Fed up with the two parties, a new group forms

[HereWeGoAgain]

Don't I know it.
I have been preaching to people - Trump is irrelevant. He could have been Pee Wee Herman...Trump is not WHO they voted for. Trump is what they voted AGAINST.
But the media is not going to allow that truth to sink in. And neither is the establishment.
They will spend every single day - 24 hours a day, for the next four years trying to make Trump look like Mao Zedong.
They will try and convince you that everything he wants to do will create calamity and mayhem like never before.
Never do this again. Always stick with us. We are the voice of reason.
And if they win..... it will be back to the status quo...the rich will get even richer. Jobs will continue to pour out of America, corporations will get even bigger. And we, the fools that we are...will applaud while they do it.

Well, the media is its own animal. I don't know that Trump's status as an outsider is an issue for them (and I still have friends in it from my days in it), but with his behaviors, those of the people who support him, and his over-the-top attacks on them, they've obviously eschewed even a pretense of objectivity.

I'd be interested to see how they covered a strong, viable third party. That would probably tell us more about their feelings on the "establishment".
.

Are you old enough to remember Ross Perot?

Sure. But he wasn't a party, he was one guy. And he was a little loopy in his own right.
.

Trump is looking more like a party of one with a few fruit loops surrounding him.

The question will be whether he damages chances for other "outsiders" in the future.
.

I dont think you lay the blame on Trump when you consider everyone and their dog is trying to bring him down.

Thats on the establishment.

 

[debbiedowner]

Well, the media is its own animal. I don't know that Trump's status as an outsider is an issue for them (and I still have friends in it from my days in it), but with his behaviors, those of the people who support him, and his over-the-top attacks on them, they've obviously eschewed even a pretense of objectivity.

I'd be interested to see how they covered a strong, viable third party. That would probably tell us more about their feelings on the "establishment".
.

Are you old enough to remember Ross Perot?

Sure. But he wasn't a party, he was one guy. And he was a little loopy in his own right.
.

Trump is looking more like a party of one with a few fruit loops surrounding him.

The question will be whether he damages chances for other "outsiders" in the future.
.

I dont think you lay the blame on Trump when you consider everyone and their dog is trying to bring him down.

Thats on the establishment.

I don't lay blame on Trump's party of one, but I do lay blame on his choices for trusted adviser's, he picked them.

I had a feeling he was really neither a dem or repub, but years ago he used to be dem. To me he is neither or a libertarian.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Are you old enough to remember Ross Perot?

Sure. But he wasn't a party, he was one guy. And he was a little loopy in his own right.
.

Trump is looking more like a party of one with a few fruit loops surrounding him.

The question will be whether he damages chances for other "outsiders" in the future.
.

I dont think you lay the blame on Trump when you consider everyone and their dog is trying to bring him down.

Thats on the establishment.

I don't lay blame on Trump's party of one, but I do lay blame on his choices for trusted adviser's, he picked them.

I had a feeling he was really neither a dem or repub, but years ago he used to be dem. To me he is neither or a libertarian.

Makes you wonder...
If the establishment is so hell bent on rejecting his appointees are they really the wrong choice?

 

[imawhosure]

Fed up with the 2 parties, a group of centrists rises up

For now, it's most likely just wishful thinking. It has been tried a few times recently and fell on its face.

But you never know when something is going to catch on. So, fingers crossed.

Surely there are more and more people who are sick and tired of this current mess, and the people causing it.
.

You are fighting a mental plague.
Americans have a notorious problem of simply not caring.
We are selfish. Easily distracted, and even more easily entertained. We are like magpies, constantly filling our lives with the next shiny object. Paying little to no attention to looming and glaring problems all around us.
Trying to gather together a large section of the population to actually pay attention...and stop the petty, meaningless in fighting and realize we are nothing but little pawns used against each other by the elites while they steal from us.
We are a plutocratic corporatocracy. Big money and big business control absolutely everything. They get all the breaks. They get all the laws written for their favor. And all they have to do is provide simple entertainment and stir up the pot of meaningless controversy and we just keep right on ignoring them.
This forum is a prime A1 example of just that.

Yeah, can't argue. I tend to look at most of our problems as being culturally based, and this is certainly no exception.

In fact, it may be the biggest and most dangerous (and predictable!) manifestation of what you describe.
.

My good man, when you have over 50% of the people agreeing with a position, then what position do you take? And if you take those positions too, then you are splitting the vote (regardless of Democrat/Republican) and putting the minority position in power! Is it not better to retake the political parties from those running it today? Is it not better to get 75% of what you want instead of 0?

This is why I am a registered independent. I know it may be hard to believe, but I have actually voted for some Democrats. They were the better choice! Our political parties should NOT be funding our reps or senators, it should all be local contributions. As soon as it becomes PARTY, they lose their autonomy and must toe the party line. We must allow them independence so they can vote either way, for a dem, or repub bill.

