Fetus can't feel pain before 24 weeks, study says

[Jack Fate]

"Progressives" (now that's funny) will use any excuse they can find to justify murdering a human being in the womb. It can't feel pain, it isn't human, it can't live on it's own, etc, etc. None of those excuses can overcome the fact that the fetus is a human being. Not part human, but entirely human even before conception. A human egg and a human sperm.

A fetus doesn't exist "before conception"

I never said it existed as a fetus before conception.. I said it was human as a human egg and a human sperm even before conception. This might be a little too deep for you.

 

[sangha]

It is funny though, I have never heard or read any pro-life people that make that claim especially not as the sole basis for their argument. I have, however, read pro-choicers who make the claim that is the case.

Immie

Then you haven't heard or read the pro-life arguments against third-trimester abortions. Here's a link to Reagan making the argument

Reagan on Fetal Pain During Abortion

Thank you.

I am trying to download the link but not getting the full copy at the moment for some reason. Give me a minute.

Immie

Try this link to a Wisconsin law that women seeking an abortion are fully informed regarding the pain experienced by their unborn child

Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act of 2005 -- S51

So much for your claim that pro-life groups arent' pushing this. They are even getting laws passed about it

 

[sangha]

"Progressives" (now that's funny) will use any excuse they can find to justify murdering a human being in the womb. It can't feel pain, it isn't human, it can't live on it's own, etc, etc. None of those excuses can overcome the fact that the fetus is a human being. Not part human, but entirely human even before conception. A human egg and a human sperm.

A fetus doesn't exist "before conception"

I never said it existed as a fetus before conception.. I said it was human as a human egg and a human sperm even before conception. This might be a little too deep for you.

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

 

[Jack Fate]

A fetus doesn't exist "before conception"

I never said it existed as a fetus before conception.. I said it was human as a human egg and a human sperm even before conception. This might be a little too deep for you.

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

 

[sangha]

I never said it existed as a fetus before conception.. I said it was human as a human egg and a human sperm even before conception. This might be a little too deep for you.

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

A human egg and a human sperm cell is not a human.

 

[Jack Fate]

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

A human egg and a human sperm cell is not a human.

They are not a human being, but they are human. A human "being" cannot be created without them.

 

[sangha]

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

A human egg and a human sperm cell is not a human.

They are not a human being, but they are human.

So is my hair, but there's nothing wrong with cutting it or shaving it off my face.

 

[Immanuel]

This is all I am getting from the link.

"When the lives of the unborn are snuffed out, they often feel pain, pain that is long and agonizing."

President Ronald Reagan
to National Religious Broadcasters,
New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984


President Ronald Reagan
to National Religious Broadcasters,
New York Times, Jan. 31, 1984
That statement by President Reagan was denied by some!Yes, but, then it was confirmed as accurate by a well-documented statement from an auspicious group of professors, including pain specialists and two past presidents of the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology. The text of their letter follows:

February 13, 1984

President Ronald Reagan
The White House
Washington, DC

Mr. President:

As physicians, we, the undersigned, are pleased to associate ourselves with you in drawing the attention of people across the nation to the humanity and sensitivity of the human unborn

That the unborn, the prematurely born, and the newborn of the human species is a highly complex, sentient, functioning, individual organism is established scientific fact. That the human unborn and newly born do respond to stimuli is also established beyond any reasonable doubt.

The ability to feel pain and respond to it is clearly not a phenomenon that develops de novo at birth. Indeed, much of enlightened modern obstetrical practice and procedure seeks to minimize sensory deprivation of, and sensory insult to, the fetus during, at, and after birth. Over the last 18 years, real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG (electrocardiogram) and fetal EEG (electroencephalogram) have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound. That the fetus responds to changes in light intensity within the womb, to heat, to cold, and to taste (by altering the chemical nature of the fluid swallowed by the fetus) has been exquisitely documented in the pioneering work of the late Sir William Liley -- the father of fetology.

Observations of the fetal electrocardiogram and the increase in fetal movements in saline abortions indicate that the fetus experiences discomfort as it dies. Indeed, one doctor who, the New York Times wrote, "conscientiously performs" saline abortions stated, "When you inject the saline, you often see an increase in fetal movements, it´s horrible."

