Faith is Born from Fear

[Youwerecreated]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Faith is born of confidence. Can what you have confidence in be wrong ? of course it can.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S. TIME.com

Just curious, which state has the highest level of income inequality?

Probably Texas.

my guess is the state that has both Hollywood and Redlands.....

Looks like we were both wrong

Ten States Where Income Inequality Has Soared - 24 7 Wall St.

 

[PostmodernProph]

The Loss of Upward Mobility in the U.S. TIME.com

Just curious, which state has the highest level of income inequality?

Probably Texas.

my guess is the state that has both Hollywood and Redlands.....

Looks like we were both wrong

Ten States Where Income Inequality Has Soared - 24 7 Wall St.

well, that's the hazard of using old numbers.....here in Michigan we got rid of our Democrat governor six years ago and things have been booming ever since......balanced our budget, cut taxes, reduced spending.....unemployment is down about five points.......

 

[PratchettFan]

Life without faith is empty. Most people require meaning to live. Therefore, it is not entirely irrational to have Faith. Perhaps our species can one day evolve to a point where we can place our Faith in each other instead of religion and dogma. Until then, most people will turn to God(s).

I don't think a lie is good no matter how good it makes you feel. I want to know the truth. That's what I seek. And when I ponder and don't know, that's ok with me. I'm not afraid. I might be a little sad at the thought one day it'll be over and maybe it'll be a horrible death rather than a quick one, but I don't fear death. I was dead before i was born and it didn't bother me one bit.

I do wonder/hope for something more after I die. That's just probably wishful thinking.

That shit christians muslims mormons and jews tell you, don't listen to them. They made it all up.

I got a flyer on my hood. Dr Judy is coming to town for a month in Plymouth, MI. She's going to tell people

How you can find piece and eternal life, tell what happens when you die, what happens right before end times, what role the USA plays, truth about the rapture, who the antichrist is and the mark of the beast and are heaven and hell real.

That's all completely praying on weak minded fearful people. You think this is good for them? To be conned by this church? Yes religions do a lot of good. Tell that to the Catholic kids that got molested or the 1400 kids in Ireland that got raped by muslims.

People need to know the truth. I need to make up my own flyer.

Ok. Here is the truth. You don't have a clue whether there is a God or not, or what the nature of God is if there is one. None of us do. All of the claims and assertions on both sides are nothing but pure belief. The more certain those assertions are, the greater the level of unsupported faith. You haven't freed yourself from belief, you have only changed your faith.

Agreed. Can the people I argue with agree with you?

It doesn't matter. Belief may sometimes be in compliance with reality but it doesn't create reality.

Thread is Faith is Born of Fear. The flyer on my car says it all. If we go to the meeting they're going to tell us:

How to find peace and find eternal life. If I'm worried about such things I would go to hear more.

What happens after death? Are you worried about that? If you are you'll show up. Will you believe her? Why? Tell me what evidence she presented to you.

What role the USA plays in bible prophecy, the rapture, mark of the beast, anti christ and is heaven and hell for real.

So, is religion born out of fear? You tell me.

No. It's not. Neither is faith. Anger is born of fear. Hatred and distrust are born of fear. Prejudice is born of fear. There are lots of things humans do which are born of fear. Religion and faith are not among them.

All those things are born in response to fear. Faith is just a more positive reaction but it is still a reaction. The first stage of grief of denial and faith is a denial of the inevitable truth. Nothing lasts forever. There is no such thing as eternal life.

You say that with a great deal of faith. Does that mean you are afraid?

 

[PratchettFan]

Does everyone here know what kind of paper the Village Voice is? I'm going to assume you do. Check out this column meant to help deprogram deep leftists from their reflexive criticisms of religious prayer. It's actually pretty sly and clever and should be of interest to both Atheists and religious believers. A man writes in furious because his grandmother suggested that the family pray for the man's brother who was diagnosed with cancer. Here's the response:

Dear Not Gonna Pray,

I'm deeply sorry to hear about your brother's diagnosis. I'm sending you my thoughts, and my heart goes out to your brother and your whole family. Guess what? That was me praying for you. I think the idea of "praying" is a lot less complicated, a lot more powerful, and a little different than you may realize. In fact, I'll bet you're already praying all the time and just don't realize it.

