will realize more life-ends, and the overall effect will be an iron-fisted grip on the lives of the well and those who wish to stay well.

Because if you can't punch holes in my list of 'suggestions,' that is exactly what it means.

C'mon, put up ya' dukes.

I already said (twice now) that I thought your 8 points were good ones. As for being superior, perhaps they are. It may surprise you to know that I'm not 100% enthralled with everything being stuffed into this bill either. It's too long and too complicated for even the experts to wrap themselves around completely. But I would like to see a bill because it is the first of many steps that will necessarily be involved in getting reform at least off the ground floor. The hard part is taking the blueprint (the bill) and actually designing a workable system, and there will be many bloody battles over how to do that.

As I recall, I don't respond point-by-point to either you or Publius because you both tend to off on tangents covering a wider range of topics that in reality are only remotely related to the topic at hand, and several quoted history lessons tossed in for good measure. I just don't have the time to go that deep, knowing full well if I did that you will come right back with another tome to dissect [exaggeration!!] I feel as though what I post is often lengthy enough, and anything longer will not get read or get lost in translation. And I dearly hate page after page of one-on-ones, so don't even try to engage me on this board in that manner. I will ignore you completely.

Oh, nuts.

I hate a draw.

I know.

 

[MaggieMae]

READ THE FLIPPING BILL PEOPLE.....READ IT OR STFU

Those points are good to know, but they STILL remain points that are negotiable.

Exactly.....thats why we need to be reading the bill as americans and shining light on the stuff we dont like. Then presenting it RESPECTFULLY to our representatives when they show up in public (IE no shouting down as if you were a code pink member).

No one listens to an a-hole .

EDIT: I like the post above this one

Ha! And I like your very short point, which says it all^.

 

[maineman]

Does the government tell fed ex what it can charge to deliver a package?

Does the government tell fed ex that it can't charge more for an overnight package than it does for standard delivery?

does the government presently tell any HMO or PPO what they can or cannot charge as a premium for their services?

My point is they will be able to if the current bill is passed.

try to keep up

the government will tell a private HMO that they cannot charge above a certain amount for health insurance? I have not seen any such provision in legislation.

 

[Skull Pilot]

does the government presently tell any HMO or PPO what they can or cannot charge as a premium for their services?

My point is they will be able to if the current bill is passed.

try to keep up

the government will tell a private HMO that they cannot charge above a certain amount for health insurance? I have not seen any such provision in legislation.

premiums will be regulated as in you can't ask for more premium from a guy who is at higher risk than someone else and out of pocket expenses will be capped

As I said it would be like the government telling fed ex that they can't charge more for a heavy overnight international package than they can for a light local package

 

[Care4all]

the gvt has made auto insurance mandatory...why are cars more important than people, i wonder?

hey maineman! where've ya been?

care

 

[maineman]

the gvt has made auto insurance mandatory...why are cars more important than people, i wonder?

hey maineman! where've ya been?

care

preachin' and visitin' old folks....

that, and my house was hit by a CAR a few months ago....teenagers in a stolen car trying to run from the police smashed into my house... so I've had contractors and painters and landscapers crawling all over the place for two months.

 

[VaYank5150]

Where at in Maine?

 

[maineman]

Where at in Maine?

capital city

 

[Fallingleaf]