We state categorically that no finding of modern fetology invalidates the remarkable conclusion drawn after a lifetime of research by the late Professor Arnold Gesell of Yale University. In "The Embryology of Behavior: The Beginnings of the Human Mind" (1945, Harper Bros.), Dr. Gesell wrote, "and so by the close of the first trimester the fetus is a sentient, moving being. We need not speculate as to the nature of his psychic attributes, but we may assert that the organization of his psychosomatic self is well under way."

Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground.

Respectfully,

Long list of signers names left off. Those who are interested can follow the link to get them.

That letter simply confirms that the President, the signers of the letter AND at least one abortionist believe that the fetus can feel pain. I see no argument involved stating that this is a reason for making abortions illegal. At best, it can be described as being in opposition to the pro-choice argument that states that "since the fetus cannot feel pain abortion should remain legal."

Here is an article that I scanned quickly from a pro-choice site that seems to be interesting. I did not see that it argued "since there is no pain abortion should be legal", but it does make the opposite argument to the above one by the President and the doctors signing the letter:

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

Note: I saw several pro-life articles dealing with fetal pain. Since fetal pain is not my line of debate and makes little difference to me, I am not going to search each one for the argument. I am sure, if you like we can have a "which came first the chicken or the egg" kind of argument. I have no desire to waste my time with it, so, I will simply say, who cares you win that one.

Further note: the pro-choice article seems kind of interesting. Might be worth the read.

Immie

 

[arKangel]

Abortion Care Study Day, 28 April 2008 - Consensus Statement | Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists

Recommendations for consideration:

1. PCOs should ensure that national and local tariffs are agreed for abortion and contraception services within contracts, which include costs for the whole care pathway, including counselling, support, training and clinical governance, particularly clinical audit. In discussing commissioning we recommend that the Department of Health, with the support of the RCOG agrees a number of performance indicators for abortion services.
2. The RCOG should work with the Department of Health to produce a best practice model for world class commissioning in sexual and reproductive health services and particularly in the provision of abortion services 11.
3. PCO commissioners should work with all local providers of sexual health care and other stake holders to develop local and regional Sexual Health Networks, which include the provision of abortion care.
4. Those leading Sexual Health Networks should agree a common set of key measures and establish sources of data which will facilitate the assessment and comparison of quality in abortion service provision.

Lots of money in the global baby butcher cartel.

The RCOG, in their own words are committed to financially benifitting from as many dead babies as they can.

The "study" is merely propaganda.

 

[Ravi]

I never said it existed as a fetus before conception.. I said it was human as a human egg and a human sperm even before conception. This might be a little too deep for you.

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

I hope you aren't wasting all those little human beings.

 

[sangha]

Long list of signers names left off. Those who are interested can follow the link to get them.

That letter simply confirms that the President, the signers of the letter AND at least one abortionist believe that the fetus can feel pain. I see no argument involved stating that this is a reason for making abortions illegal. At best, it can be described as being in opposition to the pro-choice argument that states that "since the fetus cannot feel pain abortion should remain legal."

SO you think Reagan just said this for no reason at all, and it had nothing to do with politics?

And once again you repeat the lie that it's pro-choicers pushing the argument, even though I posted a link to a law that requires that women getting an abortion be informed of the pain the fetus feels.

Here is an article that I scanned quickly from a pro-choice site that seems to be interesting. I did not see that it argued "since there is no pain abortion should be legal", but it does make the opposite argument to the above one by the President and the doctors signing the letter:

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

And why do you think the THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK wrote that article?

Do you really think that the pro-life Reagan and the THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK are speaking out about this and it has nothing to do with politics?

Note: I saw several pro-life articles dealing with fetal pain. Since fetal pain is not my line of debate and makes little difference to me, I am not going to search each one for the argument. I am sure, if you like we can have a "which came first the chicken or the egg" kind of argument. I have no desire to waste my time with it, so, I will simply say, who cares you win that one.

Further note: the pro-choice article seems kind of interesting. Might be worth the read.

Immie[/QUOTE]

 

[sangha]

It's not too deep. It is too dumb

Before conception, there is no fetus, so it can not "exist as a fetus"

You're the first adult I have ever met that doesn't know that conception comes before the fetus

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

I hope you aren't wasting all those little human beings.