Let me put it another way-------------> in any election, why would I vote against even 50% of what I believe, if I know my vote will get me 0% of what I believe by allowing the person in that is totally against me? That is why a concerted effort by all of us to retake our parties is so critical.

QUESTION-----------> Forget you don't like Trump and ask this---------> If Trump would have run as a 3rd party candidate against Hillary and Kasich, would he have won? Would Kasich have won?

Now, what if Hillary ran as a 3rd party against Biden and Trump, then what?

See my point!

It is up to us to retake our political parties and turn them around. Hard? Yes! But to just create another entity that agree with us will insure the other side wins every time. Now, if not under these circumstances, that might be ok, but no matter your position on issues, do you have long enough to build a base and turn the tide before this country collapses? No matter your position, I do not think you would say, "yes, we have enough time!"

Time for elbow grease Mac, it really is! You give us a JFK clone, and we will give you a Coolidge clone. Now we are talking-) Americans can't lose!

I don't know what "retaking our parties" would look like, how we could get there from here. Would a real statesman, a person who could/would reach across party lines for the best ideas from each, even be nominated right now? No way, because the "base" in each party would see to their destruction.

So let's go with your way: Assuming we remain this two-party-only system (certainly most likely), what can be done within the parties to end this increasingly binary political mess?

Or, do you even feel that we have a problem?
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Of course we have a problem, and they are multiple. But the fact of the matter remains; today it is easier to retake a party then it ever was. We do not have to go around the country and speak, we just type. There are plenty of like minded individuals to help, as is obvious by the amount of independents there are who are fed up. We have the power, we have the vote.

Where the problem lies with a 3rd party is easy to explain-------->what is their primary goal, and what is yours, and what is everyone else? You and I could agree on removing Washington's power, yes? What happens when we get to illegal aliens? What if the new candidate says, "let them stay?" Then 85% of Repubs say, "no way Jose," and go back. You and yours split the Democratic vote, and in goes the Republican every time.

There is another thread on here asking 1 policy that both Dems/repubs could agree on. Look at it! Now you tell me when it gets down to choosing a platform, how that is going to work, lol. (not funny, but truthful)

That is why it is better to work within the system to change it. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that both partys would do everything possible to CRUSH a 3rd party, and I challenge ANYONE to come up with a platform for a 3rd party that both liberals and conservatives could agree on to even form it. That is 100% accurate, and it is fact. We can all wish and it gets us nowhere.

I challenge any one of the people in this thread to devise a platform to fit the majority! Oh sure, you will come up with a some things and feel confident, and then when we come back and say, what about abortion? What about taxes? What about climate change? What about illegals? What about set asides? What about entitlements? And poof, there goes the coalition. Half of the coalition will leave because whatever the outcome of the discussion, they won't be able to stomach the choices made for the platform. And do not even try and say, "we will just not put them in!" Those are the issues of our time!

So again, I suggest...........you do your utmost to change the party you are affiliated with. Just try and make a what you see as a reasonable platform, and watch how fast as your coalition balks, you understand I am correct.

 

[Iceweasel]

There are many political parties. True, only two hold any real power but people are free to vote for anyone that makes it on the ballot. Perot ran as an Independent and got 18%. Johnson got 4% as a Libertarian. The problem is they didn't have a message most could get behind. That isn't a flaw in the party system.

What happens is that people that win can and do influence the direction of the party. It's easier to move the party than trying to build a competitive one from the ground up.

Trump is hardly traditional but won by his message and raked in a lot of blue collar democrats. He also ran on some big government programs, which I'm not a fan of so may end up moving the party to the left. The dems have been shifting that way for 30 years or more and are now so far over a socialist could have won in a fair fight.

It's not a perfect system but if you think multiple party governments are the answer why is Europe all over the map from one election to the next? I'm not seeing the advantage.

 

[imawhosure]

There are many political parties. True, only two hold any real power but people are free to vote for anyone that makes it on the ballot. Perot ran as an Independent and got 18%. Johnson got 4% as a Libertarian. The problem is they didn't have a message most could get behind. That isn't a flaw in the party system.

What happens is that people that win can and do influence the direction of the party. It's easier to move the party than trying to build a competitive one from the ground up.

Trump is hardly traditional but won by his message and raked in a lot of blue collar democrats. He also ran on some big government programs, which I'm not a fan of so may end up moving the party to the left. The dems have been shifting that way for 30 years or more and are now so far over a socialist could have won in a fair fight.

It's not a perfect system but if you think multiple party governments are the answer why is Europe all over the map from one election to the next? I'm not seeing the advantage.