Prayer is a type of thought. It's a lot like meditation — a type of very concentrated mental focus with passionate emotion directed towards a concept or situation, or the lack thereof. But there's a special X-factor ingredient that makes "prayer" different than meditation or other types of thought. That X-factor is humility. This is the most seemingly contradictory aspect of prayer and what many people dislike about the feeling of praying. "Getting down on your knees" is not about lowering your power or being a weakling, it's about showing respect for the size and grandeur of what we call existence — it's about being humble in the presence of the vastness of life, space, and sensation, and acknowledging our extremely limited understanding of what it all really means. . . . . .

I want you to pray for your brother right now. As a gesture to your grandmother — who, if she didn't exist, neither would you. I want you to pray right now, just for the sake of challenging yourself. I want you to find a place alone, and kneel down — against all your stubborn tendencies telling you not to — and close your eyes and think of one concentrated thought: your brother.

I want you to think of your love for him. Your fear of him dying. Your feeling of powerlessness. Your feelings of anger and frustration. Your feelings of confusion. You don't need to ask to get anything. You don't need to try and fix anything. You don't need to get any answers. Just focus on every moment you've ever had with your brother. Reflect on every memory, from years ago, and even from just earlier today. Let the feelings wash over you. Let the feelings take you away from yourself. Let them bring you closer to him. Let yourself be overwhelmed by the unyielding and uncompromising emotion of him until you lose yourself in it.

Think about him more than you've ever thought about anyone before. Think about him more deeply and with more detail than you've ever thought about anything. Think about how incredible it is that you have a brother — that he exists at all. Focus on him until you feel like your soul is going to burst. Tell him in your heart and soul that you love him. Feel that love pouring out of you from all sides. Then get up and go be with him and your family. And you can tell your grandmother that you prayed for your brother.​

This looks like a psychotherapy. The man was furious the grandmother wanted them to pray. Not interested in joining in I understand, but furious? And so furious he had to write a letter to a newspaper about it? There is a lot of anger behind that and he really does need to get a handle on it. So the suggestion is a good one.

I see only two potential values to prayer. The primary is to the person doing the praying. They may use it to feel less powerless in a given situation or become more in touch with themselves. The second may well be to the person the prayer is being directed at. If they believe in such things the positive influence that others are thinking of him may well help. But the essence of that is belief. Otherwise, at best he might just appreciate the thought.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Life without faith is empty. Most people require meaning to live. Therefore, it is not entirely irrational to have Faith. Perhaps our species can one day evolve to a point where we can place our Faith in each other instead of religion and dogma. Until then, most people will turn to God(s).

I don't think a lie is good no matter how good it makes you feel. I want to know the truth. That's what I seek. And when I ponder and don't know, that's ok with me. I'm not afraid. I might be a little sad at the thought one day it'll be over and maybe it'll be a horrible death rather than a quick one, but I don't fear death. I was dead before i was born and it didn't bother me one bit.

I do wonder/hope for something more after I die. That's just probably wishful thinking.

That shit christians muslims mormons and jews tell you, don't listen to them. They made it all up.

I got a flyer on my hood. Dr Judy is coming to town for a month in Plymouth, MI. She's going to tell people

How you can find piece and eternal life, tell what happens when you die, what happens right before end times, what role the USA plays, truth about the rapture, who the antichrist is and the mark of the beast and are heaven and hell real.

That's all completely praying on weak minded fearful people. You think this is good for them? To be conned by this church? Yes religions do a lot of good. Tell that to the Catholic kids that got molested or the 1400 kids in Ireland that got raped by muslims.

People need to know the truth. I need to make up my own flyer.

Ok. Here is the truth. You don't have a clue whether there is a God or not, or what the nature of God is if there is one. None of us do. All of the claims and assertions on both sides are nothing but pure belief. The more certain those assertions are, the greater the level of unsupported faith. You haven't freed yourself from belief, you have only changed your faith.

Agreed. Can the people I argue with agree with you?

It doesn't matter. Belief may sometimes be in compliance with reality but it doesn't create reality.

Thread is Faith is Born of Fear. The flyer on my car says it all. If we go to the meeting they're going to tell us:

How to find peace and find eternal life. If I'm worried about such things I would go to hear more.