I hope he is wasting them. The alternative is that he's using them for their intended purpose

 

[AllieBaba]

A human egg and a human sperm cell is not a human.

They are not a human being, but they are human.

So is my hair, but there's nothing wrong with cutting it or shaving it off my face.

When it falls out on its own, does it continue to live and develop? No? Then it's not the same.

 

[AllieBaba]

Once more, I never said it existed as a fetus before conception. Your needle is stuck. . I said it was always human. We are always human even before conception. The fetus was a human egg and a human sperm. Humans go through many stages in life. A fetus is just one stage. You are a human "being" even before you are a fetus.

I was right. This is over your head.

I hope you aren't wasting all those little human beings.

I hope he is wasting them. The alternative is that he's using them for their intended purpose

and if he did, I'm sure you'd be first in line to wipe them off the face of the earth before they got too big.

 

[arKangel]

oh yeah, for the elitists who insist that they can make up their definitions on the fly...

ba·by (bā'b&#275
n. pl. ba·bies
1. A very young child; an infant.
2. An unborn child; a fetus.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The Developing Human Being
By Keith Moore, and T.V.N. Persaud
7th edition, 2003

From an introductory definition section:

“Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (spermatozoon) from a male. Cell division, cell migration, programmed cell death, differentiation, growth, and cell rearrangement transform the fertilized oocyte, a highly specialized, totipotent cell – a zygote – into a multicellular human being. Although most developmental changes occur during the embryonic and fetal periods, important changes occur during later periods of development: infancy, childhood, adolescence, and early adulthood. Development does not stop at birth. Important changes, in addition to growth, occur after birth (e.g., development of teeth and female breasts). The brain triples in weight between birth and 16 years; most developmental changes are completed by the age of 25. Although it is customary to divide human development into prenatal (before birth) and postnatal (after birth) periods, birth is merely a dramatic event during development resulting in a change in environment.” (p. 2)

“Zygote. This cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm during fertilization. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” (p. 2)

Silly pinkos.

 

[sangha]

They are not a human being, but they are human.

So is my hair, but there's nothing wrong with cutting it or shaving it off my face.

When it falls out on its own, does it continue to live and develop? No? Then it's not the same.

Fetuses don't grown on their own either. Fetuses need a womb, just as hair needs a follicle

 

[sangha]

I hope you aren't wasting all those little human beings.

I hope he is wasting them. The alternative is that he's using them for their intended purpose

and if he did, I'm sure you'd be first in line to wipe them off the face of the earth before they got too big.

But he's not, so I'm wondering who is wiping the little sperms off of your face

 

[Immanuel]

Long list of signers names left off. Those who are interested can follow the link to get them.

That letter simply confirms that the President, the signers of the letter AND at least one abortionist believe that the fetus can feel pain. I see no argument involved stating that this is a reason for making abortions illegal. At best, it can be described as being in opposition to the pro-choice argument that states that "since the fetus cannot feel pain abortion should remain legal."

SO you think Reagan just said this for no reason at all, and it had nothing to do with politics?

And once again you repeat the lie that it's pro-choicers pushing the argument, even though I posted a link to a law that requires that women getting an abortion be informed of the pain the fetus feels.

Here is an article that I scanned quickly from a pro-choice site that seems to be interesting. I did not see that it argued "since there is no pain abortion should be legal", but it does make the opposite argument to the above one by the President and the doctors signing the letter:

THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK

And why do you think the THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK wrote that article?

Do you really think that the pro-life Reagan and the THE PRO-CHOICE ACTION NETWORK are speaking out about this and it has nothing to do with politics?

Note: I saw several pro-life articles dealing with fetal pain. Since fetal pain is not my line of debate and makes little difference to me, I am not going to search each one for the argument. I am sure, if you like we can have a "which came first the chicken or the egg" kind of argument. I have no desire to waste my time with it, so, I will simply say, who cares you win that one.

Further note: the pro-choice article seems kind of interesting. Might be worth the read.

Immie

So, I see you want to go with the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" argument. Didn't figure you really cared about substance.

By the way, I can turn the Reagan comment right back on you.

Why do you think he made that comment? Duh, because choicers came up with the "the fetus doesn't feel any pain" excuse.