I agree with you Ice, the whole notion of a 3rd party that can win with a majority is ridiculous. Win seats in congress, maybe.

And to those who say it is to hard to change the direction of your party, I say----------> if you didn't even try, then do not cry! Ask yourself this-------> why doesn't the green party and libertarians, Communists, Socialists, and all other partys band together against the big 2? ANSWER--------->because the coalition is NOT possible because of beliefs, just as getting a coalition of the majority is IMPOSSIBLE without taking part of the big 2s platform, meaning whichever platform you take, you are insuring the other party WINS because you have split YOUR vote!

 

[kiwiman127]

Let's review third parties, shall we?

2016- Dope Smoking Gary Johnson hands election to Trump.
2000- Hippy Ralph Nader hands the election to Bush.
1992- Crazy Ross Perot hands the election to Slick Willy
1980 - Wacky John Anderson hands the election to Ronnie Ray-gun!
1968 - Racist George Wallace hands the election to Tricky-Dick
1948 - Racist Strom Thurmond and Commie Henry Wallace almost hand the election to Thomas Dewey.

Here's the thing with third parties. They are truly fucking useless.

Better system. Scrap the electoral college, and do what the French are doing- You have an election, and if no one gets 50%, you have a runoff between the two top vote getters.

If a third party has a really good idea, then it will grow from cycle to cycle.

Voters are really getting tired of the polarization in Washington..They are smart enough to know that nothing gets done.
Americans Continue to Want Political Leaders to Compromise
After the last election, I think more and more Americans are getting sick of both parties and what they offer. Trump or Hillary? The worse choice in the history of America. a total lose-lose for America.
Thus, the-number of Independents is on the rise, while both major parties are on the decline.
Party Identification
Let's face it, in America, most people are centralist/moderates and both parties are moving more and more to the extreme. Throw the extremist out! Has there ever been an extremist driven country that has been great and had longevity?

 

[Iceweasel]

I only hear the people want compromise when the left loses. As if everyone was all aboard with Obama's agenda.

 

[kiwiman127]

I only hear the people want compromise when the left loses. As if everyone was all aboard with Obama's agenda.

A typical hyper-partisan remark. Here's a another poll before the GOP took control of the House and Obama was president.
Voters Want Compromise in Washington, But Doubt It Will Happen | Home of the Marist Poll
Only immature dumbasses think that things can get done successfully, without any compromise, That is NOT how it works with this countries most successful companies and people.

 

[Iceweasel]

I only hear the people want compromise when the left loses. As if everyone was all aboard with Obama's agenda.

A typical hyper-partisan remark. Here's a another poll before the GOP took control of the House and Obama was president.
Voters Want Compromise in Washington, But Doubt It Will Happen | Home of the Marist Poll
Only immature dumbasses think that things can get done successfully, without any compromise, That is NOT how it works with this countries most successful companies and people.

First I've heard of it. Like I said I never hear of it when the left is in power. Suddenly it's newsworthy. But hyper partisan wouldn't know.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, Trump does represent the real outsider breaking through the "establishment" wall in DC, and I'm all for that, but it could pretty easily end up that he'll be the wrong guy to have done that. If he fails, and especially if this presidency crashes and burns, he could wreck the chances for other outsiders for the foreseeable future.

God, I can only hope so! frankly, I don't see the appeal of an "outsider" to the stupids. An outsider is just a guy who has no clue as to what is going on or how things work, and they usually end up getting nothing done.

As Tip O'Neill said of Jimmy Carter "He came here as an outsider and he left as an outsider".

Seriously, would you want an "outsider" as a doctor who never worked at that hospital and didn't know any of the staff if you had to undergo a major surgery? Would you want a lawyer who had never stepped foot in a courtroom if you were facing the death penalty? Of course not. You'd want someone who really knew what he was doing and knew the system.

But you think, "Let's elect the reality TV Guy, because he's an outsider" and then you wonder why we are getting exactly the results we are getting right now.

But really, that's been the danger all along, since the day he announced. His supporters have celebrated (or at least pretended to celebrate) his various foibles, but it may turn out that he's setting a bad precedent.

Again, it depends.

The Racists who are unhappy that being White isn't what it used to be in this country are probably happy, because at least everyone else is going to share their misery. (Although I think things are going to get a lot more miserable really quickly.)

The 'Von Papen" Republicans who thought they could control this guy once he got into office are finding out that they have to clean up their own house before they can get this guy under control.

 

[JoeB131]

I dont think you lay the blame on Trump when you consider everyone and their dog is trying to bring him down.

Thats on the establishment.

No, that's on Trump.

I think when you accuse Marco Rubio of having a small dick and Ted Cruz's dad of killing JFK, and disparage John McCain's War Service and all the other nasty things he's said about his fellow Republicans, much less the Democrats, and then expect these guys to help him out when he fails to provide any leadership or guidance and acts like a petulant 12 year old when he doesn't get his way...