What happens after death? Are you worried about that? If you are you'll show up. Will you believe her? Why? Tell me what evidence she presented to you.

What role the USA plays in bible prophecy, the rapture, mark of the beast, anti christ and is heaven and hell for real.

So, is religion born out of fear? You tell me.

No. It's not. Neither is faith. Anger is born of fear. Hatred and distrust are born of fear. Prejudice is born of fear. There are lots of things humans do which are born of fear. Religion and faith are not among them.

All those things are born in response to fear. Faith is just a more positive reaction but it is still a reaction. The first stage of grief of denial and faith is a denial of the inevitable truth. Nothing lasts forever. There is no such thing as eternal life.

You say that with a great deal of faith. Does that mean you are afraid?

I'll be totally honest it depends on the day. Sometimes I sit there and think about just how short the human lifespan is when compared to time on the cosmic scale and it messes with me. But the rest of the time I'm too busy living my life to its fullest potential to worry about when it will end. I can't do anything about it so I've decided to just skip to the final stage of grief. Acceptance.

 

[PratchettFan]

Life without faith is empty. Most people require meaning to live. Therefore, it is not entirely irrational to have Faith. Perhaps our species can one day evolve to a point where we can place our Faith in each other instead of religion and dogma. Until then, most people will turn to God(s).

I don't think a lie is good no matter how good it makes you feel. I want to know the truth. That's what I seek. And when I ponder and don't know, that's ok with me. I'm not afraid. I might be a little sad at the thought one day it'll be over and maybe it'll be a horrible death rather than a quick one, but I don't fear death. I was dead before i was born and it didn't bother me one bit.

I do wonder/hope for something more after I die. That's just probably wishful thinking.

That shit christians muslims mormons and jews tell you, don't listen to them. They made it all up.

I got a flyer on my hood. Dr Judy is coming to town for a month in Plymouth, MI. She's going to tell people

How you can find piece and eternal life, tell what happens when you die, what happens right before end times, what role the USA plays, truth about the rapture, who the antichrist is and the mark of the beast and are heaven and hell real.

That's all completely praying on weak minded fearful people. You think this is good for them? To be conned by this church? Yes religions do a lot of good. Tell that to the Catholic kids that got molested or the 1400 kids in Ireland that got raped by muslims.

People need to know the truth. I need to make up my own flyer.

Ok. Here is the truth. You don't have a clue whether there is a God or not, or what the nature of God is if there is one. None of us do. All of the claims and assertions on both sides are nothing but pure belief. The more certain those assertions are, the greater the level of unsupported faith. You haven't freed yourself from belief, you have only changed your faith.

Agreed. Can the people I argue with agree with you?

It doesn't matter. Belief may sometimes be in compliance with reality but it doesn't create reality.

Thread is Faith is Born of Fear. The flyer on my car says it all. If we go to the meeting they're going to tell us:

How to find peace and find eternal life. If I'm worried about such things I would go to hear more.

What happens after death? Are you worried about that? If you are you'll show up. Will you believe her? Why? Tell me what evidence she presented to you.

What role the USA plays in bible prophecy, the rapture, mark of the beast, anti christ and is heaven and hell for real.

So, is religion born out of fear? You tell me.

No. It's not. Neither is faith. Anger is born of fear. Hatred and distrust are born of fear. Prejudice is born of fear. There are lots of things humans do which are born of fear. Religion and faith are not among them.

All those things are born in response to fear. Faith is just a more positive reaction but it is still a reaction. The first stage of grief of denial and faith is a denial of the inevitable truth. Nothing lasts forever. There is no such thing as eternal life.

You say that with a great deal of faith. Does that mean you are afraid?

I'll be totally honest it depends on the day. Sometimes I sit there and think about just how short the human lifespan is when compared to time on the cosmic scale and it messes with me. But the rest of the time I'm too busy living my life to its fullest potential to worry about when it will end. I can't do anything about it so I've decided to just skip to the final stage of grief. Acceptance.

That doesn't sound like fear to me. If your faith isn't born of fear, then that pretty much blows apart the premise of the thread.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

In order for that statement to work you would first have to prove that I stated at some point that I have faith.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It posts like this make me sad to see the disagree button go

Because pushing a button is so much easier than admitting you cannot refute what I said, right?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Probably Texas.