Following your "quotes" are difficult in that post. I'm trying to fix them.

Do I really think there is no political basis for the argument? No, of course there is. The question is which side used it first.

even though I posted a link to a law that requires that women getting an abortion be informed of the pain the fetus feel

And, ah, what link was that? I went to the only link you provided for me and that was the letter to Reagan. For the record, I don't read all of your posts nor do I take the time to read all of your whiny links that point to nothing at all.

And once again you repeat the lie that it's pro-choicers pushing the argument

Um, you might want to wake up and read the OP. That is exactly the argument that the OP is making, if not HB would never have started this thread. And as far as I can tell, HB is a pro-choicer.

Immature people can claim that everyone that disagrees with them is a liar, but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it only makes you look bad.

Immie

 

[AllieBaba]

So is my hair, but there's nothing wrong with cutting it or shaving it off my face.

When it falls out on its own, does it continue to live and develop? No? Then it's not the same.

Fetuses don't grown on their own either. Fetuses need a womb, just as hair needs a follicle

God you're simple.

Yes, I understand which is why I said "when it falls out on its OWN". Do you get the parallel? When a baby is ready to be born and it's born, then it continues to develop. When hair falls out on its own, it doesn't, nor does it have the potential to. No matter what you do for that hair, it's not alive.

Get it?

 

[sangha]

Long list of signers names left off. Those who are interested can follow the link to get them.

That letter simply confirms that the President, the signers of the letter AND at least one abortionist believe that the fetus can feel pain. I see no argument involved stating that this is a reason for making abortions illegal. At best, it can be described as being in opposition to the pro-choice argument that states that "since the fetus cannot feel pain abortion should remain legal."

SO you think Reagan just said this for no reason at all, and it had nothing to do with politics?

And once again you repeat the lie that it's pro-choicers pushing the argument, even though I posted a link to a law that requires that women getting an abortion be informed of the pain the fetus feels.





Note: I saw several pro-life articles dealing with fetal pain. Since fetal pain is not my line of debate and makes little difference to me, I am not going to search each one for the argument. I am sure, if you like we can have a "which came first the chicken or the egg" kind of argument. I have no desire to waste my time with it, so, I will simply say, who cares you win that one.

Further note: the pro-choice article seems kind of interesting. Might be worth the read.

Immie

So, I see you want to go with the "which came first, the chicken or the egg" argument. Didn't figure you really cared about substance.

Either show me where I asked "Which came first" or admit you're just making stuff up because you can't debate what I actually said

By the way, I can turn the Reagan comment right back on you.

Why do you think he made that comment? Duh, because choicers came up with the "the fetus doesn't feel any pain" excuse.

Umm, no. As I proved with a link to a law that was passed, it's the pro-life crowd who has argued that the pain a fetus feels is a reason to ban abortions. That's why you can't post ANY EVIDENCE to support your claim that pro-choice people think "It's OK to abort because a fetus feels no pain"

Following your "quotes" are difficult in that post. I'm trying to fix them.

Do I really think there is no political basis for the argument? No, of course there is. The question is which side used it first.

even though I posted a link to a law that requires that women getting an abortion be informed of the pain the fetus feel

And, ah, what link was that? I went to the only link you provided for me and that was the letter to Reagan. For the record, I don't read all of your posts nor do I take the time to read all of your whiny links that point to nothing at all.

I posted another link. In this thread. It's not my fault if you don't have the balls to read about the fact

And once again you repeat the lie that it's pro-choicers pushing the argument

Um, you might want to wake up and read the OP. That is exactly the argument that the OP is making, if not HB would never have started this thread. And as far as I can tell, HB is a pro-choicer.

Wrong. The article does not have one pro-choicer saying that it's OK to abort because a fetus feels no pain. Pro-choicers think it's OK to abort after 24 weeks EVEN THOUGH the fetus can feel pain, so it's absurd to argue that pro-choicers think the absence of pain makes it OK to abort.

Immature people can claim that everyone that disagrees with them is a liar, but that doesn't make it so. In fact, it only makes you look bad.

Mature people don't make wild claims and then completely fail to back it up with evidence. Mature people have the courage of their convictions, and don't run away from their own words.

If you won't stand up for yourself, you'll fall for anything