Why is his failure anyone's fault but his own?

 

[ChrisL]

Notice that it's always the libs who are against the formation of another party. Do you ever wonder the real reason why?

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Again, it depends.

The Racists who are unhappy that being White isn't what it used to be in this country are probably happy, because at least everyone else is going to share their misery. (Although I think things are going to get a lot more miserable really quickly.)

The 'Von Papen" Republicans who thought they could control this guy once he got into office are finding out that they have to clean up their own house before they can get this guy under control.

It is amazing how you and the majority of liberals miss the giant neon sign right in front of you.
You guys complain about Trump, but seem to forget the glaring question as to just how in the world did this complete joke beat us??? When we all know that it wasn't Republican voters that put him in - it was Democrat voters who refused to vote for Hillary.
Again and again you are missing the message. The vast majority of Americans, who don't live in coastal liberal la la lands - are absolutely sick and tired of getting the shaft...wait for it...by BOTH sides. America is now a plutocratic corporatocracy. PERIOD. And it became that way despite the fact that in the past 30 years your supposedly "for the little guy" party had control of the entire government 67% of the time. Think about that. The Democrats controlled most of the federal government for all these years and what we got for it is a thoroughly corrupt big money machine whereby the rich are getting amazingly richer and we keep getting screwed.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Read the piece. Looked for positions on issues and found none.

 

[Moonglow]

Notice that it's always the libs who are against the formation of another party. Do you ever wonder the real reason why?

Bull...Moose party

 

[JoeB131]

Notice that it's always the libs who are against the formation of another party. Do you ever wonder the real reason why?

Mostly because it just allows you guys to confuse the issue and give us disasters like Bush and Trump...

 

[JoeB131]

It is amazing how you and the majority of liberals miss the giant neon sign right in front of you.
You guys complain about Trump, but seem to forget the glaring question as to just how in the world did this complete joke beat us???

Because the Russians hacked a system set up by Slave Rapists who didn't trust the people to make a good decision?

Our faulty system failed and gave us a result most of us didn't want.

Now, imagine if we had a system like France had. Neither Hillary nor Trump got 50%, they go to a runoff and all the clowns who voted for Johnson, McCullough and Stein would have to make a real decision.

When we all know that it wasn't Republican voters that put him in - it was Democrat voters who refused to vote for Hillary.

Again, not really. What put him in was an awful system developed in the 18th century.

If we listened to the voters, Hillary would be president right now.

Now, I do agree, a large part of the problem was people who knew Trump was bad news, but believed all the horseshit about Benghazi and Email servers and fake news, and thought, "Well, since Hillary already has this in the bag, I can do a protest vote for Johnson, who can't possibly win."

and some of those people lived in swing states, unfortunately.

Americans, who don't live in coastal liberal la la lands - are absolutely sick and tired of getting the shaft...wait for it...by BOTH sides.

Here's the problem with that kind of thinking. Here's a map of which states are getting federal dollars and which ones are paying them.

You see, if anyone is getting the shaft, it's the folks in the "Coastal" states who pay more to the federal government than they get back. Meanwhile, those states who whine so much about how they are being 'shafted" are the ones who get more money back than they pay in.

America is now a plutocratic corporatocracy. PERIOD. And it became that way despite the fact that in the past 30 years your supposedly "for the little guy" party had control of the entire government 67% of the time. Think about that.

But that isn't true, either. In the past 30 years, The Democrats have controlled everything for all of four years - 93-94, and 2009-10. and that's IT. By comparison, the GOP has controlled everything for four years 2003-2006.

Beyond that, the GOP controlled the Senate for 14 of those 30 years, The presidency for 14 of those 30 years, and the House for 18 of those 30 years.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Let's review third parties, shall we?

2016- Dope Smoking Gary Johnson hands election to Trump.
2000- Hippy Ralph Nader hands the election to Bush.
1992- Crazy Ross Perot hands the election to Slick Willy
1980 - Wacky John Anderson hands the election to Ronnie Ray-gun!
1968 - Racist George Wallace hands the election to Tricky-Dick
1948 - Racist Strom Thurmond and Commie Henry Wallace almost hand the election to Thomas Dewey.

Here's the thing with third parties. They are truly fucking useless.

Better system. Scrap the electoral college, and do what the French are doing- You have an election, and if no one gets 50%, you have a runoff between the two top vote getters.

If a third party has a really good idea, then it will grow from cycle to cycle.

That's the system we have in California for local elections. It's how we became Democrat controlled. We have a 16% turnout rate.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The people are the cause of the polarization in Washington. They vote for increasing hard,liners for their side.