Definitely not Texas.

Hint, it is controlled by Democrats, and the governor thinks the state is find despite the fact that the poverty rate is going up.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

All those things are born in response to fear. Faith is just a more positive reaction but it is still a reaction. The first stage of grief of denial and faith is a denial of the inevitable truth. Nothing lasts forever. There is no such thing as eternal life.

You now have a choice, offer some actual evidence to back up your claim, or continue to pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

We don't need any such ability because we can do one better. We can study their brains.

Study away, but any claim that their emotions are the same as human emotions makes you guilty of anthropomorphizing them.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Neuroscience and biology can easily explain why some animals seem to posses this fear while others, even of the same species don't. It is very likely that the squirrel that is the first to eat from the hand has a smaller, or less active amygdala therefore reducing the potency of the flight or fight response when faced with new and possibly threatening situations. The others likely follow suit because they've seen one of their own achieve positive results.

His claim that all animals, including humans, have an innate fear of the unknown, he was wrong. I don't need to use junk science to prove him wrong, but feel to use it yourself if you feel the need to contradict someone.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I agree that some atheists are too harsh on the religious and that in the end the net result of such actions are more negative than positive but I disagree with what you said about the source that people derive meaning being irrelevant. What triggers that feeling of belonging is important because our thoughts too often inspire our actions and religious dogma often inspires violent and/or oppressive actions.

While it is true that the source of a belief is relevant, your rejection of that source as being built on negative emotions is absurd. Just because you cannot imagine a faith built on trusting and knowing someone is not proof that that faith does not exist. Religions faith does not make people violent, they are violent because, like it or not, we are all violent. Some people use religion to rationalize their violence, others use patriotism, still others use logic. That does not make logic and patriotism bad, it just shows that people are able to use anything, including the teachings of Buddha, to justify their actions.

The fact that you refuse to get beyond your personal hatred is simply proof of your lack of growth, it in no way reflects negative on other people.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Have you ever experienced emotional catharsis? Think back to puppy love. Your girl dumped you. You were crushed. You purged your emotions, "Why me" "Oh it hurts so much" "phew, now I feel better." Or maybe a death of a loved one. Or do you know any women? Seen a crying jag? Notice how they feel better afterwards?

The article isn't advising him to humor his grandmother, unless I misconstrued something, it's talking about developing an experience which arises from meditation or prayer. Humans are drug factories. We can change our state of consciousness by releasing hormones in our brains triggered by emotional states. Many people who pray feel, so I'm told, a sense of peace and calmness afterwards. They say God's love is washing over them. I think that they've just experienced a neurochemical bathing of their brain. they say that God triggered the nuerochemicals. I say ok. I'm more interested in what they felt than who pulled the trigger.

Bingo.

There are actual scientific studies that show how meditation and prayer actually makes people physically healthier than people who do not practice either one.

Over the past decade or so, numerous studies have suggested that prayer and meditation can enhance physical health and healing from illness. In this stimulating and provocative book, two academics at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Spirituality and the Mind contend that contemplating God actually reduces stress, which in turn prevents the deterioration of the brain's dendrites and increases neuroplasticity. The authors conclude that meditation and other spiritual practices permanently strengthen neural functioning in specific parts of the brain that aid in lowering anxiety and depression, enhancing social awareness and empathy, and improving cognitive functioning. The book's middle section draws on the authors' research on how people experience God and where in the brain that experience might be located. Finally, the authors offer exercises for enhancing physical, mental and spiritual health. Their suggestions are commonsensical and common to other kinds of health regimens: smile, stay intellectually active, consciously relax, yawn, meditate, exercise aerobically, dialogue with others and trust in your beliefs. Although the book's title is a bit misleading, since it is not God but spiritual practice that changes the brain, this forceful study could stir controversy among scientists and philosophers.

How God Changes Your Brain Breakthrough Findings from a Leading Neuroscientist Andrew Newberg M.D. Mark Robert Waldman 9780345503428 Amazon.com Books

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What I worry about is a slow and incremental backpedaling to a culture with those same social norms as a result of Christian supremacy in this country. I don't really see it as much of a certainty, rather I am pleased to say that the opposite seems more likely, however I am still aware of what the likely consequences could be of Christian hardliners achieving the marriage of church and state that they desire.