Sarah is still trying to stretch her 15 minutes of fame, I hope.
You are right the end of life and the death board are ridiculous.
I found the 1000 page document and found the section driving them crazy. It all deals with letting doctors get paid by medicare (this isn't payed for now) To assist people if they their choice is to have a living will, to help there wishes be honored.
Hope y'all are ready for some truth out there.
From bill HR 3200.
Advance Care Planning Consultation
`(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term `advance care planning consultation' means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:
`(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
`(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
`(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
`(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
`(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
`(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include--
`(I) the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual's family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes;
`(II) the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
`(III) the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy).
`(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement for explanations under clause (i) to consultations furnished in a State--
`(I) in which all legal barriers have been addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining treatment to constitute a set of medical orders respected across all care settings; and
`(II) that has in effect a program for orders for life sustaining treatment described in clause (iii).
`(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining treatment for a States described in this clause is a program that--
`(I) ensures such orders are standardized and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
`(II) distributes or makes accessible such orders to physicians and other health professionals that (acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law) may sign orders for life sustaining treatment;
`(III) provides training for health care professionals across the continuum of care about the goals and use of orders for life sustaining treatment; and
`(IV) is guided by a coalition of stakeholders includes representatives from emergency medical services, emergency department physicians or nurses, state long-term care association, state medical association, state surveyors, agency responsible for senior services, state department of health, state hospital association, home health association, state bar association, and state hospice association.
`(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is--
`(A) a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)); and
`(B) a nurse practitioner or physician's assistant who has the authority under State law to sign orders for life sustaining treatments.
`(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination under subsection (WW), including any related discussion during such examination, shall not be considered an advance care planning consultation for purposes of applying the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
`(B) An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.
`(4) A consultation under this subsection may include the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining treatment or a similar order.
`(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term `order regarding life sustaining treatment' means, with respect to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to the treatment of that individual that--
`(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as defined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care professional (as specified by the Secretary and who is acting within the scope of the professional's authority under State law in signing such an order, including a nurse practitioner or physician assistant) and is in a form that permits it to stay with the individual and be followed by health care professionals and providers across the continuum of care;
`(ii) effectively communicates the individual's preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, including an indication of the treatment and care desired by the individual;
`(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized within a given locality, region, or State (as identified by the Secretary); and
`(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the individual.
`(B) The level of treatment indicated under subparagraph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treatment to an indication to limit some or all or specified interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may include indications respecting, among other items--
`(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac or pulmonary problems;
`(ii) the individual's desire regarding transfer to a hospital or remaining at the current care setting;
`(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
`(iv) the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration.'.
(2) PAYMENT- Section 1848(j)(3) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(j)(3)) is amended by inserting `(2)(FF),' after `(2)(EE),'.
(3) FREQUENCY LIMITATION- Section 1862(a) of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395y(a)) is amended--
(A) in paragraph (1)--
(i) in subparagraph (N), by striking `and' at the end;
(ii) in subparagraph (O) by striking the semicolon at the end and inserting `, and'; and
(iii) by adding at the end the following new subparagraph:
`(P) in the case of advance care planning consultations (as defined in section 1861(hhh)(1)), which are performed more frequently than is covered under such section;'; and
(B) in paragraph (7), by striking `or (K)' and inserting `(K), or (P)'.
(4) EFFECTIVE DATE- The amendments made by this subsection shall apply to consultations furnished on or after January 1, 2011.
(b) Expansion of Physician Quality Reporting Initiative for End of Life Care-
(1) Physician'S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE- Section 1848(k)(2) of the Social Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(k)(2)) is amended by adding at the end the following new paragraphs:
`(3) Physician'S QUALITY REPORTING INITIATIVE-
`(A) IN GENERAL- For purposes of reporting data on quality measures for covered professional services furnished during 2011 and any subsequent year, to the extent that measures are available, the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.
`(B) PROPOSED SET OF MEASURES- The Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register proposed quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that the Secretary determines are described in subparagraph (A) and would be appropriate for eligible professionals to use to submit data to the Secretary. The Secretary shall provide for a period of public comment on such set of measures before finalizing such proposed measures.'.
(c) Inclusion of Information in Medicare & You Handbook-
(1) MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK-
(A) IN GENERAL- Not later than 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Health and Human Services shall update the online version of the Medicare & You Handbook to include the following:
(i) An explanation of advance care planning and advance directives, including--
(I) living wills;
(II) durable power of attorney;
(III) orders of life-sustaining treatment; and
(IV) health care proxies.
(ii) A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including--
(I) available State legal service organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning, including those organizations that receive funding pursuant to the Older Americans Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 93001 et seq.);
(II) website links or addresses for State-specific advance directive forms; and
(III) any additional information, as determined by the Secretary.
(B) UPDATE OF PAPER AND SUBSEQUENT VERSIONS- The Secretary shall include the information described in subparagraph (A) in all paper and electronic versions of the Medicare & You Handbook that are published on or after the date that is 1 year after the date of the enactment of this Act.
Truth is this is some people are just trying to divide America.
Falling leaf

 

[VaYank5150]

capital city

I'm origially from Bangor. Well, the OLD Dow AFB. I can't wait to get back to visit there again soon.

 

[Fallingleaf]

Sorry, new to posting that ex cert was from
would put url but it wont let me.
Library of Congress
It is 1000 pages long but if you press ctrl 6 you can type in end of life and get everytime it is mentioned in the bill. I copied them all.
Fallingleaf

 

[maineman]

capital city

I'm origially from Bangor. Well, the OLD Dow AFB. I can't wait to get back to visit there again soon.

It has been a wet and soggy summer, but even so, summer in Maine...ANY summer in Maine... is worth experiencing.

 

[Immanuel]

the gvt has made auto insurance mandatory...why are cars more important than people, i wonder?

hey maineman! where've ya been?

care

preachin' and visitin' old folks....

that, and my house was hit by a CAR a few months ago....teenagers in a stolen car trying to run from the police smashed into my house... so I've had contractors and painters and landscapers crawling all over the place for two months.

Good to see you MM even though I know this plan is going to be a frigging disaster and you support it, I'm still glad to see ya.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Opponents of a public health insurance option -- including Grassley -- contend it would drive private health insurers out of the market.

"Government is not a competitor, it's a predator," he said to applause. "Then everyone else's premiums go up, and pretty soon, there's not any private insurance."

Republican senator hears health care concerns back home - CNN.com

As Senator Grassley states, government is not a competitor but a predator. Private Health Insurance will be a thing of the past if this goes through.

Some of you may be cheering that outcome on, but just wait until government is the only insurer on the block. You won't be cheering then.

Immie

 

[VaYank5150]

It has been a wet and soggy summer, but even so, summer in Maine...ANY summer in Maine... is worth experiencing.

My folks were at Old Orchard a fews weeks back. Lobster for $3.99/lb is INSANE!!!