I see now, you worry about something that you cannot actually show any evidence is occurring, and you use your fear to claim that other people are afraid.

Makes sense, to a crazy person.

 

[PratchettFan]

In order for that statement to work you would first have to prove that I stated at some point that I have faith.

No problem. I quote you directly, "There is no such thing as eternal life." That is a statement of pure, unadulterated faith. It is based upon nothing but belief. So it would appear my statement works.

 

[Rikurzhen]

In order for that statement to work you would first have to prove that I stated at some point that I have faith.

No problem. I quote you directly, "There is no such thing as eternal life." That is a statement of pure, unadulterated faith. It is based upon nothing but belief. So it would appear my statement works.

I warned him that someone would catch that.

 

[Hollie]

Have you ever experienced emotional catharsis? Think back to puppy love. Your girl dumped you. You were crushed. You purged your emotions, "Why me" "Oh it hurts so much" "phew, now I feel better." Or maybe a death of a loved one. Or do you know any women? Seen a crying jag? Notice how they feel better afterwards?

The article isn't advising him to humor his grandmother, unless I misconstrued something, it's talking about developing an experience which arises from meditation or prayer. Humans are drug factories. We can change our state of consciousness by releasing hormones in our brains triggered by emotional states. Many people who pray feel, so I'm told, a sense of peace and calmness afterwards. They say God's love is washing over them. I think that they've just experienced a neurochemical bathing of their brain. they say that God triggered the nuerochemicals. I say ok. I'm more interested in what they felt than who pulled the trigger.

Bingo.

There are actual scientific studies that show how meditation and prayer actually makes people physically healthier than people who do not practice either one.

Over the past decade or so, numerous studies have suggested that prayer and meditation can enhance physical health and healing from illness. In this stimulating and provocative book, two academics at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Spirituality and the Mind contend that contemplating God actually reduces stress, which in turn prevents the deterioration of the brain's dendrites and increases neuroplasticity. The authors conclude that meditation and other spiritual practices permanently strengthen neural functioning in specific parts of the brain that aid in lowering anxiety and depression, enhancing social awareness and empathy, and improving cognitive functioning. The book's middle section draws on the authors' research on how people experience God and where in the brain that experience might be located. Finally, the authors offer exercises for enhancing physical, mental and spiritual health. Their suggestions are commonsensical and common to other kinds of health regimens: smile, stay intellectually active, consciously relax, yawn, meditate, exercise aerobically, dialogue with others and trust in your beliefs. Although the book's title is a bit misleading, since it is not God but spiritual practice that changes the brain, this forceful study could stir controversy among scientists and philosophers.

How God Changes Your Brain Breakthrough Findings from a Leading Neuroscientist Andrew Newberg M.D. Mark Robert Waldman 9780345503428 Amazon.com Books

Nicely done. You refuted your own argument that prayer (some alleged communications with the gawds, does what you hoped to portray it does).

From your article:
"Although the book's title is a bit misleading, since it is not God but spiritual practice that changes the brain, this forceful study could stir controversy among scientists and philosophers."



Why pray at all? Aren’t you in effect bargaining with the gawds? Do you believe the gawds will reward you with something in exchange for a specific behavior?

As to the efficacy of prayer, perceived from a position of meditation I would not deny that it clears the mind -- but prayer from a religionist perspective is not meditation, it is an asserted communication that has some actual real specific effect on human issues. This remains totally undemonstrated except in the following manner -- it is a very powerful brainwashing tool, which is why the more fanatical or fundamental a religion is, the more reliant on the asserted efficacy of prayer you're liable to find.

I know religionists will say, "Well, that's not god's fault" or something similar, but the point is this: Prayer doesn't actually work (at least it remains asserted and unproven that it does). Clearing the mind? Allowing a person to collect their thoughts? Giving the illusion of comfort (which may be indistinguishable from comfort itself), yes to all of those. But does it actually work? No, it can be shown over and over that it does not. And the fact is, many people actually rely on it, usually to their disappointment or worse.

 

[koshergrl]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Really?

Which Christians said this? Please cite and link.